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Great win ... but we got lucky

jerek

jerek

Pro Hobbyist
We did a lot of great things today (AJ is unstoppable, some great defensive stands) and we were "good enough to win" ... but ...

Kerry Collins sucked today. He had just about all day to throw, overthrew a number of his receivers (some of whom would've been end zone had they made the catch) and just didn't make the kind of plays he has made for most of the season. I lost track of how many times Morlon Greenwood and Jacque Reeves got scorched in coverage.

Jeff Fisher? Pass on 4th and 3 instead of kick a 42 yard field goal for the lead? Seriously?

We committed a *bunch* of mind-numbingly dumb penalties. Drive-killing false starts, big-yardage PI's (obvious PI's too.)

Our offensive line collapsed like a house of cards. Credit to Schaub for playing a pretty heady game and to Slaton for being able to occasionally duck the defender that was in the backfield to meet him after he took the handoff. Our O-line can't hold against elite D-lines.

Great game, Texans. Really. And I couldn't be happier that the one game I attended in person this year happens to be the game we beat the Tits. Be proud of every win, be especially proud when you knock off a team that's 11-1 and be even prouder when they're your loud-mouthed division rivals.

Boo to the ridiculous post-game comments made by Finnegan, Fisher and crew ... you lost and you're handing out put-downs? Be serious and take responsibility for your pathetic play.

Great game, Texans ... but can you imagine how good this team would be if we could stop turning the ball over and finish our drives?
 
They got lucky AJ slipped on that 3rd and goal play or he probably catches another TD pass.

They got lucky White's fumble late in the game bounced right back to him.

They got lucky on that pass interference call at the end of the first half.

Luck cuts both ways.
 
I submit our defensive pressure up front contributed to Collins' poor play. The D line was in his face much of the day, something he's not accustomed to with that line and that run-oriented offense.
 
Mailman said:
They got lucky AJ slipped on that 3rd and goal play or he probably catches another TD pass.

They got lucky White's fumble late in the game bounced right back to him.

They got lucky on that pass interference call at the end of the first half.

Luck cuts both ways.
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They also got lucky Kris Brown missed a 26 yard FG.

I see Jereks point though. At halftime I found myself hoping that those bad passes and dropped balls didn't turn into big completions in the second half.
Collins had all day to make decisions early in the game.

But I wouldn't say we got lucky to win.
 
The Texans had atleast as many mistakes as the Tards. If you take away a mistake for a mistake the Texans still come out on top.
 
jerek said:
What does "outplayed" mean? Scored more points? Tried harder?
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Eyeball test Bro... I watched the same game you did and we outplayed the Titans, we moved the ball more consistently. I always thought the texans had the Upperhand. IOnce the Ticks couldn't run the ball, I felt they had to rely on some lucky plays to move the ball.
 
jerek said:
What does "outplayed" mean? Scored more points? Tried harder?
Click to expand...

Out played means having the most points at the end of the game.

I see your point of view about getting lucky, but all that matters is at the end of the day is there is a W next to our name.

The Colts got lucky twice, the Jags once, The Ravens got lucky we didn't play them week 2, the Vikes got lucky with a few breaks they got during the game.

I will take lucky over good any day of the week.
 
Y'all are missing my point.

Yes, the Titans made a lot of mistakes too (multiple roughing penalties, etc.) Yes they are lucky that our guys didn't capitalize some too.

I do disagree with the idea that we significantly pressured Collins. We had a couple of great plays and I don't have the benefit of a replay, but my impression while at the game was that Collins pretty regularly had a lot of time to throw to receivers who were pretty regularly torching their coverage.

My point is the differences between 11-1 and 6-7 are a lot more subtle than most people realize. They are, to name a few examples, dumb penalties, costly turnovers, inability to finish drives, and mistakes at the wrong time.

The Texans played well enough to win today, but it was a sloppy win. We're fortunate the Titans were sloppier.

As a coach, a player or a fan you'll take a win no matter how it comes to you ... and you'll be grateful for it.

As a coach, a player or a fan you want to be realistic about your play. Enjoy the victory and soak it up but recognize if we play the Titans like that 10 games this season, we're losing 8 of them.

We've beaten bad teams soundly this year, we've won some tough games against even or better competition and that is a major step forward for our franchise. But we're literally two turnovers away from 9-5 and wild card contention.

Our favorite NFL team is capable of more and I look forward to the day that the Texans deliver it.
 
jerek said:
Y'all are missing my point.

Yes, the Titans made a lot of mistakes too (multiple roughing penalties, etc.) Yes they are lucky that our guys didn't capitalize some too.

I do disagree with the idea that we significantly pressured Collins. We had a couple of great plays and I don't have the benefit of a replay, but my impression while at the game was that Collins pretty regularly had a lot of time to throw to receivers who were pretty regularly torching their coverage.

My point is the differences between 11-1 and 6-7 are a lot more subtle than most people realize. They are, to name a few examples, dumb penalties, costly turnovers, inability to finish drives, and mistakes at the wrong time.

The Texans played well enough to win today, but it was a sloppy win. We're fortunate the Titans were sloppier.

As a coach, a player or a fan you'll take a win no matter how it comes to you ... and you'll be grateful for it.

As a coach, a player or a fan you want to be realistic about your play. Enjoy the victory and soak it up but recognize if we play the Titans like that 10 games this season, we're losing 8 of them.

We've beaten bad teams soundly this year, we've won some tough games against even or better competition and that is a major step forward for our franchise. But we're literally two turnovers away from 9-5 and wild card contention.

Our favorite NFL team is capable of more and I look forward to the day that the Texans deliver it.
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Shorter version: The Texans weren't perfect so I have the right to complain.
 
Mailman said:
Shorter version: The Texans weren't perfect so I have the right to complain.
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Fine if you disagree and think there was nothing to improve on but no reason to be snide about it.

EDIT: never mind, you were the guy in the NSZ calling people "Bible chumps" the other day. I guess we won't be spending a lot more time debating much of anything on this board.
 
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About 10 of the 12 Titan wins were "ugly" mistake-ridden games, yet
nobody calls them "lucky." Quit hatin.' OD score another TD and
DUST THEM HATERS OFF!!!
 
jerek said:
Fine if you disagree and think there was nothing to improve on but no reason to be snide about it.
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Not trying to be snide, but what do you expect with this thread?

There is certainly a time and place to discuss what the Texans did poorly and what can be done accordingly, but you'll probably have a more receptive audience here after letting us soak up the win.

ETA: Speaking for myself only, the bitching and moaning is a contagion on this board, so when we have reason to be shiny happy rainbow people, we don't need the buzz harshers to come in and remind us that we're still not a playoff team.
 
jerek said:
The Texans regularly make those mistakes. The Titans don't.

7-7 vs. 12-2. If it's all about the W, you do the math.
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I do see your point. Tennessee played worse today than they usually do. Maybe we caught them on a ''down'' day. Maybe they wer looking ahead to Pittsburgh. But how do you determine if the mistakes were a product of them being sloppy or the Texans forcing them into mistakes?
 
Mailman said:
Not trying to be snide, but what do you expect with this thread?

There is certainly a time and place to discuss what the Texans did poorly and what can be done accordingly, but you'll probably have a more receptive audience here after letting us soak up the win.
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No problem, it's just that as much as I enjoy the W, I can't help but feel like we should be playing for a wild card right now.

If it puts my comments in a different light, I played four years of college basketball and have coached kids' teams off and on ever since and I treated each of those games in the same way too. Just the way I think.
 
Well, let me say this about that...

Teams don't win games by playing a perfect game. Teams win games by making the other team make mistakes and then take advantage of those mistakes. Games between teams with good defenses (like the Steelers/Ravens game) are frequently like this. Mistake after mistake after mistake and it seems like the team that makes the last mistake loses.

Now, because we've had a bad team that's lost a lot of games, we've watched other teams win apparently perfect games because we didn't force them to make mistakes and we didn't take advantage of whatever mistakes they did make.

But teams like the Titans and Steelers are in games like this (ie, mistake-ridden) all the time and what makes them winners is that they come out on top in games like this. That we were able to find a way to win a game like this against a top-flight opponent is a great and wonderful thing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... yeah... we got lucky but we made our own luck today.
 
beerlover said:
bottom line: Texans wanted it more :logo:
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The Pencil Neck said:
But teams like the Titans and Steelers are in games like this (ie, mistake-ridden) all the time and what makes them winners is that they come out on top in games like this. That we were able to find a way to win a game like this against a top-flight opponent is a great and wonderful thing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... yeah... we got lucky but we made our own luck today.
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Agree and wasn't trying to say otherwise. I am gonna sign off for the night. Catch y'all in the morning.
 
We won because we did what we had to do, not because they played badly.

Collins didn't play well because the Texans took away the running game, and that caused the DL to be in his face. Although they didn't get to him enough, they did preassure hime, and without shutting down the run game that would'nt have been possible.

Under the logic of this thread we would have scored 42 points, because the Texans didn't play up to thier potential on offense, but they won, case closed.
 
jerek said:
Kerry Collins sucked today. He had just about all day to throw, overthrew a number of his receivers (some of whom would've been end zone had they made the catch) and just didn't make the kind of plays he has made for most of the season.

Jeff Fisher? Pass on 4th and 3 instead of kick a 42 yard field goal for the lead? Seriously?
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The part in Bold is the only part I agree with you on, collins over thre players all day including an open receiver in the end zone.

The FG attempt would have been 50 yards by the way and into the find which was a factor with the roof open.
 
We didnt outplay them we fought a hard game agansit the team with the best record in the NFL and Hard divison game

and i know for a fact we left about 10 points on the field
 
Mailman said:
I submit our defensive pressure up front contributed to Collins' poor play. The D line was in his face much of the day, something he's not accustomed to with that line and that run-oriented offense.
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Agreed. He never got to step into throws, and they ran him on a boot to get him time... Collins running a boot... We win that 9 times out of 10.
 
I think this is as big a win as any the Texans have had. The offense is a proven power, and the defense is showing a consistency that may mean that the talent is at least "good enough" to win.

This was a very good effort that led to a great result.
 
jerek said:
What does "outplayed" mean? Scored more points? Tried harder?
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Texans dominated the game in between the twenties....our wco run and shoot just doesn't have what it takes in the red zone this season. Defensively we took away their running game and Collins was long and inaccurate all game long like he is prone to do. I don't see how we "got lucky' when we outplayed them.
 
Htownsportsfan said:
The part in Bold is the only part I agree with you on, collins over thre players all day including an open receiver in the end zone.

The FG attempt would have been 50 yards by the way and into the find which was a factor with the roof open.
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That wear and tear on his older body is begining to wear him down.
 
Vinny said:
Texans dominated the game in between the twenties....our wco run and shoot just doesn't have what it takes in the red zone this season. Defensively we took away their running game and Collins was long and inaccurate all game long like he is prone to do. I don't see how we "got lucky' when we outplayed them.
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I agree. I think Slaton's a beast, but we have to be able to pound the ball when the field shortens. I think that would be my only knock on Slaton.

Texan_Bill said:
Conversely, they were lucky that the game was as close as it was. :smiliedance:

(point.... counter point)
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Yep, we left alot of points on the field once again. Very happy with the W though.
 
Quality teams find ways of winning against an equal or better caliber of competition.

Our boys did just that.

We are 7-3 since starting off 0-4. If we run the table and win the final 2, we'll end the season with a 6 game winning streak, AND a very respectable 9-3 finish.

Pretty cheesy if you ask me! :fans:
 
I believe our redzone issue will be corrected next offseason. Alex Gibbs
drafted and coached our line and runningbacks, and he will do the same
next year. The Texans don't have near as many holes going into the
offseason as we did last year. That means more depth at running back
and O-line. We probably will draft a running back with speed and huge
legs (another ZBS back like Slaton.)

Slaton should add another 10-15lbs in another season or two, and
our stable will be one of the tops in the league. Not even Denver had
a passing attack like ours since Elway. We shore up our running game,
and with Schaub's playaction fake ability, we will be downright record-setting.
 
Vinny said:
Texans dominated the game in between the twenties....our wco run and shoot just doesn't have what it takes in the red zone this season. Defensively we took away their running game and Collins was long and inaccurate all game long like he is prone to do. I don't see how we "got lucky' when we outplayed them.
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We committed a bunch of stupid penalties. Not close, not aw, good effort, but extra strength dumb, fraudulently obvious pass interference, drive killing false starts, etc. We're lucky that Tennessee returned the favor with a bunch of their own.

As you yourself mention, we can't finish drives but we are among the best in the NFL "between the twenties." That's one million times better than the David Carr ball we suffered through for five years but one TD+two field goals isn't going to cut it routinely against elite teams. We can respond with "yay defense" but good quarterbacks will complete a lot of those passes that Collins flubbed.

Maybe I totally misstated myself when I posted this initially ... I emphasize that it was a great win against a good team and a division rival. The Texans are really putting a lot of things together and they're doing things as a team that we've never seen them do. And I know that good teams manufacture their own luck to some extent.

But if I'm the only Texans fan here who thinks that we got lucky at some really key times yesterday, so be it. That's all I was trying to say with this post.

There are already dozens of threads talking about OMG STEVE SLATON IS THE MAN!!!1 and how well our defense played when they weren't getting torched in coverage or committing stupid penalties and I'd tend to agree with most of the sentiments being posted there. Slaton is a beast. Andre was even more amazing than usual. Our defense did come up with a lot of really big stops and it's impressive that they contained the Titans run as well as they did.

I'm just saying that as a coach, a player or even a fan you'll take a win no matter how the game plays out ... but come Tuesday morning if you're "satisfied" with the kind of mistakes we made and an opposing coach going for it on 4th and 3 rather than booting a 50 yarder with one of the more accurate kickers in the league, then I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Like I said earlier, as a coach I'd be saying, great game guys and enjoy it. Take Monday off even. But come Tuesday, I'd be pointing some of these things out in film review. JMO.
 
There you go, Jerek. You can't have it both ways. Jack DelRio burned
us on 4th downs OVER AND OVER again in the first Jags game. The Texans
had the distinction of stopping NOBODY of 4th downs. Remember??

So, Fisher played the odds, and got beat because the Texans Defense
actually played with toughness. Texans MADE the plays, the Titans
DID NOT. Did you watch Steelers/Ravens? How many mistakes did
THOSE teams make? Did you watch Cowboys/Giants? How many mistakes
were in THAT game?

No team plays a perfect game. The step the Texans took, was that they
make the WINNING play, despite all the mistakes. Stop hatin' after a
great win.
 
DexmanC said:
There you go, Jerek. You can't have it both ways. Jack DelRio burned
us on 4th downs OVER AND OVER again in the first Jags game. The Texans
had the distinction of stopping NOBODY of 4th downs. Remember??

So, Fisher played the odds, and got beat because the Texans Defense
actually played with toughness. Texans MADE the plays, the Titans
DID NOT. Did you watch Steelers/Ravens? How many mistakes did
THOSE teams make? Did you watch Cowboys/Giants? How many mistakes
were in THAT game?

No team plays a perfect game. The step the Texans took, was that they
make the WINNING play, despite all the mistakes. Stop hatin' after a
great win.
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I'm not "hatin" and I've explained my perspective already. As an old coach used to say, if you're going to accept mistakes when you win, then you've got to accept those same mistakes when they cost you the game. We already have two dozen "great game guys" threads around here and while I echo those sentiments, I wanted to discuss what we can still improve upon. It seems like there are very few takers and if you want to flame me, then go for it. What will probably be my last thoughts in this thread:

The team that wins is generally the team that makes fewer mistakes. That's sport.

The Texans have *consistently* (not sometimes, not once in awhile, but typically) made mistakes at key junctures all season. To their credit they have won two in a row now (that were pretty mistake-riddled games) in spite of that. That says a lot about their toughness and it demonstrates that they are doing a lot of things right.

Otherwise your last paragraph is spot on. It was a big step and they should be proud. Again, I went to the game yesterday and haven't had that much fun watching the Texans in a long time.

And finally, I don't consider going for it on 4th and 3--especially when you have one of the best kickers in the league--as "playing the odds" ... considering the stops we had been piling up all game long. If you do, then fine, but unless there's something we don't know about (e.g. Bironas was hurt) I call it stupid coaching.
 
jerek said:
I'm not "hatin" but the team that wins is generally the team that makes fewer mistakes. That's sport.

The Texans have consistently made mistakes at key junctures all season. To their credit they have won two in a row now (that were pretty mistake-riddled games) in spite of that.

Otherwise your last paragraph is spot on. It was a big step and they should be proud. Again, I went to the game yesterday and haven't had that much fun watching the Texans in a long time.

As an aside, I don't consider going for it on 4th and 3--especially when you have one of the best kickers in the league--as "playing the odds" ... considering the stops we had been piling up all game long. If you do, then fine, but unless there's something we don't know about (e.g. Bironas was hurt) I call it stupid coaching.
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Who knows, maybe we're learning to win with mistakes. Imagine how easy it will be to win when we stop making so many of them! I get what you're saying and think that the word "lucky" is where you're running into resistance. The other team made mistakes too and of course if they had played flawless ball we would have lost BUT that's beside the point. Mistakes factor into games so it's hard for me to look at what my team just did and say they got lucky. It seems to discount their effort and I can't do that. They gave great effort today.

They owned Kerry Collins like they always have. We picked him like crazy when he was a Giant and a Raider. He's returned to form now as a Titan and we benefited from that but we also helped cause that by getting in his face on passing downs and not letting him throw in comfort.

The Titans started running all over us and for some odd reason just kind of abandoned that in the 2nd quarter. You could say we got lucky but then they came out and tried to do it again in the 2nd half and Deljuan Robinson was having none of that crap. The Texans stuffed their running game and "Lard and Tard" didn't take over the game. That wasn't luck, that was our defense.

Jeff Fisher decided to call a stupid play on 4th down. He says he thought his kicker couldn't make that kick into the wind from that distance. I take his word for it. That they again failed to execute the play they called wasn't entirely just our good fortune. The hurried throw that sailed out of reach of their stone handed receiver was at least partly a result of an afternoon of hurried throws and pressures from our pass rush. We helped make that happen.

Ultimately good luck plays some part in every game. Breaks go one way or the other and in recent weeks the Texans have started to not let the bad breaks destroy them while they've begun to catch a few good breaks along the way. It's normal for the game so I'm good with it.
 
I also think the decision to go for it on 4th down by the Titans was suspect at best but everyone who entirely throws out the notion that the wind played some part in that decision should listen to the chron video "Texans Report: Keys to the Upset." I will read or listen to pretty much anything about the Texans so having to listen to McClain does not upset me as much as it might some others but you don't even have to listen to what he says. Just listen to the background noise, that is some gusting wind. At first I thought there must have been a crowd still in the stadium celebrating. Here is a link to the Texans page, the video is near the middle.

http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/
 
Texan_Bill said:
Conversely, they were lucky that the game was as close as it was. :smiliedance:

(point.... counter point)
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I agree with this point.


We won because of cause and affect. We shut down the run and got in Collins face.

The biggest factor here was Collins experience. Younger QB's would have been sacked many, many times. Collins throws were bad because he didn't want to give up a sack, its more than likely that he didn't just have a bad day.
 
Hervoyel said:
I get what you're saying and think that the word "lucky" is where you're running into resistance.
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Great point. It's weird because jerek makes great points, and I see exactly where he is coming from. But what I saw was a hard fought, mistake filled game from both teams. Had the Titans won, I still wouldn't see it as lucky.
 
u know when we make dumb pently D line pentleys i sometimes think its the crowd noise u know sometimes when we get 2 loud its make our D line loose focus LOL maybe iam wrong becasue some of the players look for the noise

all i know its going to get much louder next season when the roof is fixed and closed :texflag::texflag:
 
jerek said:
one TD+two field goals isn't going to cut it routinely against elite teams. We can respond with "yay defense" but good quarterbacks will complete a lot of those passes that Collins flubbed.

Maybe I totally misstated myself when I posted this initially ... I emphasize that it was a great win against a good team and a division rival. The Texans are really putting a lot of things together and they're doing things as a team that we've never seen them do. And I know that good teams manufacture their own luck to some extent.

But if I'm the only Texans fan here who thinks that we got lucky at some really key times yesterday, so be it. That's all I was trying to say with this post.
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Did you happen to watch the Ravens/Steelers game yesterday or the Steelers/Cowboys? When facing elite/great defenses you have to be able to win ugly, and that is what Houston did. In this day and age the line between playoffs and going home is very small.

Sure we got lucky on a few plays as did the titans. Hell we got unlucky on a few plays as did the titans. The same thing happened in the first Jags game and both colts games. If the ball goes our way in those three games we are 10-4 and with this offense, the hype would be the Texans are team you would least wanted to face in the post season. But hey it did not happen that way, and that is why we are 7-7 and hoping to win out the rest of the year and we are left to think about woulda, coulda, shoulda and next year.

The Steelers have had some lucky plays and it has propelled them to a tie with the best record in the AFC and they are being a considered an elite team. That is what defines a team who wins and a team who loses. When the ball bounces your way you take advantage of it versus letting the other team capitalize on it.
 
Hervoyel said:
Mistakes factor into games so it's hard for me to look at what my team just did and say they got lucky. It seems to discount their effort and I can't do that. They gave great effort today.
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Just to clarify, I am not discounting the Texans' efforts. Not now, and pretty much not ever. If there is one thing our team has done most of this year regardless of W or L, it's play hard.

They did give a great effort, one of the best of the year and perhaps this franchise and they did it for sixty minutes. But effort alone doesn't win games. It has to be complemented by talent and smart play.

The Texans have always been an A for effort kind of club and that is a reflection of the "character guys" MO that our front office has been derided for in previous seasons. It's the lack of talent and smart play that have kept us mediocre or "coulda' beens" at best. It looks like we may be turning a real corner in both those regards ... I can only hope we finish up at 9-7 and ride a 6-game win streak into an offseason of "what might be" for next year.

Specnatz said:
Did you happen to watch the Ravens/Steelers game yesterday or the Steelers/Cowboys? When facing elite/great defenses you have to be able to win ugly, and that is what Houston did. In this day and age the line between playoffs and going home is very small.
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Totally agree with what you're saying and yes, you expect mistakes against elite teams. Again, the point of my post is (a) the Titans gift-wrapped a few key plays for us, and (b) playoff caliber teams don't consistently make those mistakes. The Texans have shot themselves in the foot at the worst possible times all year long but hey, at least now we are winning in spite of that.
 
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."
~ Coach Darrel Royal
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"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it."
~Thomas Jefferson
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Two great quotes about "luck". We had some lucky breaks, and so did the Titans. But we capitalized on them.

More importantly, though, is that it was clear which team wanted to win more. They might have more talent than us, and obviously a better record, but yesterday belonged to the Texans. Fanastic finish and hopefully a sign of positive things to come.
 
jerek said:
What does "outplayed" mean? Scored more points? Tried harder?
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Courtesy ESPN

stat.png


First Downs
3rd Down Eff
4th Down Eff
Total Yards
Passing Yards
Rushing Yards
Turnovers
Time Of Possession

and....

Total Points (not pictured)


Out. Played.
 
Señor Stan;1077360 said:
Courtesy ESPN

stat.png


First Downs
3rd Down Eff
4th Down Eff
Total Yards
Passing Yards
Rushing Yards
Turnovers
Time Of Possession

and....

Total Points (not pictured)


Out. Played.
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Congrats sir. You win the debate.
 
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