barrett
All Pro
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/3078/for-texans-cbs-out-with-backpedal-in-with-shuffle
I'll be looking for this on Sunday for sure.
I'll be looking for this on Sunday for sure.
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Super Awesome Technique info about Gibbs' DB's
- Thread starter barrett
- Start date
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
There is more than one way to skin a cat, and our cat skinning the last seven years in the secondary didn't get it done.
I like the buy-in from Quin, but this fan base is beyond buy-in, we need results.
I like the buy-in from Quin, but this fan base is beyond buy-in, we need results.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
when your knees are in front of you, your hips are closed. You backpedal with closed hips. When you turn and run you open your hips by getting your knees outside of your body. Coaches say that the hips don't lie and your feet always follow your hips so you concentrate on rotating your hips moreso than moving your feet. Some guys can't open up and turn and run as fast as others
Porky
Hall of Fame
eriadoc
Texan-American
I don't see that at all. With this method, you can easily move left or right. So out patterns have no special advantage against this at all, and the crossing pattern is likely only going to mess up the guy that doesn't have his assignment correct in his head.
If I'm understanding what they're saying correctly, then this method will keep the players on the balls of their feet the same, but with minimal separation from the ground. That results in less body rise/body fall, which makes it easier to move laterally, keeps your balance better, and makes it easier to turn and move your center.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
if you are not backpeddling you are turned one way or another. On choice routes a wr is always going to choose to run to the side of the field the cb isn't facing. It only takes a second to create space in this league.
I have an example, but I don't think it's suitable for this forum, LOL!
Anyway, I remember reading about Sean Smith (Utah)... why his stiff hips do not allow him to open up to turn/change direction. Why he reverts to the shuffle and bail technique. But that allows the receiver to get separation as Vinny had mentioned.
And why some thought he would do better at safety.
Porky
Hall of Fame
Again excuse my ignorance here, but on the outside receivers, what if the DB played more to the outside shoulder of the receiver so that it almost forces the WR to take the inside position?
Then you give up the quick slant route easily, for one!
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
FWIW, Sean Smith has beaten 1st rounder Vontae Davis out for the starting CB spot opposite Will Allen.
Just thought I'd throw a little meaningless info out there.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I see the difference in what was in my head and what they're saying. They are turned sideways - I remember seeing this now. Of course, that raises a couple questions for me, but I'll work those out on the mat.
FWIW, Sean Smith has beaten 1st rounder Vontae Davis out for the starting CB spot opposite Will Allen.
Just thought I'd throw a little meaningless info out there.
I read that one awhile ago!
Just thought I throw out the same!
Porky
Hall of Fame
What if you have safety or LB help inside?
That can be good, for example, when I watched Patrick Chung play the rover for the Ducks last year. He would hover close to the LOS and switched quickly to the outside receiver (and more often than not, he will make a good tackle for a very short gain).
However, that would be double team.
And a proficient passing attack won't go into the double team.
It will go elsewhere, looking for a one-on-one situation surely!
Porky
Hall of Fame
That can be good, for example, when I watched Patrick Chung play the rover for the Ducks last year. He would hover close to the LOS and switched quickly to the outside receiver (and more often than not, he will make a good tackle for a very short gain).
However, that would be double team.
And a proficient passing attack won't go into the double team.
It will go elsewhere, looking for a one-on-one situation surely!
Ok then we're doomed!
Ok then we're doomed!
It's not nearly as bad as that!
The rover still has an eye on the RB, so if you play it this way, you don't necessarily have to commit to a double team.
Just that your rover needs to be fast in case the RB go the other way.
Ehhr, we don't have a super fast safety either, LOL!
AnthonyE
Lurker
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
Drew Hill used to eat up CBs with this. He would take one step inside and then break outside and next thing you know....1st Down!!
michaelm
vox nihili
LOL, you're a few months early, Mr. Grinch!!!
barrett
All Pro
You have pinpointed me actually. When it comes to the nitty gritty of what the coaches are actually asking the players to do my little football light saber (go ahead guys, run with it if you'd like) gets glowing something fierce!
I'm so hungry for this kind of stuff. The more I learn about what the team is trying to accomplish the more I enjoy the games and rooting for the team. (and the more accurate my analysis becomes.)
it may not be long but it sure is skinny
Malloy
Hall of Fame
Some folks light sabers are bigger than others.
And the 'Coffee on the screen' award goes to...
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Some folks light sabers are bigger than others.
Yeah, mine's in the background to the right.
W
whiskeyrbl
Guest
I think you would ultimately try to stay on the inside shoulder forcing the reciever towards the sideline so there is less field of play for the reciever to be in. However I guess it all depends on the defensive coverage assignments at any given time ( zone... cover two... mike blitz and so on). just my .02
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
I talked to a player some about this subject. His version of it was more like what Bush was talking about.
In the past, they were taught, right away, to immediately go into their backpeddle. From a mechanical standpoint, it isn't very fluid, and it gets players very defensive right away, and for some types of plays puts them in an immediate disadvantage for some routes when you are facing a WR.
The shuffle technique, as taught, allows the DBs to more fluidly follow the WR--the DBs have to be disciplined in using it, but the theory is that it allows the corners to use the athleticism that they already have.
In the past, they were taught, right away, to immediately go into their backpeddle. From a mechanical standpoint, it isn't very fluid, and it gets players very defensive right away, and for some types of plays puts them in an immediate disadvantage for some routes when you are facing a WR.
The shuffle technique, as taught, allows the DBs to more fluidly follow the WR--the DBs have to be disciplined in using it, but the theory is that it allows the corners to use the athleticism that they already have.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
That's something that I like to hear. Something I never saw with Richard Smith's "push the square peg into the round hole" approach to coaching defense. Our CBs for the most part are young, but their biggest strength is that all of them have very good athleticism. Bennett, Reeves, and Molden in particuar are 3 tall guys who can run which is a much coveted quality in CBs. Now hopefully Gibbs can make these boys play over their heads!!!
The shuffle technique was popular for quite awhile. It helps the DBs who don't have flex hips to turn. But it also has its own disadvantages. It's not like we hadn't use it last year. We did.
I pulled up the Dolphins game tape. And there was Reeves in the shuffle, on the outside shoulder of the receiver.
They use that technique to help Reeves locate the ball better.
On that certain play, it helped take away the outside route (supposedly).
But clearly, it gave up the inside easily.
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
My comment was in regards to others, nothing positive can be written about our D ever without someone going all Moriarty on the negativity.
There were a couple of examples of a different way the offense can beat the shuffle easily in the Jets game.
I saw it but then forgot about it; now I don't remember the specific!
Both time our CB stayed on the inside shoulder of the WR.
The receiver would put a little move, faking to the inside, then they would turn to the outside and were wide open.
It took too long for our CBs to turn around to cover their men.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Ok, saw this play as I was rewatching the game and remembered this thread.
Cue up the DVR and go to 10:45 mark of the 3rd quarter with the score Jacksonville 17, Houston 21. Watch the play and then watch the replay isolation. It is 2nd and 5 on our 14 yard line and we can clearly see this new technique being used at the top of the screen. Instead of a backpedal where you can face the QB and drive on the ball or wr cut, we have Bennett using this turn and run technique. The WR makes a simple out move and Bennett is instantly facing the wrong direction. By the time he recovers the pass is complete and it's 1st and Goal from the 1.
Cue up the DVR and go to 10:45 mark of the 3rd quarter with the score Jacksonville 17, Houston 21. Watch the play and then watch the replay isolation. It is 2nd and 5 on our 14 yard line and we can clearly see this new technique being used at the top of the screen. Instead of a backpedal where you can face the QB and drive on the ball or wr cut, we have Bennett using this turn and run technique. The WR makes a simple out move and Bennett is instantly facing the wrong direction. By the time he recovers the pass is complete and it's 1st and Goal from the 1.
That's not the first time I saw those pathetic shuffles.
In all 3 games we played this season, the DBs were constantly had.
They need to scratch this shuffle dance unless they can somehow coach them up to play beyond their talent level, which is a very LOOOOOOOOONG stretch of imagination!
Vinny
shiny happy fan
since they played the replay and isolated the coverage this is a great capture if you want to see a fatal flaw in this style/technique. Frankly I haven't been impressed with the secondary as a whole since Gibbs has taken over, but no DL (outside of Mario) makes it tough to come to hard conclusions.That's not the first time I saw those pathetic shuffles.
In all 3 games we played this season, the DBs were constantly had.
They need to scratch this shuffle dance unless they can somehow coach them up to play beyond their talent level, which is a very LOOOOOOOOONG stretch of imagination!
I guess one of the positives is that they can be in position for an INT if the DL can generate pressure and force a mistake by the QB.
But that has not materialized!
This technique is something that will take some time for the players to learn and get used to. Right now they're still thinking about it because it's not natural to them. For their entire careers they've been taught to backpeddle, then break or run, so that's what they do instinctively. Give them at least a little time to get used to it. Once it becomes natural to them, I think we may see some improvement.
You saw this last year with Slaton and the ZBS. He initially kept following his blockers rather than splitting them with the one cut. Once he started figuring it out, he looked like a star. In his first 3 games this season, he's again following blockers instead of splitting them, and is hesitant to make that one cut. I'm not sure what happened, but he looks indecisive all of a sudden.
You saw this last year with Slaton and the ZBS. He initially kept following his blockers rather than splitting them with the one cut. Once he started figuring it out, he looked like a star. In his first 3 games this season, he's again following blockers instead of splitting them, and is hesitant to make that one cut. I'm not sure what happened, but he looks indecisive all of a sudden.
NO! We used it last year already; there's nothing new about this technique!
Vinny
shiny happy fan
By the time the team is out of the playoffs we will be ready to start our winning streak. It's just how we roll.
I thought this was Gibbs' technique that he's teaching them? He wasn't hired until this season.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Come on man, what kind of fan are you? We just need a couple more years to get to the playoffs is all. Charlie Casserly is responsible for everything you see out there and most of what you'll see in the next year and a half. He's still phoning in picks that hurt us!
Or maybe we just replaced "sucks" with "Doesn't suck as much but still sucks".
It's one of those I'm sure.
No, this technique is as old as dirt!
But given that we only have half a real CB, it will have to do, I guess.
It does help the CB to see the QB and the ball better than they would otherwise.
The outside CB could release off his man to help out the nickel back and vice versa.
On the other hand, it is quite similar to the 7-10 yd cushion a lot of folks on here loath to death!
silvrhand
All Pro
I guess it all depends on how comfortable the player is, and what works for each individual. I could see on inside routes how this makes you more likely to get a jump on the ball, but on outs, and outs and up I would think you are really in a bad position as you are shuffling you can't really just stop your motion turn outside with the receiver. Seess like to me you'd have to spin around and how that you can get to him quickly, and then if he cuts on the up, out of the route I would think you are really behind then.
Shuffling would definitely put you in a better power position, but I suspect once receivers start to see this and learn where to get you to turn before they break it'll start eating you up. From my experience it's all about how well the receiver can tell when you are making your transition so he can set you up to make his break when you are out of position.
Deon never seemed to have a problem with backpedalling?
TimeKiller
Guest
OH I guess we should just watch film of Deion Sanders then and try to emulate what he was....
....that's not a bad idea....
