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Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

TEXANRED

Texan-American
So I was looking around to compare Mario to some of this years high round pick rookies and some notable DE's that are big names. This is what I came up with:

Jamal Anderson: Has not even played yet. He was picked 8th.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=0656

Gaines Adams drafted 4th overall: 1.5 sacks 17 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=8258

Dwight Freeney, 3.5 sacks, 20 Tackles, 4 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5897

Robert Mathis 4.0 sacks, 20 tackles, 1 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6474

Michael Strahan 4.0 sacks, 26 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=2579

Julius Peppers 1.5 sacks, 26 tackles, 4 PD 2 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=5888

Mario Williams 4.0 sacks, 23 tackles 1 PD, 1 TD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=7750

So I guess my question is, when comparing Mario to the rest of the stud DE's and high round draft picks, are we expecting to much?
 

TexansLucky13

53d Signal Batt
People plan their games around guys like Freeney and Strahan. Not so much around Mario yet. The reason those guys have fewer tackles is because the offense tries to make plays away from them.

I agree he is not a bust, but I just felt that needed to be added to this. He is well on his way to becoming a playmaker and game changer.

:texflag:
 

Errant Hothy

Hypermediocrity
So I was looking around to compare Mario to some of this years high round pick rookies and some notable DE's that are big names. This is what I came up with:

Jamal Anderson: Has not even played yet. He was picked 8th.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/player...?playerId=0656

Gaines Adams drafted 4th overall: 1.5 sacks 17 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...e?statsId=8258

Dwight Freeney, 3.5 sacks, 20 Tackles, 4 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...e?statsId=5897

Robert Mathis 4.0 sacks, 20 tackles, 1 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...e?statsId=6474

Michael Strahan 4.0 sacks, 26 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...s?statsId=2579

Julius Peppers 1.5 sacks, 26 tackles, 4 PD 2 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...s?statsId=5888

Mario Williams 4.0 sacks, 23 tackles 1 PD, 1 TD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...s?statsId=7750

So I guess my question is, when comparing Mario to the rest of the stud DE's and high round draft picks, are we expecting to much?
Yes, becuase to some fans he will forever be linked to YKW and Reggie Bush, and it does not mater that either those two are not living up to the hype.

Mario will never, and I mean never escape the 06 draft, espically from the sea of fairweather sports fans in Houston; and that's a shame.
 

Leahmic223

Veteran
Yes, becuase to some fans he will forever be linked to YKW and Reggie Bush, and it does not mater that either those two are not living up to the hype.

Mario will never, and I mean never escape the 06 draft, espically from the sea of fairweather sports fans in Houston; and that's a shame.
Agreed.
 

Ole Miss Texan

Hall of Fame
Nobody has really been lighting it up it seems.

However Jamaal Anderson has been playing...espn must have messed up their stats.

8 games(8 Games Started):16 tackes (12 solo/4 assist), 0 sacks, 2 pass def.


Mario has a ways to go to become a really good DE. His pass rush his suspect but teams have been consistently running away from him, he's a good run stopper and tackler.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Why does it have to be bust or hall of fame? Why can't I as a fan root for him yet be honest enough to say he has not done as expected? If he gets four more sacks and several QB hurries in next seven games, then he is a good DE. Not great, but good. In his next year, he then should move to a very good DE.
 

gtexan02

Working?
I dont think too many people have decided he's a bust.

He was hurt last year, and is playing very well this year. He's just not yet lived up to that 1st overall pick billing yet


Our DL as a unit, the 1st round crew, even though many are playing well individually, is a bust IMO
 

Dallas_Texan

Waterboy
So I was looking around to compare Mario to some of this years high round pick rookies and some notable DE's that are big names. This is what I came up with:

Jamal Anderson: Has not even played yet. He was picked 8th.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=0656

Gaines Adams drafted 4th overall: 1.5 sacks 17 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=8258

Dwight Freeney, 3.5 sacks, 20 Tackles, 4 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5897

Robert Mathis 4.0 sacks, 20 tackles, 1 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6474

Michael Strahan 4.0 sacks, 26 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=2579

Julius Peppers 1.5 sacks, 26 tackles, 4 PD 2 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=5888

Mario Williams 4.0 sacks, 23 tackles 1 PD, 1 TD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=7750

So I guess my question is, when comparing Mario to the rest of the stud DE's and high round draft picks, are we expecting to much?


Of course they are......and he's not a bust AT ALL. And yes, Defenses DO gameplan around him. They also gameplan(ned) around Dunta. You're crazy if you think they don't. Just b/c he doesn't have the stats doesn't mean he hasn't played extremely well. Those of you hyped up on Okoye should know that at least two of his sacks were people running scared from Mario. He's done well. Not great. Just like VY and Reggie. None have lived up to they hype, and that's b/c there is TOO MUCH HYPE. Every year people act like there are 4 LaDanian Tomlinson's in the draft, and 4 Joe Montana's. They're wrong every year. I'm very happy with Mario's play, and I even think TJ is stepping up. Once Okoye had another year under his belt, they will be feared in 2009!!!!!!!
 

HoustonFrog

Dallas Frog
The Freeney thing is a myth and an excuse. They just had a piece on the Colts defense a couple of weeks ago on ESPN and the whole point of their offseason was to stop concentrating on sack numbers and to become more of a force holding the line and becoming a more complete D. It has worked so far. Freeney gets much more attention than Mario and is always gameplanned for. Julius Peppers started out as a force and is having an off year and now he is like Mario too?I'm not getting the comparisons.

Of course they are......and he's not a bust AT ALL. And yes, Defenses DO gameplan around him. They also gameplan(ned) around Dunta. You're crazy if you think they don't. Just b/c he doesn't have the stats doesn't mean he hasn't played extremely well. Those of you hyped up on Okoye should know that at least two of his sacks were people running scared from Mario. He's done well. Not great. Just like VY and Reggie. None have lived up to they hype, and that's b/c there is TOO MUCH HYPE. Every year people act like there are 4 LaDanian Tomlinson's in the draft, and 4 Joe Montana's. They're wrong every year. I'm very happy with Mario's play, and I even think TJ is stepping up. Once Okoye had another year under his belt, they will be feared in 2009!!!!!!!
Can you pass what you are having over here?I don't think Mario is a bust per se. I just don't see what you are seeing and I don't see a guy who is living up to potential yet. We will see.
 

Double Barrel

Texans Talk Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I haven't seen Mario called a bust by many folks not Chronicle sportswriters or sports talk hosts.

Mario is going to be alright. We just have to be patient about it and don't set ourselves up for unrealistic expectations.
 
Anyone catch James Harrisons performance for the Steelers last night?

9 Tackles
3 1/2 sacks
6 Qb Hurries
1 Int
2 forced fumbles
1 fumble recovery

Just freakin Awesome!
 

Texan_Bill

Hall of Fame
Anyone catch James Harrisons performance for the Steelers last night?

9 Tackles
3 1/2 sacks
6 Qb Hurries
1 Int
2 forced fumbles
1 fumble recovery

Just freakin Awesome!
Too bad Baltimore isnt on our schedule this year... Steve McNair looked like the demon child of Drew Bledsoe and David Carr last night.
 

stingray

Hall of Fame
Let me first say that I am NOT saying that Mario Williams is a bust. He has been dissapointing so far for being a #1 overall pick. But he has plenty of time to improve. But on the players you mentioned, you are picking and choosing.

Michael Strahan- Secound round pick. He wasn't supposed to come in and dominate right away. He got better as his career came along. But he wasn't even a first round pick.

Julius Peppers- Yeah he has 1.5 sacks this year. But look at his first 5 years in the league.

2002-12 sacks
2003- 7 sacks
2004-11 sacks
2005-10 Sacks
2006- 13 sacks

Dwight Freeny

2002- 13 Sacks
2003- 16 sacks
2004- 11 sacks
2005- 13 sacks

My point is that we don't know if Mario is a bust yet, But to me he hasn't lived up to his potential. He can improve just like Michael strahan did. He is still young, but he has to have the drive and not just rely on talent alone.
 
Too bad Baltimore isnt on our schedule this year... Steve McNair looked like the demon child of Drew Bledsoe and David Carr last night.
Man I wish he would retire. I always respected his toughness but he has hung on too long, add to that he joined a Ravens team that has had nothing but offensive struggles since Jamal did his stint in the pokey.
 

kastofsna

Hall of Fame
it's been brutal watching Gaines Adams this year. completely outmatched on every play. although he's looked much better against Arizona. but man, it's been tough to watch.

ironically he's been great against the run, which everyone thought he could never do.
 

TexansSeminole

Hall of Fame
it's been brutal watching Gaines Adams this year. completely outmatched on every play. although he's looked much better against Arizona. but man, it's been tough to watch.

ironically he's been great against the run, which everyone thought he could never do.
I'm in Tally so I get Bucs games every week as well. I agree with you, and he has not looked anything like he did in college either. It's odd watching him play this year. I thought he was going to make some sort of immediate impact but he looks non existant for most of the games I have watched. I still have faith in him.

I think Mario has been a solid young player. He hasn't done anything to suggest he should be benched or anything of that nature but he hasn't shown me why he was selected #1 overall. However, if Vince or Reggie had come here I would be saying the same thing. It would be interesting to see how many people were happy with their #1 overall pick's performance for the first 3 years of their career. I was not happy with David Carr's, but I am not so sure it is representative of the #1s.
 

Texans_Chick

Utopian Dreamer
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.
That would be great info except we have gone up against some pretty regular offensive lines and average Qbs. Even with all you say, Mario should be better.
 

The1ApplePie

Hall of Fame
Texans_Chick made some good points

He has the tools to be a monster, but inconsistence is his biggest weakness right now.

They guy can go out and dominate an O-Line one week, then have Reggie "Bust" Williams make him his ***** another week.
 

Errant Hothy

Hypermediocrity
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.
I've said it beofer and I'll say it again...the only thing the Chron staff holds against Mario is that his name is Mario Williams and not Vince Young. Or in other words they are acting more like fans then some of the most fair-weather of fans.

None of those guys have ever moved past the 2006 Draft, and from the looks of it hey never will (in what is another example of the crap journalism that comes out of the Chron's sports department).

Sorry if I sound like a broken record today. :devilpig:
 

Texan_Bill

Hall of Fame
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.
Way to pick our spirits up TC... SO much to look forward to..... *shoots self*



J/K TC...
 

Second Honeymoon

Hall of Fame
Mario hasn't been a bust but he hasn't lived up to the pick we used on him or the money we pay him to play football. without a doubt.

My problem with Mario is that he lacks speed and quickness and was touted as someone who would be able to sack Peyton. Most of his sacks have been coverage sacks or sacks that have been funneled his way. He had that great one handed sack this year and he has been living off that one for some time now. He needs to improve his technique and learn to get off blocks. He spends too much time engaged and with his hands on the OL. He needs to learn to shirk those OL and get to the passer.

I saw him play with more discipline on Sunday though and more fire as well. I hope the guy progresses into a good player but I don't think anyone being critical of him is necessarily a bad fan or impatient. They are just expecting more for what we pay him and what we gave up/passed on to take him. I am not going to fault a fan for that. If we were 6-3, no one would even bring up Mario but because the team has been struggling with wins and sacks, Mario is an easy and legit target. Not so much the player, but the selection as #1 overall.

If Mario was a 3rd Round Pick, no one would be complaining nearly as much, but I doubt he would have earned the starting job.
 

Texans_Chick

Utopian Dreamer
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.
True. And that's what makes it frustrating for fans because most fans don't really know how to evaluate a lineman.

And because of the emotions surrounding last year's pick, it's hard to get straight talk about Williams, without junk being talked about.

The coaches say stuff positive about him based on their tape and what they've called, and a lot of people think that is all pravda.

You can do your own evaluations, but it is semi-limited from your TV watching based on angles. You can watch it live and have a sense of things, but that's only once.

I think the truth is between outstanding and bust. I think a lot of people forget he came out as a true junior and the limitations of playing on this defense. He came onto a defense where they need him to play awesome because there is so much suck on it and the schemes are suspect.

It is interesting to read that they tried him out a little at outside linebacker in a few situations and liked what they saw. I know that he did a bit of that in college.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
I thought folks would have figured that out over the great debate about HWSRN....
apparently not..

I also feel the whole argument that "he needs to perfect other moves.." is b/s too. I mean i watch other top DE's & they basically have 1 move or 1 thing that they're great at that leads to them getting most of their sacks.

Taylor - speed on the edge with the stiff arm
Freeney- speed spin with the occassional speed dip
Peppers - see Taylor
Strahan- see Taylor

etc.

I think it's cool that he tries them out to set guys up, but he looks best when he just bull rushes over the guy like he did in the giants game last year & like he did against KC this year.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
If you are going to use stats or any other system of measurement for a player such as Strahan, Peppers or anyone, then the same system of measurement should be used for our guys. DEs are evaluated by sacks, hurries and tying up o linemen. Mario has not done that well.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
If Mario was a 2nd Round Pick, no one would be complaining nearly as much.
That's very true, but it would also be nice if the fans recognized that Mario didn't select himself 1st overall. He has work to do, but he can only do what he can. As long as he continues working and continues improving, I have no problem with Mario, even though I might have a problem with the pick itself (which I don't, personally, except he wasn't D'Brick).
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
That's very true, but it would also be nice if the fans recognized that Mario didn't select himself 1st overall. He has work to do, but he can only do what he can. As long as he continues working and continues improving, I have no problem with Mario, even though I might have a problem with the pick itself (which I don't, personally, except he wasn't D'Brick).
My concern is if Mario is having a Travis Johnson 2006 season? I do not compare the talents of both coming out of college, but Johnson imo has looked better than Mario this season. That is not because he has another year on Williams, it is because he got his butt chewed.
 

Second Honeymoon

Hall of Fame
True. And that's what makes it frustrating for fans because most fans don't really know how to evaluate a lineman.

And because of the emotions surrounding last year's pick, it's hard to get straight talk about Williams, without junk being talked about.

The coaches say stuff positive about him based on their tape and what they've called, and a lot of people think that is all pravda.

You can do your own evaluations, but it is semi-limited from your TV watching based on angles. You can watch it live and have a sense of things, but that's only once.

I think the truth is between outstanding and bust. I think a lot of people forget he came out as a true junior and the limitations of playing on this defense. He came onto a defense where they need him to play awesome because there is so much suck on it and the schemes are suspect.

It is interesting to read that they tried him out a little at outside linebacker in a few situations and liked what they saw. I know that he did a bit of that in college.

Texans Chick has a good point that Mario hasn't played with a lot of talent around him. I think we all get that. I just think if your the #1 overall pick you should be making players around you better and not need to have better players around you in order to excel.

I agree with everything you said though, and its obvious that the coachspeak has been a little 'Pravda' because if he was truly 'exceptional' as Kubiak labeled him post-Chargers blowout, well then why the hell would they move him to OLB. They are just trying to get him in a position where he can truly be 'exceptional' and not just be mislabeled as such by the HC in order to deflect criticism and be a homer coach.

If he was so exceptional, he wouldnt be moved around...so Gary was full of it in essence. oh well, not the first time Gary has been full of it...Kubiak claiming Carr was good enough to be the Texans QB was the first load of crap...probably wont be the last.
 

Specnatz

Hall of Fame
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.

I said something similar to this in another thread and when I do speak of things Mario did in a particular game I am called blind, homer or told I have a man crush.

Like the saying goes, it is hard to sore like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys.

TC, just curious and sorta on the same subject line with coaching. the Ravens look like they are in for one long season and a new coaching regime could be taking over. Whom out there would you like to see take over as the Texans "D" coordinator, line coach and secondary coach?

So far I think it is unanimous that Richard Smith needs to go, as does Jon Hoke; but do you think Franklin and Bush needs to go as well?
 

Thorn

Dirty Old Man
As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.

I've said it beofer and I'll say it again...the only thing the Chron staff holds against Mario is that his name is Mario Williams and not Vince Young. Or in other words they are acting more like fans then some of the most fair-weather of fans.

None of those guys have ever moved past the 2006 Draft, and from the looks of it hey never will (in what is another example of the crap journalism that comes out of the Chron's sports department).
There are reasons why I don't pay any attention to Chronicle writers, and this is some of them. I swear, reading ill informed remarks about the Texans on ESPN and other national sites isn't near as bad as reading some of the **** I've read from the Chronicle writers.
 

infantrycak

Hall of Fame
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.
True. One thing you can't see, and this comment is not directed specifically to Mario but he is affected by it, is how NFL officials are not calling holding this year. It seems as if only blitzers and speed DE's are allowed to get to the QB and anyone else is fair game. I obviously watch more Texans football than other teams, but across the board this year power DE's and DT's are getting raped and the old conventional wisdom rules are out the window. I have seen at least 15 instances this year of an OLmen with his arm around the throat of a DLmen because his body is almost or entirely behind the DLmen and there is no flag. There was a play last weekend where a guy almost saddled TJ and rode him to the ground. Also, as always--discretionary calls hurt bad teams more than superstar teams.
 

TEXANRED

Texan-American
Mario is going to be alright. We just have to be patient about it and don't set ourselves up for unrealistic expectations.
That is the trap I myself have fallen into. Impatience, and unrealistic expectations. I am wanting that Sean Jones/William Fuller combo. I fooled myself into thinking that Mario by himself could make Babin good. I forget sometimes that he is still a kid playing a grown mans game.
 

HoustonFrog

Dallas Frog
Texans Chick has a good point that Mario hasn't played with a lot of talent around him. I think we all get that. I just think if your the #1 overall pick you should be making players around you better and not need to have better players around you in order to excel.
I agree with everything you said though, and its obvious that the coachspeak has been a little 'Pravda' because if he was truly 'exceptional' as Kubiak labeled him post-Chargers blowout, well then why the hell would they move him to OLB. They are just trying to get him in a position where he can truly be 'exceptional' and not just be mislabeled as such by the HC in order to deflect criticism and be a homer coach.

If he was so exceptional, he wouldnt be moved around...so Gary was full of it in essence. oh well, not the first time Gary has been full of it...Kubiak claiming Carr was good enough to be the Texans QB was the first load of crap...probably wont be the last.
And there has been my rub the whole time with him. I was never a VY or Bush guy..even though I respect both greatly and see the benefits...I was more trade down and get Mario at maybe 3. But no trades and he would have been gone from what we here. It isn't his fault he is picked there but over history that is the stigma with being the pick. The way the pick was explained to us was we had to keep up with the Colts and be a pressure D and he was the speed rusher we needed. So now we are being patient again and waiting for him to develop?That is what kills me. Its Year 6 and we are still talking patience with picks, etc.
 

TEXANRED

Texan-American
Dwight Freeny

2002- 13 Sacks
2003- 16 sacks
2004- 11 sacks
2005- 13 sacks
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.
 

TEXANRED

Texan-American
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.
Sure you can. I call it production. Not all stats are meaningless.

Think of these stats as his job evaluation. Is Mario doing his job? PD tells me that he is being disruptive in the passing game, getting into passing lanes and disrupting the play, Solo tackles tell me that he is staying home, playing his assignments and filling the gaps, Assist tell me that he is pursuing the play and hustling down field, Sacks mean he is doing his job as a pass rush DE.

QB stats I will agree with you that you cant judge a QB by just a stat line, and yes there are things that DE's do that don't show up, but the stat line is a good tale tell of what a Dlineman is doing.
 

Texan_Bill

Hall of Fame
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.
Thats actually pretty interesting.. Maybe Freeney should go to the NFC South.
 

TexansSeminole

Hall of Fame
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.
That may be true to an extent but Freeney is a damn good football player.
 

Texan_Bill

Hall of Fame
If you remove the sacks from the equation;
2006 Freeney had 26 solo tackles with 3 assists and 4 passes defended.
2006 Williams had 35 solo tackles with 12 assists and 3 passes defended.

2007 (through 8 weeks) Freeney has 17 solo tackles with 3 assists and 0 passes defended (note: 3.5 sacks)
2006 Williams had 18 solo tackles with 5 assists and 1 pass defended (note: 4 sacks)




Just sayin'.........
 

Vinny

shiny happy fan
If you remove the sacks from the equation;
2006 Freeney had 26 solo tackles with 3 assists and 4 passes defended.
2006 Williams had 35 solo tackles with 12 assists and 3 passes defended.

2007 (through 8 weeks) Freeney has 17 solo tackles with 3 assists and 0 passes defended (note: 3.5 sacks)
2006 Williams had 18 solo tackles with 5 assists and 1 pass defended (note: 4 sacks)




Just sayin'.........
How many teams would take Mario over Freeney? Probably zero since teams scheme around Freeney. Just sayin'
 

ATX

Hall of Fame
How many teams would take Mario over Freeney? Probably zero since teams scheme around Freeney. Just sayin'
Depends if they want to win now or down the road. Mario is 4-5 years younger than Freeney right?

Seems like Freeney's numbers are down since Carr left.
 

Vinny

shiny happy fan
Depends if they want to win now or down the road. Mario is 4-5 years younger than Freeney right?

Seems like Freeney's numbers are down since Carr left.
Most teams want to win now and don't really subscribe to the he sucks now, but he sure looks good in shorts so I'll keep paying him top dollar...'cept for a few teams of course (won't mention any names). Freeney's numbers are down because teams scheme around him more and more. That's what a difference maker does...if teams pay too much attention to him it allows others to make plays.
 

Texan_Bill

Hall of Fame
How many teams would take Mario over Freeney? Probably zero since teams scheme around Freeney. Just sayin'
Just making a point about the 'dreaded stats' routine. If someone had never seen the two play and read those stats, they would assume that Mario is just as good as, if not better. Those that watch and know a little something about football know differently..

One tangible is that one of those guys has the ability to take over a game and enforce his will on it, and the other can't... yet.
 

Fox

Rookie
This is obviously a very interesting topic and will continue to be for all Texans fans for the foreseeable future. We invested the first overall pick in the draft in a defensive lineman when two of the most prolific offensive players in college history were still on the board. None of the top 3 in that draft, IMO, have made the impact people expected them to make yet. Mario isn't hitting double digit sacks. Young has accounted for only 5 TD's, but 9 turnovers in seven starts so far this year, and if it weren't for the Titans stout D you'd hear much more clamoring about that. Bush is playing like a mediocre starting back, averaging less than 4 YPC, and only 5.5 yards per reception. These guys were hyped up to be immediate superstars, men among boys, and it's just not happening yet.

I like TC's point about playing for a green DC with a lackluster secondary behind him. I see Mario around the QB all the time, but he's always a few ticks too late. If our secondary forces the QB to hold onto the ball a little longer, many of those near misses are going to turn into sacks. Mario didn't do anything different, he didn't get there any faster, but his efforts would show up in the stat column more often.

The big crux of the discontent with Mario in Houston, IMO, has to do with this:
1. We've seen Bush juke out a whole team for what should've been a 10 yard loss and then run for 60 yards. Normal players do not make that kind of play.
2. We've seen Young break out of potential sacks and tear off a 49 yard run in the waning seconds of a game against the team that passed on him for the winning score. Normal players do not make that kind of play.
3. Mario has had good games, ie. against the Chiefs this year, the Giants and the Dolphins last year. We've seen him push guys backwards alot. We haven't seen him spin out of the arms of an OT and throw a blocking running back aside like a rag doll on his way to obliterating the QB in 1 second flat. We haven't seen him make a big, glitzy pass rush where he dominated the opposition and laid out the QB at that critical moment in the game. He hasn't done anything that makes you say, man that was a special play, a normal guy couldn't have done that.


Obviously defense isn't as highlight reel friendly as offense, but the average fan doesn't have the time or resources to break down game film. They want to see the big sparkly highlights. To me, I've appreciated Kubiak's candor in his interviews and if he says Mario's playing well then I trust him. I've seen Mario make some nice plays, if he's doing some great things that just aren't showing up on TV, and Kubiak thinks it's making a big difference in helping us win football games then I'm content with that.
 

Vinny

shiny happy fan
Just making a point about the 'dreaded stats' routine. If someone had never seen the two play and read those stats, they would assume that Mario is just as good as, if not better. Those that watch and know a little something about football know differently..

One tangible is that one of those guys has the ability to take over a game and enforce his will on it, and the other can't... yet.
yeah, I agree...just playing off those stats with my post. Frankly I think that Mario has too much physical ability to give up on. Hopefully he is just a slow learner.
 

texasguy346

Mod Squad
yeah, I agree...just playing off those stats with my post. Frankly I think that Mario has too much physical ability to give up on. Hopefully he is just a slow learner.
Maybe next year if the NFL allows a defensive player to have a helmet similar to the one that QBs wear we can give that helmet to Mario & have someone constantly slinging "Yo Mama" jokes at him throughout the game. Get him good & mad.
 

Specnatz

Hall of Fame
yeah, I agree...just playing off those stats with my post. Frankly I think that Mario has too much physical ability to give up on. Hopefully he is just a slow learner.
That and coaches can actually coach him, but they maybe asking to much.
 

Vinny

shiny happy fan
Maybe next year if the NFL allows a defensive player to have a helmet similar to the one that QBs wear we can give that helmet to Mario & have someone constantly slinging "Yo Mama" jokes at him throughout the game. Get him good & mad.
I'm figuring that when they insult him they can also scream that it's 3rd and inches...THEY MAY RUN THE BALL! DON'T SPRINT AROUND THE TACKLE THIS TIME!
 
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