Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!

All hail the death of the 10 yard CB cushion

Reeves is gonna leave hickees all over the wideouts. See him going after that nippee?

610x.jpg
 
In related news, they are working with Reeves on his technique. If the kid can get better at his technique (like getting his head around to look for the ball) he could be one heck of a CB.
 
Jackie Chiles said:
Sounds good to me but I'll believe it when I see it.
Click to expand...

What's not to believe? When you change defensive coordinators you usually change schemes... I like the way the defense is 'sounding' so far. Aggressive, no more read-and-react, and now no more 10 yard cushions for the corners.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Reeves is gonna leave hickees all over the wideouts. See him going after that nippee?

610x.jpg
Click to expand...

This is the kind of scenario where, if it were to happen in Madden, you would throw your remote at the TV screaming "That's ****ing b*******!!!1! That would Never happen!" Still can't believe Wayne came down with the ball, Reeves had amazing coverage on that.
 
superdave532 said:
This is the kind of scenario where, if it were to happen in Madden, you would throw your remote at the TV screaming "That's ****ing b*******!!!1! That would Never happen!" Still can't believe Wayne came down with the ball, Reeves had amazing coverage on that.
Click to expand...

reminds me of the movie "the replacements" when they put all that stick-um on the guys gloves.
 
At least he's aware that cornerback doesn't mean all the QB sees in the corner is Reeves' back.

How did the 10 yard cushion idea ever get through to any team ever, ever?
 
TimeKiller said:
At least he's aware that cornerback doesn't mean all the QB sees in the corner is Reeves' back.

How did the 10 yard cushion idea ever get through to any team ever, ever?
Click to expand...


I was custom designed with teams having far-sighted CBs wearing non-flexible neck braces.
 
TimeKiller said:
At least he's aware that cornerback doesn't mean all the QB sees in the corner is Reeves' back.

How did the 10 yard cushion idea ever get through to any team ever, ever?
Click to expand...

Slow footed CB's letting slant routes go for 50 yd TD's.

As with all defensive schemes, you have to build on your strengths and try to circumvent your weaknesses.

In some situations, it is appropriate for the CB to give some cushion. But 3rd and 2 is not that situation. I honestly could not believe how many times our CB's were lined up 10 yds deep in 3rd and short situations last year.
 
This defense appears to have someone leading it who knows what to do.

Now it's just gotta' become a genuine reality on the playing field.
 
Just talking or does this imply Hoke was not a technique guy?

“(Gibbs) is a technique freak, and that’s what I need,” Reeves said. “I need to get a whole lot better with my technique, and I think he is going to challenge me at that.”
Click to expand...

Pretty hard to point to any DB's getting better under Hoke. Interesting to see how Reeves and Bennett perform this year.
 
bah007 said:
Slow footed CB's letting slant routes go for 50 yd TD's.

As with all defensive schemes, you have to build on your strengths and try to circumvent your weaknesses.

In some situations, it is appropriate for the CB to give some cushion. But 3rd and 2 is not that situation. I honestly could not believe how many times our CB's were lined up 10 yds deep in 3rd and short situations last year.
Click to expand...

More times than not.
 
y'all do realize David had the KC Chiefs secondary ranked 5th in the league for pass defense? If he can do that for the Chiefs just imagine what he can do for the Texans :texflag:
 
beerlover said:
y'all do realize David had the KC Chiefs secondary ranked 5th in the league for pass defense? If he can do that for the Chiefs just imagine what he can do for the Texans :texflag:
Click to expand...

In what catagory?

Their defense as a unit was horrible against the pass and the run.
 
I am looking forward to seeing a legitimate NFL defense rather than the Han van Meegeren-esque product that was rolled out under Richard Smith.
 
infantrycak said:
Just talking or does this imply Hoke was not a technique guy?



Pretty hard to point to any DB's getting better under Hoke. Interesting to see how Reeves and Bennett perform this year.
Click to expand...

And a few of them did the face guarding crap. It seems that Hoke had a small part in it. We'll see.
 
I don't want our corners looking for the ball. I want them to read the body and eyes of the WR face to face not from several feet away when they finally catch up. I think this was part of Philip B. problem when he was here. He was constantly trying to catch up to receiver. Our present crew is physical enough to jam the WR then stride for stride down field. Me likey!
 
We've got 3 tall physical CBs who can run in Reeves, Bennett, and Molden. IMO given the personnel we have in the secondary we should be able to run a bump and run man coverage defense like the Packers have employed with success using Charles Woodson and Al Harris.

Sure, there will be the occasional big play against us. But there will also be the big play made by us and the 3 and out drives forced by us. Add in a healthy Dunta (if he stops screwing around about his contract) and some nice nickel candidates in Quinn and McCain I think Gibbs will be able to do some nice work with this crop.
 
bah007 said:
Slow footed CB's letting slant routes go for 50 yd TD's.

As with all defensive schemes, you have to build on your strengths and try to circumvent your weaknesses.

In some situations, it is appropriate for the CB to give some cushion. But 3rd and 2 is not that situation. I honestly could not believe how many times our CB's were lined up 10 yds deep in 3rd and short situations last year.
Click to expand...

I get your point about trying to hide weakness but when weakness is abundant and strengths are very few....eventually don't you stop trying to compensate and just play some real football? I actually can't remember the corners ever jamming a WR and I've been to almost every game in the last 2 years. I guess it's just me but after however long of that I would just say, "f it, try to do what Asomugha/Bailey does and if you get burned well, I guess you won't get the same contract they get."
 
HOU-TEX said:
In what catagory?

Their defense as a unit was horrible against the pass and the run.
Click to expand...

clarification - 2007 5 Kansas City Chiefs 188.9

in 08 they had to go with a pair of rookie late rd. CB's also lost Jared Allen so I that stat has some exceptional factors that taint the #'s. hardly David's fault actually reflects his ability to develop talent (08 draft- 2nd rd. Brandon Flowers, 3rd. DaJuan Morgan, 5th rd. Brandon Carr).

moving forward to the Texans with Dunta Robinson, Jacques Reeves, Fred Bennett & Antwaun Molden already in the mix they added two more db's in the late rounds to develop (4th rd, Gover Quin, 6th rd. Brice McCain) that David Gibbs secondary rivals or surpasses 5th in the league yards allowed in 09 IMO :cool:
 
TimeKiller said:
I get your point about trying to hide weakness but when weakness is abundant and strengths are very few....eventually don't you stop trying to compensate and just play some real football? I actually can't remember the corners ever jamming a WR and I've been to almost every game in the last 2 years. I guess it's just me but after however long of that I would just say, "f it, try to do what Asomugha/Bailey does and if you get burned well, I guess you won't get the same contract they get."
Click to expand...

If you do what your coaches tell you to do and you get burned, it's not completely your fault.

If they tell you to sit back and you jam instead and get burned, you're fired.

Last year our coaches would rather give up 8 yards on every single play than risk giving up a 60 yd TD. I disagree with that strategy. But the fact remains that, as a player, if you don't do what your coaches tell you to (even if they are wrong) it won't end well for you.
 
badboy said:
No. I do not.
Click to expand...

It's called pass interference when they do not locate the ball and strictly play the reciever.

Yes, look at the recievers body language, but at some point they still need to find the ball. I don't even see how thats debatable. Especially since veteran recievers will display false body language to fool inexperienced CB's.

Also, I'm not sure how you expect them to ever get interceptions not looking for the football.
 
TimeKiller said:
I get your point about trying to hide weakness but when weakness is abundant and strengths are very few....eventually don't you stop trying to compensate and just play some real football? I actually can't remember the corners ever jamming a WR and I've been to almost every game in the last 2 years. I guess it's just me but after however long of that I would just say, "f it, try to do what Asomugha/Bailey does and if you get burned well, I guess you won't get the same contract they get."
Click to expand...

bah007 said:
If you do what your coaches tell you to do and you get burned, it's not completely your fault.

If they tell you to sit back and you jam instead and get burned, you're fired.

Last year our coaches would rather give up 8 yards on every single play than risk giving up a 60 yd TD. I disagree with that strategy. But the fact remains that, as a player, if you don't do what your coaches tell you to (even if they are wrong) it won't end well for you.
Click to expand...

And hidden in all of this is the question, if the HC was watching the same games for the past 2 years that we were, why were these tactics not adjusted? The routine explanation always is "lack of talent." The "cushions" totalled up in yards allowed consistent plodding of the Os toward our goal line, apparently more than the big play "burns," and virtually eliminated the oportunity for big D plays. "Lack of talent" could easily been a more convincing argument against the "cushion."
 
badboy said:
No. I do not.
Click to expand...

Polo said:
It's called pass interference when they do not locate the ball and strictly play the reciever.

Yes, look at the recievers body language, but at some point they still need to find the ball. I don't even see how thats debatable. Especially since veteran recievers will display false body language to fool inexperienced CB's.

Also, I'm not sure how you expect them to ever get interceptions not looking for the football.
Click to expand...

If you play the WR instead of the ball you will end up like Steff

6.jpg
 
Polo said:
Especially since veteran recievers will display false body language to fool inexperienced CB's.

Also, I'm not sure how you expect them to ever get interceptions not looking for the football.
Click to expand...

I read an article from some CB's viewpoint on how you can't watch Randy Moss' eyes because they are docile until the ball is in his hands already. When you're as good of a reciever as he is AND you can play with such small, miniscule things as eyelid openness....damn.

Hey, Reeves got a few int's last year...so it's possible to have no clue where the ball is until it hits you in the chest hahaha....:cool:

bah007 said:
If you do what your coaches tell you to do and you get burned, it's not completely your fault.

If they tell you to sit back and you jam instead and get burned, you're fired.

Last year our coaches would rather give up 8 yards on every single play than risk giving up a 60 yd TD. I disagree with that strategy. But the fact remains that, as a player, if you don't do what your coaches tell you to (even if they are wrong) it won't end well for you.
Click to expand...
Yeah, you're probably right. I guess I'd rather find out if I'm good enough to make a play than if my mouth is wide enough to swallow everything the offense is sticking out there.

Really my point is you just have to go out there and do it. No excuses, no compensating, just ball. If you look bad, at least you won't look bad while trying to compensate for how bad you are.

CloakNNNdagger said:
And hidden in all of this is the question, if the HC was watching the same games for the past 2 years that we were, why were these tactics not adjusted? The routine explanation always is "lack of talent." The "cushions" totalled up in yards allowed consistent plodding of the Os toward our goal line, apparently more than the big play "burns," and virtually eliminated the oportunity for big D plays. "Lack of talent" could easily been a more convincing argument against the "cushion."
Click to expand...
Very well said.
 
Polo said:
It's called pass interference when they do not locate the ball and strictly play the reciever.

Yes, look at the recievers body language, but at some point they still need to find the ball. I don't even see how thats debatable. Especially since veteran recievers will display false body language to fool inexperienced CB's.

Also, I'm not sure how you expect them to ever get interceptions not looking for the football.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they didn't ever look up this last season, and its painful to watch. If they turn their head ever, we may have doubled our INT's. Thats not alot, but its a start.
 
BigBull17 said:
Yeah, they didn't ever look up this last season, and its painful to watch. If they turn their head ever, we may have doubled our INT's. Thats not alot, but its a start.
Click to expand...

Yeah...Besides his total lack of physicality locating the ball is another one Jaque's weaknesses..

Speaking of playing bump and run, I do not see that as a good strategy for Jaque Reeves, becuause as I mentioned, dude lacks physicality in every respect...
 
Polo said:
Yeah...Besides his total lack of physicality locating the ball is another one Jaque's weaknesses..

Speaking of playing bump and run, I do not see that as a good strategy for Jaque Reeves, becuause as I mentioned, dude lacks physicality in every respect...
Click to expand...

Yep. He's a burner. He can run with almost anyone. He'll be good to have when we play Lee Eves this year, thought I have no clue what we do to T.O. He is to physical. Hope Bennett is up to the challenge.
 
Polo said:
It's called pass interference when they do not locate the ball and strictly play the reciever.

Yes, look at the recievers body language, but at some point they still need to find the ball. I don't even see how thats debatable. Especially since veteran recievers will display false body language to fool inexperienced CB's.

Also, I'm not sure how you expect them to ever get interceptions not looking for the football.
Click to expand...
Here's my thoughts Polo, a quick look back by a CB is all it takes for a stumble or misstep (see Reeves). Again, Buchannon had this problem. My understanding is it is only interference if the CB blocks the view of the WR or does not allow him access to catch the ball. More interference flags are thrown for the receiver getting there late and having to hit receiver to stop a score. And you are right my focus is not on INTs but breaking up the pass. While INTs are great, we've all seen a CB (Dunta for example) go for an INT only to miss and the WR go for yards. I am NOT saying never try, but I'd rather see a pass successfully defended than bye bye TD.

I also doubt we will have any inexperienced CB getting much time with game on the line this season. Even Moldin will have gone against our WRs and that is pretty valuable training. I believe that playing CB is very instinctive and the player just knows when the ball will be there most of the time. We have seen this over the years with many NFL greats. Just my two cents.
 
badboy said:
While INTs are great, we've all seen a CB (Dunta for example) go for an INT only to miss and the WR go for yards. I am NOT saying never try, but I'd rather see a pass successfully defended than bye bye TD.. We have seen this over the years with many NFL greats. Just my two cents.
Click to expand...

We've also seen (Dunta for example) not look back and adjust his arm an inch over to the ball to deflect it so it becomes a completion putting the other team in game winning field goal range. This isn't an either or equation. Knowing where the ball is helps on passes defensed, not just INT's. At the same time, yes the DB should not be getting out of position by concentrating too much on the ball.
 
badboy said:
Here's my thoughts Polo, a quick look back by a CB is all it takes for a stumble or misstep (see Reeves). Again, Buchannon had this problem. My understanding is it is only interference if the CB blocks the view of the WR or does not allow him access to catch the ball. More interference flags are thrown for the receiver getting there late and having to hit receiver to stop a score. And you are right my focus is not on INTs but breaking up the pass. While INTs are great, we've all seen a CB (Dunta for example) go for an INT only to miss and the WR go for yards. I am NOT saying never try, but I'd rather see a pass successfully defended than bye bye TD.

I also doubt we will have any inexperienced CB getting much time with game on the line this season. Even Moldin will have gone against our WRs and that is pretty valuable training. I believe that playing CB is very instinctive and the player just knows when the ball will be there most of the time. We have seen this over the years with many NFL greats. Just my two cents.
Click to expand...

Actions that constitute defensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver’s opportunity to make the catch.

(b) Playing through the back of a receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball.

(c) Grabbing a receiver’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass.

(d) Extending an arm across the body of a receiver thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, regardless of whether the defender is playing the ball.

(e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball.

(f) Hooking a receiver in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the receiver’s body to turn prior to the ball arriving.

http://www.footballscrimmage.com/nfl/pass-interference.shtml
 
Why did we even use a 10-Yard cushion? Our CBs ain't no Pro Bowlers that they can read and react within a split second and disrupt the passing play. We should just stick to the old and proven technique of man-on-man, works for me in NCAA Football 09 (at that, we should also try some CB blitzes!)

:gun: ~ What I'm doing during the offseason...
 
badboy said:
Here's my thoughts Polo, a quick look back by a CB is all it takes for a stumble or misstep (see Reeves). Again, Buchannon had this problem. My understanding is it is only interference if the CB blocks the view of the WR or does not allow him access to catch the ball. More interference flags are thrown for the receiver getting there late and having to hit receiver to stop a score.
Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken a CB can make incedental contact with a reciever as long as he clearly turns to locate the ball when it is in the air. Like if you accidentally bump the reciever as you are turning to find the ball as it is getting there Pass int. wont be called...But if you make contact with him as the ball is arriving without turning to find the ball they will let the hankie fly...


And you are right my focus is not on INTs but breaking up the pass. While INTs are great, we've all seen a CB (Dunta for example) go for an INT only to miss and the WR go for yards. I am NOT saying never try, but I'd rather see a pass successfully defended than bye bye TD.
Click to expand...

How many times did we see Jaque Reeves covering a guy like glue only to let a ball zip right by his helmet because he didn't turn to locate the ball?

When you are trying to make plays and are being aggressive you are going to occasionally give up big plays...It's the risk reward aspect and this conversation really leads into the defense we will be playing next year...If you don't like seeing defenders being aggressive and going for turnonvers and big plays then I think you will not like the Texans next year...

The days of playing it close to the cuff are over. The only way this defense works is if guys are jumping routes and reading the QB's eyes and locating the football when its in the air.

It does no good to blitz the QB only to have him float it up and the reciever grab it even though the DB was right with him but failed to locate the ball. That is what I'm tired of seeing. If you are a DB and cannot locate the football in the air then you are no good.


I also doubt we will have any inexperienced CB getting much time with game on the line this season. Even Moldin will have gone against our WRs and that is pretty valuable training. I believe that playing CB is very instinctive and the player just knows when the ball will be there most of the time. We have seen this over the years with many NFL greats. Just my two cents.
Click to expand...

Ok, this I agree with. But when you get that instincual feel that the ball is in the air, you still have to be able to turn and locate it....The only time I don't want DB's turning to locate the ball is if they are getting beat really bad...At that point their concern needs to be just on catching up to the reciever...
 
Polo said:
If I'm not mistaken a CB can make incedental contact with a reciever as long as he clearly turns to locate the ball when it is in the air. Like if you accidentally bump the reciever as you are turning to find the ball as it is getting there Pass int. wont be called...But if you make contact with him as the ball is arriving without turning to find the ball they will let the hankie fly... you are correct on incidental contact, but what we often see is the WR slowing up and the CB running into WR while CB tries to locate the ball.




How many times did we see Jaque Reeves covering a guy like glue only to let a ball zip right by his helmet because he didn't turn to locate the ball? Reeves is usually not stuck like glue due to prior defensive strategy. he is rushing to catch up and ball goes by him as he is too far off.

When you are trying to make plays and are being aggressive you are going to occasionally give up big plays...It's the risk reward aspect and this conversation really leads into the defense we will be playing next year...If you don't like seeing defenders being aggressive and going for turnonvers and big plays then I think you will not like the Texans next year... there are times at beginning of game or if you are way ahead (that is not our history) or way behind to take chances on INTs. An INT due to aggressiveness is cool. Not so coll to miss and lose points.

The days of playing it close to the cuff are over. The only way this defense works is if guys are jumping routes and reading the QB's eyes and locating the football when its in the air.

It does no good to blitz the QB only to have him float it up and the reciever grab it even though the DB was right with him but failed to locate the ball. That is what I'm tired of seeing. If you are a DB and cannot locate the football in the air then you are no good. Our defense will put a safety with the CB more and that is where I expect INTs to come from




Ok, this I agree with. But when you get that instincual feel that the ball is in the air, you still have to be able to turn and locate it....The only time I don't want DB's turning to locate the ball is if they are getting beat really bad...At that point their concern needs to be just on catching up to the reciever...
Click to expand...

Good debate and I enjoyed the discussion. I'm headed home. You guys be cool. Steve
 
Polo said:
Ok, this I agree with. But when you get that instincual feel that the ball is in the air, you still have to be able to turn and locate it....The only time I don't want DB's turning to locate the ball is if they are getting beat really bad...At that point their concern needs to be just on catching up to the reciever...
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing that some veteran DBs have an internal clock that gives them a strong feeling about when the ball may be in the air, but most DBs aren't just relying on "instinctual feel" to let them know when to turn for the ball. The one thing that will get a DB in serious trouble is looking back for the ball too early. It allows the receiver to get immediate separation, and often results in a big play.

Most DBs are following a receiver's eyes and body language, or have teammates and coaches yelling to them from the sideline that the ball is in flight.

I'm aware that some veteran receivers are good at disguising their facial cues when the ball is arriving, but there's also body language involved, which is harder to disguise.

It's also not pass interference to simply fail to turn around for the football, as long as no contact with the receiver is made past five yards. There is no such thing as "face guarding" in football.

Most DB coaches teach that you only look back for the ball in two cases:

1) When the DB is running stride for stride with the receiver in an interposed position between the quarterback and the receiver. For example, if he's covering a wideout on a post pattern and the WR makes his break toward the middle of the field, if the DB has inside position and is running stride for stride with the WR, it would be acceptable to look back for the ball at that point.

2) When the DB has a specific reason to believe the football is in the air and on the verge of arriving, based on an assessment of the receiver's eyes and body language, or a cue from sideline personnel that the ball is arriving.
 
Texsker said:
I'm not disputing that some veteran DBs have an internal clock that gives them a strong feeling about when the ball may be in the air, but most DBs aren't just relying on "instinctual feel" to let them know when to turn for the ball. The one thing that will get a DB in serious trouble is looking back for the ball too early. It allows the receiver to get immediate separation, and often results in a big play.

Most DBs are following a receiver's eyes and body language, or have teammates and coaches yelling to them from the sideline that the ball is in flight.

I'm aware that some veteran receivers are good at disguising their facial cues when the ball is arriving, but there's also body language involved, which is harder to disguise.

It's also not pass interference to simply fail to turn around for the football, as long as no contact with the receiver is made past five yards. There is no such thing as "face guarding" in football.

Most DB coaches teach that you only look back for the ball in two cases:

1) When the DB is running stride for stride with the receiver in an interposed position between the quarterback and the receiver. For example, if he's covering a wideout on a post pattern and the WR makes his break toward the middle of the field, if the DB has inside position and is running stride for stride with the WR, it would be acceptable to look back for the ball at that point.

2) When the DB has a specific reason to believe the football is in the air and on the verge of arriving, based on an assessment of the receiver's eyes and body language, or a cue from sideline personnel that the ball is arriving.
Click to expand...

Badboy mentioned instincts, and I was just commenting on his remark...

I'm not sure what you're debating or if you're debating... I don't really disagree with much you wrote...Good post...

Side note: The scenarios you listed pretty much apply to every route except a nine.

I don't see many scenarios when a CB can't turn to locate the ball besides a 9 or if they're getting
beat badly...


And no it's not pass interference to simply not locate the ball....Thats not what I said or meant...
 
Polo said:
Badboy mentioned instincts, and I was just commenting on his remark...

I'm not sure what you're debating or if you're debating... I don't really disagree with much you wrote...Good post...

And no it's not pass interference to simply not locate the ball....Thats not what I said or meant...
Click to expand...

Maybe I misinterpreted what you said. I was referring to your earlier post:

It's called pass interference when they do not locate the ball and strictly play the reciever.
Click to expand...
 
I hope we see our DL and our DBs getting their hands up a lot more than they have in the pass. A pass deflection at the line or by the WR is great and those can often lead to interceptions by another player. Maybe Shane Battier can give them some instructions and use his coverage against Kobe as an example. If you get your hand in their face it's hard to see the ball!
 
It wouldn't hurt if some of our CBs at least learned the concept of flailing their arms in the face of the WRs.

Here's a candid picture of David Gibbs' CB training exercises taken of one of his Kansas City Chiefs defenders, teaching this very technique.:

Sledding_SnowAngel_Michelle.jpg
 
infantrycak said:
Just talking or does this imply Hoke was not a technique guy?



Pretty hard to point to any DB's getting better under Hoke. Interesting to see how Reeves and Bennett perform this year.
Click to expand...

Did i just see Hoke and technique in the same sentence? Honestly I can't name one DB that got better or one of the young guys that developed under Hoke.

What has impressed me the most about seeing Reeves quotes in the offseason so far is that he seems very willing to put in time and is willing to be coached. I think those two will translate well going into this year.

I really wish we could've seen Molden in game time last year before he broke his ankle. I know he's got the measurables to be elite, and I'm fairly confident that Gibbs can coach him up. If we can get Bennett back on track, which I think we can, even if Dunta holds out we could possibly be 3 deep at CB.
 
Goldensilence said:
I really wish we could've seen Molden in game time last year before he broke his ankle. I know he's got the measurables to be elite, and I'm fairly confident that Gibbs can coach him up. If we can get Bennett back on track, which I think we can, even if Dunta holds out we could possibly be 3 deep at CB.
Click to expand...

I'm really excited about the depth of talent we have at CB, sure the production hasn't been great but with Molden, Bennet and Reeves we have some great size/speed athletes, throw in Dunta and Quinn's toughness and aggresion and McCain's insane speed and you have a lot of guys who could be impact defenders.

Hopefully Gibbs and the new scheme turn some of this talent into results.

I want some takeaways!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top