Manfull: Reeves Wanted Young From the Get-Go

[jerek]

my biggest beef (besides Carr) is that I really don't see Mario becoming a "great" player that was worthy of the first pick in a loaded draft....I think he might be a good player, but there are certain things that I didn't see from him this year that makes me think that he won't be "great"

Probably because you were too busy watching Titans games. Plantar fascitis is a debilitating injury that prevented Mario from planting and making strong moves, the kind of thing that only Vince Young in all of his majesty could shrug off while engaging 300 lb. linemen. Hyperbole aside it's an injury that will heal and I admire Mario for playing through the pain. After a slow start in which he was clearly learning the ropes (and we knew he would go through growing pains ... he was a junior at NC State for crying out loud) he came on strong before suffering the injury. Through the course of the season, he wasn't "dominant" but he remained a factor and teams rarely ran at him. Then again who would run at an injured Mario Williams when you have Jason Babin on the opposite side?

 

[HoustonFrog]

Probably because you were too busy watching Titans games. Plantar fascitis is a debilitating injury that prevented Mario from planting and making strong moves, the kind of thing that only Vince Young in all of his majesty could shrug off while engaging 300 lb. linemen. Hyperbole aside it's an injury that will heal and I admire Mario for playing through the pain. After a slow start in which he was clearly learning the ropes (and we knew he would go through growing pains ... he was a junior at NC State for crying out loud) he came on strong before suffering the injury. Through the course of the season, he wasn't "dominant" but he remained a factor and teams rarely ran at him. Then again who would run at an injured Mario Williams when you have Jason Babin on the opposite side?

I know that he was hurt but I think the fact of the matter is that with the #1 pick you don't take a guy who is a "project" or someone who isn't going to make an immediate impact. There were questions on him coming out. You trade down for someone like him or you take the homerun hit of Bush, VY or whoever. They completely missed the boat. It is funny because I wrote this same thing earlier this morning and last year and I'm hearing Harbison on 610 say the same thing. He just wasn't a guy you make #1. That was an deal with being easy to sign and a "need." Heck if you kept Carr and wanted to take a need go with D'Brick #1.

 

[Texans_Chick]

I agree that there is all sorts of weak stuff said in this thread, all whichaways.

As someone who thought VY would succeed in the league in the right situation, but also believe that Williams is a key part of the Texans, I am more curious about how the decision making was made in the whole pick up Carr's contract/role of the consultant thing:

Texans FanHouse Link

In part:

The question I would like to know is what was the extent of Reeves' consultancy at the time of the draft? What does it mean that he "looked at Young?" How forceful was he in making his point that he liked Young and to whom did he make it? Did he recommend in January 2006 exercising all three years of Carr's option or a shorter term? Did he tell them at that time that he thought Carr's option should be picked up and that the Texans needed to draft Young as well?

Exercising three years of Carr's option (which is what was done) and thinking that you should also pick Young makes no sense to me at all. Salary cap wise it would be nuts to have double first pick money at the QB position, and it would have been difficult to envision Carr trying to learn a new system with hometown hero Young waiting in the wings.

I doubt we ever get the full story of Reeves' consultancy. Maybe this situation illustrates why consultants might work sometimes for the business world but are awkward for the NFL. They can make recommendations without having to deal with the consequences, and then repudiate the parts of it that could reflect badly on them.

 

[TexansSB07]

IF no one else has what it takes to say it, Dan Reeves is a No-Class Hasbeen. He could have sat quietly and let it go, but in trying to position himself to come back as a coach in NFL he decides to throw Texans under the bus. AND AFTER THE FACT...why wasn't Dan out in front of this saying as an evaluator of talent I look for a lot of good things when Vince Young comes to NFL.

LOOK I'm Dan Reeves

Colts will face Patriots and Saints will face off with Bears


SEE just like Dan Reeves I am out in FRONT of what is going on in NFL

 

[Mr. White]

With regards to Reeves' consultancy, wasn't the idea behind his hire to evaluate the entire organiztion?

I think I remember hearing that he was supposed to evaluate the entire roster as well as the FO, GM, and coaching.

 

[TEXANRED]

I moved to the Memphis area and attended Oiler games at the Liberty Bowl when the Oilers left town...I have no children and I worked in a field where I was mobile, so I bolted...I then moved to Nashville since they left Memphis early and attended games as I lived about 20 mins from the stadium in Goodlettsville. I'm also the admin of the official 49ers message board on their official web site. I'm a bigger NFL fan than I am a Texan fan.......what's it really matter? You don't understand me, and I don't understand homers. Go figure.

It does matter and it doesn't, I have my own personal feeling toward the Titans, Bud Adams, and that organization.

I am a homer and proud of, but I will tell you this, you are definitely a bigger homer than me. Even if I didn't have a family and worked in a field that was mobile I still would have told Bud to take his team and shove it. I would have to say leaving the city you live in to follow your team to there new city is the ultimate homerizm.

To each there own.

 

[jerek]

I know that he was hurt but I think the fact of the matter is that with the #1 pick you don't take a guy who is a "project" or someone who isn't going to make an immediate impact. There were questions on him coming out. You trade down for someone like him or you take the homerun hit of Bush, VY or whoever. They completely missed the boat. It is funny because I wrote this same thing earlier this morning and last year and I'm hearing Harbison on 610 say the same thing. He just wasn't a guy you make #1. That was an deal with being easy to sign and a "need." Heck if you kept Carr and wanted to take a need go with D'Brick #1.

Drafting for immediate impact is only a concern for impatient fans unwilling to entertain a bigger-picture building process. There was a time in which I argued David Carr will be successful here (still might be) but I think it's fair to say VY would have "done more" for our team this year than either David Carr or Mario Williams did (this year), viewing their respective performances through hindsight.

This fact does not diminish what Mario Williams will bring to our team, given experience and restored health. Neither does it diminish the premise that successful teams draft to win in the future rather than to pander to an emotional fan base in the here and now.

The history of sport is ripe with guys who took time to develop before becoming HOFers. I stand by the Mario Williams pick insofar as that you can win games with average quarterbacking (which Carr does provide) and a stellar defense. Mario (and DeMeco) are the cornerstone of a stellar defense.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Drafting for immediate impact is only a concern for impatient fans unwilling to entertain a bigger-picture building process. There was a time in which I argued David Carr will be successful here (still might be) but I think it's fair to say VY would have "done more" for our team this year than either David Carr or Mario Williams did (this year), viewing their respective performances through hindsight.

This fact does not diminish what Mario Williams will bring to our team, given experience and restored health. Neither does it diminish the premise that successful teams draft to win in the future rather than to pander to an emotional fan base in the here and now.

The history of sport is ripe with guys who took time to develop before becoming HOFers. I stand by the Mario Williams pick insofar as that you can win games with average quarterbacking (which Carr does provide) and a stellar defense. Mario (and DeMeco) are the cornerstone of a stellar defense.

Well I certainly respect your opinion but we are going to have two big differences that will lead us in our opinions. 1) I think Mario will get to a position of solid, really good, but not spectacular player for years to come. I hope I'm wrong after only 1 season but I just don't see it. To me he would have been a perfect 5-10 pick but not #1. He reminds me of what Greg Ellis did for the Cowboys. A guy you will have for years but not necessarily a stud. 2) You can win games with average QBs but why do it?Carr isn't even average in my book. Not even close. When you have a chance to get a guy..or many(Leinart, Cutler) that can win games for you and can make plays despite a poor team day, then you grab them. I understand your patient philosophy but why go there when you have the #1 pick overall and there is a first round loaded with playmakers?They took the guy easiest to sign and who fit a need and they are still looking to fill that need this year. People have taken to heart the Baltimore/Bears philosophy that you can have a bad QB and go far yet the examples out there are the exception, not the norm. Brady shows you exactly why a great QB or a very good QB can make everyone around him better.

 

[leachmtb]

You're right. Stats do tell the whole story. Don't you know that's how OROY and DROY got picked? They don't actually watch the games, they just look at the stat line and make a determination based on stats.

And I also agree that Reggie Bush added absolutely nothing to the Saints' offense. They were already Super Bowl contenders before they got him. He's such a non-factor that defenses don't even cover him.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think that stats do not tell the whole story at all, which is why I went further to give a little background to those statistics. And, it is not much of an argument to make a sarcastic comment about Reggie making them Super Bowl contenders. My point is that people weight in too heavily on him without looking at the best player or even the best rookie on their team. You have Drew Brees, who is an incredible quarterback and Colston who is a better wide reciever than Reggie Bush. For being the secon overall pick, his production was not good.

 

[travfrancis]

Haha, Vinny is just laying people out in this thread left and right, everytime he quotes someone and responds to them he just completely dismantles their often weak take. I can just picture TJ and Irvin in the studio yelling "He got jacked up!"

Ah, don't ever quit Vinny, love your work.

Also I find it humorous (and sad) that Mexican Texan claims to be a UT fan to try to gain credibility for his anti-VY takes.

 

[Mr. White]

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think that stats do not tell the whole story at all, which is why I went further to give a little background to those statistics. And, it is not much of an argument to make a sarcastic comment about Reggie making them Super Bowl contenders. My point is that people weight in too heavily on him without looking at the best player or even the best rookie on their team. You have Drew Brees, who is an incredible quarterback and Colston who is a better wide reciever than Reggie Bush. For being the secon overall pick, his production was not good.

My main point about stats is that they really say whatever you want them to say. For example....QB ratings, IMO, don't really account for how good a QB really is. Just an incomplete stat. Also, everyone looks at sacks to see how good a DE or LB is...IMO, sacks don't normally happen without DB's locking up receivers.

When you actually watch their games, you see the impact that each player makes. By the nature of his position, I just don't think that it's possible for Mario to impact a game in the same way that Bush or Young can. He just doesn't touch the ball...but I think that he'll be the cornerstone of a great defense.

My point about Reggie Bush is that I don't think that the Saints get to the NFC Championship game without him. He adds another dimension to the offense. They did make plenty of other improvements...not to mention the meatgrinder that the Superdome has turned into for opposing teams.

IIRC, I actually agreed a lot more with what you said in your original post than what I quoted. Just having a little fun...

 

[srstex]

Joppru with Seattle - is this Bennie
Gaffney with New England - And he's catching the ball after seperation
Billy Miller With New Orleans Still catching the ball
Didn't we cut all three of these guy ?

 

[srstex]

I just still don't understand the insistence people have on trying to prove VY isn't a good QB. He did what he did...won games...period. And did it his first year in the league with a team most considered to be the worst in the league when McNair left. There is a 99% chance he is only going to get better at doing that as time goes by. Because I think we can all agree that a QB isn't supposed to pick up the NFL that fast the first year....and especially a QB that wasn't even in a watered down NFL offense like Leinart. He was always in the shotgun, with his 3/4 arm slot, with his sometimes hasty decision to take off and run, with his bad Wonderlic score, with his poor defense recognition, with his problems going through progressions.....oh yeah with apparently everyone's dog's head and his hands because thats the way people act like when they are trying to convince others he STILL isn't a good QB. Open your eyes....no one knew he would contribute this quickly, true. But if you blasted him before the season you don't have to continue trying to justify your poor foresight. Just count it as a loss and hope no one becomes an ass and starts bringing up old posts and threads pointing out completely wrong things you predicted. Think of it as amnesty....we'll all just forget it happened and look the other way. We have Mario....and damnit he didn't disappoint me this year....he still wants to get technically better, he didn't quit, and he DID get better as the year went on. And regardless if he ever start picking up the sacks....he made a drastic impact already on our run D to his side. There is constantly a LB free because of the double team on him.

I enjoyed Vince Youngs win when his defense/special teams scored 21 points and his offense scored 3, but there you go, it happened and Vince did it all.
If Carr had won 8 games with VY numbers, the thread would read " And if Carr had better numbers just think where we would be ? "

 

[HoustonFrog]

I enjoyed Vince Youngs win when his defense/special teams scored 21 points and his offense scored 3, but there you go, it happened and Vince did it all.
If Carr had won 8 games with VY numbers, the thread would read " And if Carr had better numbers just think where we would be ? "

and if you read other posts in here, most aren't attributing that to him, but he did turn a 0-3 and then 0-5 team around and his defense and team said that his attitude permeated the team. It happens. Sorry, but people who have watched any sort of football over the decades have seen players change franchises. He is a rookie, Carr is a 5 year vet.

 

[dirty steve]

Probably because some people actually watched the games. VY made clutch 3rd downs, threw the intermediate pass well, produced in the clutch over and over, and was responsible for 2-3 TD's a game in many of their wins and took a 0-5 team that was 9-23 the two years before he arrived within a game of the playoffs. Vince Young's rookie stats were better than John Elways rookie stats....fwiw

i preferred Maurice Jones-Drew as the OROY pick but cant argue with VY. dude just made a difference after he took over. the AFC South is getting loaded on talent.

 

[jerek]

Well I certainly respect your opinion but we are going to have two big differences that will lead us in our opinions. 1) I think Mario will get to a position of solid, really good, but not spectacular player for years to come. I hope I'm wrong after only 1 season but I just don't see it. To me he would have been a perfect 5-10 pick but not #1. He reminds me of what Greg Ellis did for the Cowboys. A guy you will have for years but not necessarily a stud. 2) You can win games with average QBs but why do it?Carr isn't even average in my book. Not even close. When you have a chance to get a guy..or many(Leinart, Cutler) that can win games for you and can make plays despite a poor team day, then you grab them. I understand your patient philosophy but why go there when you have the #1 pick overall and there is a first round loaded with playmakers?They took the guy easiest to sign and who fit a need and they are still looking to fill that need this year. People have taken to heart the Baltimore/Bears philosophy that you can have a bad QB and go far yet the examples out there are the exception, not the norm. Brady shows you exactly why a great QB or a very good QB can make everyone around him better.

Hindsight affords luxury that forward planning does not. Many of the media analysts the VY crowd now delight in quoting had projected Young as a 1-2 year developmental project rather than an immediate starter, a belief shared by many NFL FO personnel as well. More to the point, and relevant in remembering our decision to pass on a first-day pick at quarterback, Kubiak believed that he could resurrect Carr's career. We did see progress this season, albeit not nearly to the extent that we (and probably Kubiak, and Carr) hoped for, and time will tell whether or not passing on VY was as big a mistake as many around here like to make it out to be.

Brady makes for a poor example in your case, as he was drafted late in the sixth round and does not possess any of the traits that the VY fanclub most often promote. He does not have a particularly strong arm and is not athletic and tossed 3 INTs in yesterday's W over the 14-2 Chargers and their MVP. Though a good and at times great quarterback, I would credit the Pats' superior gameplanning (on both sides of the ball) as the reason they can and do win so much and so well.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Hindsight affords luxury that forward planning does not. Many of the media analysts the VY crowd now delight in quoting had projected Young as a 1-2 year developmental project rather than an immediate starter, a belief shared by many NFL FO personnel as well. More to the point, and relevant in remembering our decision to pass on a first-day pick at quarterback, Kubiak believed that he could resurrect Carr's career. We did see progress this season, albeit not nearly to the extent that we (and probably Kubiak, and Carr) hoped for, and time will tell whether or not passing on VY was as big a mistake as many around here like to make it out to be.

Brady makes for a poor example in your case, as he was drafted late in the sixth round and does not possess any of the traits that the VY fanclub most often promote. He does not have a particularly strong arm and is not athletic and tossed 3 INTs in yesterday's W over the 14-2 Chargers and their MVP. Though a good and at times great quarterback, I would credit the Pats' superior gameplanning (on both sides of the ball) as the reason they can and do win so much and so well.

This is what I have never gotten. NFL people said he might take 2-3 years because alot of them are idiots. Sorry but I'd trust some of the people here to run a draft then NFL people who look at combine stats and project players. The players that have always made the best impact are the ones who were stars in college and who showed that they were winners when it counted. VY did it and others have. It isn't that hard when it comes to some of these guys. In fact most rookies these days aren't afforded 2-3 years. If a guy is a winner and people gravitate to that, then it translates. Carr didn't make improvements in my book. Improvements to me would be learning to throw a ball away or not eye raping your receivers. He has yet to learn that over 5 years.

As far as Brady..you have to be kidding?The guy is one of the most clutch QBs in NFL history. If we took your way of looking at things then Montana would only be part of a system..after all he was surrounded by good players and had the father of the West Coast offense, Bill Walsh, as his coach. Brady takes scrubs every year and makes them better. It amazes me how people overlook things like poise in the pocket, how to slide out of the pocket, how to respond to bad games. Despite 3 Ints yesterday Brady still led them to 11 pts in the 4th quarter and they are moving on. He gets it.

What bothers me about people and the Carr talk is that people gloss people like VY in his rookie year or Brady now and act like you just need to get talent around certain QBs or that it is the system. If that was the case then every College QB with an arm would be waiting for the right team and system and Ryan Leaf would have succeeded. Some guys have it, some don't. I've been watching since 1976 and this has never changed. Again, no disrespect. JMO.

 

[ASTRODOME2002]

I see many posters on this board raving about how well Vince Young played this season. He won a lot of games with his legs, but none with his arm. If you can't read defenses and be an accurate passer in the NFL, then your progression as a quarterback will come to a screaching hault. Vince Young won't continue to be successful in the league unless he learns how to throw the football accurately and read defenses. Michael Vick has similar skills as Vince Young. They both drop back, look for the first option and if that is covered they turn to their legs. A couple of years ago, Mike Vick was "superman" and was able to utilize his running ability to win games. That didn't work very long for Michael Vick and it won't work very long for Vince Young. This first year, a good one for Young, may do more to slow down his progress as a quaterback than most people think. Right now, Young believes that he has made it as an NFL QB. Teams will adjust to his running skills and eventually he'll have to pass the football. Once the NFL defenses catch up to him, Vince Young will have nothing to fall back on because he is a one dimensional quarterback/running-back.

 

[ASTRODOME2002]

Vince Young is the right-handed version of Michael Vick. They may as well be twins, because their talents and faults are very similar. Pro-bowl runner & practice team passer. Many forget that Michael Vick was on top of the world just 2 years ago when he led his team to an 11-4 record and a playoff win against the Rams (2004). Michael Vick could do no wrong (does this remind you of anybody?) Mike Vick this and Mike Vick that. A Pro-Bowl appearrance for the unstoppable Michael Vick. Roll forward to 2006-2007 and nobody wants Michael Vick within 100 feet of their starting quarterback position except the Falcons and, of course, Al Davis and the Raiders. If you are one dimensional (Mike Vick - Vince Young) the NFL will eat you alive. Gonna be a long next few years for VY.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Vince Young is the right-handed version of Michael Vick. They may as well be twins, because their talents and faults are very similar. Pro-bowl runner & practice team passer. Many forget that Michael Vick was on top of the world just 2 years ago when he led his team to an 11-4 record and a playoff win against the Rams (2004). Michael Vick could do no wrong (does this remind you of anybody?) Mike Vick this and Mike Vick that. A Pro-Bowl appearrance for the unstoppable Michael Vick. Roll forward to 2006-2007 and nobody wants Michael Vick within 100 feet of their starting quarterback position except the Falcons and, of course, Al Davis and the Raiders. If you are one dimensional (Mike Vick - Vince Young) the NFL will eat you alive. Gonna be a long next few years for VY.

Anyone who watches football knows better than this. If you even watched VY his last year in college and this year in any games..besides 2..you will know that his passing skills are light years ahead of where Vick's were when he came out. VY's game does not include "run first." He ran when he had to but in general, stayed in the pocket. He threw effectively against us here and made some deep throws that our QB has had trouble making. I'm sorry if it offends anyone but people need to actually watch a season of games and not a few highlight runs before making blanket statements that don't hold water. I've never seen so much random hate for a guy who has done nothing but prove people wrong. Oh yeah, and another big difference is that VY actually led a team to a championship while Vick has always been an athlete that has done well.

 

[Vinny]

Why? Don't take that the wrong way when I ask that. Why would you go out of your way to watch the Titans? Are you a fan of the Titans? Or is it strictly b/c of VY? I have never understood why people from Houston can, will, have, root for a division team. My best friend is an Eagle fan and likes Dallas. Yea, its kinda like that. He claims he is a fan of the game.

I can't understand it.

I moved to the Memphis area and attended Oiler games at the Liberty Bowl when the Oilers left town...I have no children and I worked in a field where I was mobile, so I bolted...I then moved to Nashville since they left Memphis early and attended games as I lived about 20 mins from the stadium in Goodlettsville. I'm also the admin of the official 49ers message board on their official web site. I'm a bigger NFL fan than I am a Texan fan.......what's it really matter? You don't understand me, and I don't understand homers. Go figure.

It does matter and it doesn't, I have my own personal feeling toward the Titans, Bud Adams, and that organization.

I am a homer and proud of, but I will tell you this, you are definitely a bigger homer than me. Even if I didn't have a family and worked in a field that was mobile I still would have told Bud to take his team and shove it. I would have to say leaving the city you live in to follow your team to there new city is the ultimate homerizm.

To each there own.

I used to work for Bud...that doesn't make me a homer...it made me employed...and living well. I love the NFL and had the means and the right job...so I followed the team. I really don't care if you want to cry about Bud and throw your feces at him like a monkey (your hatred of Bud ruins your credibility (football opinion) when assessing talent). Keep chunking though....looks like you are having fun.

I don't alter my takes on players due to geography since I choose credibility over popularity...always have, always will...I don't think that extreme homerism is honest and it doesn't help one develop a solid reputation when it comes to being a long time NFL observer around here...being your kind of a homer is being someone who lies to himself and others about the reality on the field and doesn't really get into the truth...it's all spin. That's why I don't grasp or have much respect for extreme homerism.

 

[NATHANHALE]

Vince Young is the right-handed version of Michael Vick. They may as well be twins, because their talents and faults are very similar. Pro-bowl runner & practice team passer. Many forget that Michael Vick was on top of the world just 2 years ago when he led his team to an 11-4 record and a playoff win against the Rams (2004). Michael Vick could do no wrong (does this remind you of anybody?) Mike Vick this and Mike Vick that. A Pro-Bowl appearrance for the unstoppable Michael Vick. Roll forward to 2006-2007 and nobody wants Michael Vick within 100 feet of their starting quarterback position except the Falcons and, of course, Al Davis and the Raiders. If you are one dimensional (Mike Vick - Vince Young) the NFL will eat you alive. Gonna be a long next few years for VY.

I'm gonna post this one on my 'eat crow' board....thanks!!

 

[hollywood_texan]

Vince Young is the right-handed version of Michael Vick. They may as well be twins, because their talents and faults are very similar. Pro-bowl runner & practice team passer. Many forget that Michael Vick was on top of the world just 2 years ago when he led his team to an 11-4 record and a playoff win against the Rams (2004). Michael Vick could do no wrong (does this remind you of anybody?) Mike Vick this and Mike Vick that. A Pro-Bowl appearrance for the unstoppable Michael Vick. Roll forward to 2006-2007 and nobody wants Michael Vick within 100 feet of their starting quarterback position except the Falcons and, of course, Al Davis and the Raiders. If you are one dimensional (Mike Vick - Vince Young) the NFL will eat you alive. Gonna be a long next few years for VY.

First off VY is a lot a bigger and stronger, and Vick is probably a lot faster. The way the two run out of the pocket and create plays with their legs is so different. VY, theortically, should be able to run like that for many years because he doesn't launch himself like a missle, which is Vick's running style because he is so much smaller.

Second, the mechanics on how they throw are very different.

Third, just watch how they play and you can see how different their decision making process is.

The only two similarities is that they are black and run well outside the pocket.

I never heard any comparisons of Steve Young to John Elway to Fran Tarkentan, and so on like this, on their running ability

These two guys stand on their own and have very different talents, athletic ability, size, and so forth.

I am not saying VY will become an MJ in the NFL, but saying he won't because he is like Vick is just ridiculous.

 

[HoustonFrog]

This is what I have never gotten. NFL people said he might take 2-3 years because alot of them are idiots. Sorry but I'd trust some of the people here to run a draft then NFL people who look at combine stats and project players. The players that have always made the best impact are the ones who were stars in college and who showed that they were winners when it counted. VY did it and others have. It isn't that hard when it comes to some of these guys. In fact most rookies these days aren't afforded 2-3 years. If a guy is a winner and people gravitate to that, then it translates. Carr didn't make improvements in my book. Improvements to me would be learning to throw a ball away or not eye raping your receivers. He has yet to learn that over 5 years.

As far as Brady..you have to be kidding?The guy is one of the most clutch QBs in NFL history. If we took your way of looking at things then Montana would only be part of a system..after all he was surrounded by good players and had the father of the West Coast offense, Bill Walsh, as his coach. Brady takes scrubs every year and makes them better. It amazes me how people overlook things like poise in the pocket, how to slide out of the pocket, how to respond to bad games. Despite 3 Ints yesterday Brady still led them to 11 pts in the 4th quarter and they are moving on. He gets it.

What bothers me about people and the Carr talk is that people gloss people like VY in his rookie year or Brady now and act like you just need to get talent around certain QBs or that it is the system. If that was the case then every College QB with an arm would be waiting for the right team and system and Ryan Leaf would have succeeded. Some guys have it, some don't. I've been watching since 1976 and this has never changed. Again, no disrespect. JMO.

Geez and I get neg rep for a difference of opinion like this. I'm not getting that. C'est la vie

 

[Vinny]

Geez and I get neg rep for a difference of opinion like this. I'm not getting that. C'est la vie

you got hit with the "Carr good attitude enforcement squad".

 

[HoustonFrog]

you got hit with the "Carr good attitude enforcement squad".

Thanks for the warning Vinny. I guess thought out and trying to nicely hold another opinion didn't work this time.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Haha "Carr didn't make improvements in my book. Improvements to me would be learning to throw a ball away or not eye raping your receivers. He has yet to learn that over 5 years." Funny stuff man.

 

[Vinny]

Thanks for the warning Vinny. I guess thought out and trying to nicely hold another opinion didn't work this time.

Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Thanks for the warning Vinny. I guess thought out and trying to nicely hold another opinion didn't work this time.

You got Bill Bixby'd .

 

[HoustonFrog]

Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

I don't take it personally. I just figured those were used for bad flame jobs and rambling diatribes that got personal. I'll keep respecting the well written dissent. That's why we are here.

 

[dirty steve]

Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

i enjoy the opinion--i just would rather see people suggest what they feel could be possible solutions instead of the carr sucks this, carr sucks that,-type stuff. but since i am now one of those who feel #8 has seen his better days in Houston, i enjoy what people think of guys like garcia and plummer, or a draftee like brennan or kolb.

 

[TexansSeminole]

i enjoy the opinion--i just would rather see people suggest what they feel could be possible solutions instead of the carr sucks this, carr sucks that,-type stuff. but since i am now one of those who feel #8 has seen his better days in Houston, i enjoy what people think of guys like garcia and plummer, or a draftee like brennan or kolb.

That kind of talk (talk of garcia, plummer, and draftees) is all over this board. Sometimes when your team's organization does not see something so obvious you just feel like saying something like "CARR FREAKIN BLOWS". Alot of people do that here on this board.

 

[HoustonFrog]

i enjoy the opinion--i just would rather see people suggest what they feel could be possible solutions instead of the carr sucks this, carr sucks that,-type stuff. but since i am now one of those who feel #8 has seen his better days in Houston, i enjoy what people think of guys like garcia and plummer, or a draftee like brennan or kolb.

Maybe it is because I'm not paying attention but I actually see alot more well thought out reasons regarding why he should be gone than the other way. Either way, if it is well thought out, I'll read. I do like the alternative ones also.

 

[hollywood_texan]

Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

Vinny, thanks for the general background on how you see this playing out, it is very good to know.

Much appreciated!!!!

 

[ASTRODOME2002]

Originally Posted by Houston Frog

"If you even watched VY his last year in college and this year in any games..besides 2..you will know that his passing skills are light years ahead of where Vick's were when he came out."

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You know, that's not really saying much. Comparing Vince Youngs' passing skills to Michael Vicks' passing skills is like comparing a rotten apple to another rotten apple. They are both bad.


_____________________________________________________________________________________
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

"VY's game does not include "run first." He ran when he had to but in general, stayed in the pocket.

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This has a lot to do with the offensive lines of both teams. The Titans had a better offensive line, so Young was able to stand in the pocket longer than Vick. Put Young behind the offensive line of the Texans and watch him revert back to his college days of run first, run second, run third and pass if you can't run fourth.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

"He threw effectively against us here and made some deep throws that our QB has had trouble making."

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...and this proves what, that the Texans had a horrible defense last season? Now that's a surprise. Everybody threw the ball effectively against the Texans. But, to become the worst rated passer in the league (Vince Young) you have to be a really horrible passer. Just think, Young was worse as a passer than David Carr, Joey Harrington and Rex Grossman. Now that's saying something. Especially since the majority of Texans fans are ready to drive Carr straight to the airport.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

"Oh yeah, and another big difference is that VY actually led a team to a championship while Vick has always been an athlete that has done well"

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LOL, Vince Young had a lot of help in leading Texas to the Rose Bowl and National Championship. How about comparing the football programs that they care from. There have been a lot more national championships at Texas than there have been at Virginia Tech. Has Virginia Tech even sniffed a National Championship?
Look, I'm not saying that Vince Young isn't a serviceable quarterback and that he'll be a bust. He's no Steve McNair though. Youngs' running ability far exceeds his throwing ability. It always has. That may be a good quality to have for a running back, but not for a quarterback. One day, Vince is going to have to throw the football and become a good passer (the same thing was said about Michael Vick). Vince hasn't shown the ability to be able to read defenses and throw the ball accurately on a consistant basis. These qualities don't just happen over-night. VY was on top of the world because his team helped him win games this season. He wasn't out there running around while the other guys sat on the sideline. His teammates had something to do with the Titans going on that winning streak. But, as I said in a previous post, teams will eventually figure out how to stop VY from running and he'll have to prove that he can throw in the NFL. I don't think he'll be able to adjust. Only time will tell.

 

[HoustonFrog]

You know, that's not really saying much. Comparing Vince Youngs' passing skills to Michael Vicks' passing skills is like comparing a rotten apple to another rotten apple. They are both bad. This has a lot to do with the offensive lines of both teams. The Titans had a better offensive line, so Young was able to stand in the pocket longer than Vick. Put Young behind the offensive line of the Texans and watch him revert back to his college days of run first, run second, run third and pass if you can't run fourth....and this proves what, that the Texans had a horrible defense last season? Now that's a surprise. Everybody threw the ball effectively against the Texans. But, to become the worst rated passer in the league (Vince Young) you have to be a really horrible passer. Just think, Young was worse as a passer than David Carr, Joey Harrington and Rex Grossman. Now that's saying something. Especially since the majority of Texans fans are ready to drive Carr straight to the airport. LOL, Vince Young had a lot of help in leading Texas to the Rose Bowl and National Championship. How about comparing the football programs that they care from. There have been a lot more national championships at Texas than there have been at Virginia Tech. Has Virginia Tech even sniffed a National Championship?

Look, I'm not saying that Vince Young isn't a serviceable quarterback and that he'll be a bust. He's no Steve McNair though. Youngs' running ability far exceeds his throwing ability. It always has. That may be a good quality to have for a running back, but not for a quarterback. One day, Vince is going to have to throw the football and become a good passer (the same thing was said about Michael Vick). Vince hasn't shown the ability to be able to read defenses and throw the ball accurately on a consistant basis. These qualities don't just happen over-night. VY was on top of the world because his team helped him win games this season. He wasn't out there running around while the other guys sat on the sideline. His teammates had something to do with the Titans going on that winning streak. But, as I said in a previous post, teams will eventually figure out how to stop VY from running and he'll have to prove that he can throw in the NFL. I don't think he'll be able to adjust. Only time will tell.

I don't even know where to start. First of all I'm going to start by saying that hate for VY or random comparisons to other running QBs just makes no sense. Vick and VY have totally different games, came from different systems and in my book, it is foolish to just make a blanket statement about them. You never even answered if you saw more than 2 games and some highlights. First of all, Youngs completion percentage his last year in college was one of the highest out there and after working with Jerry Rhome in the off-season showed he can throw down the middle of the field and have touch on the deep ball. The guy is a rookie and unless you saw the games you have zero credibility saying they are both run only guys. Somehow though you try and cover yourself and say that even if VY was in the pocket more it was due to his O-line. No, it is due to the fact that with Chow as O-coordinator the Titans ran a pro-style offense while the Falcons, who had the top rushing offense in the league(bad line?) ran more of a west coast version. Vick took more sacks because they call more plays that are planned runs for him. Saying that the Titans had a better line just doesn't hold true. You then go off on tangents about the Texans D, etc. He did it against the Colts D and other teams to. Also, where do you get your general analysis of QBs based purely on passer rating and as a "passer." Harrington, Grossman and Carr are all sub-par to normal QBs who have been in the league multiple years. You are comparing a rookie and making general statements. And to answer your last part. Yes, VaTech has sniffed them. With Vick at the helm they had 2 11-1 seasons and played in a National Championship game. Your kidding yourself if you don't think VY wasn't the main reason they won his last year.

I'm not even sure how to respond to your last paragraph because it is filled with so many generalities and suppositions I don't even know where to go. I mean already comparing him to McNair, his mentor..taking his rookie stats and saying he can't throw..not acknowledging that he led them to a winning record after taking over and the fact that their rushing average went up but about 20 yards after he took over.....As I have said before. I'm not saying the guy will be great or HOF. But people who just want to hate and make general statements comparing him to other running QBs are just missing the boat and doing it for arguments sake. Here is something real quick. Stats

This was near the end of the year. VYs stats

169/320 (52.8%), 1,972 yards, 6.2 Yds/Att, 12 TD, 11 INT, 69.9 QB Rating

Here are stats on QBs since 1980 who played in at least 8 games as a Rookie and attempted at least 100 passes. The stats for that group are as follows:

151/283 (53.4%), 1,803 yards, 6.4 Yds/Att, 9.4 TD, 10.9 INT, 68.2 QB Rating

 

[Coach C.]

I have been looking at QBs and doing a personal study of my own. I am going to let Morknolle post it since he enjoys the rep and what not, but I think it will be interesting to you all's debate. Just a tidbit, but it shows that Carr was not as bad as most think and that VY was better than Carr in critical game situations. He was not a better passer, but not to go to much into it, it should be interesting. Not sure when it will be finished and up, because the Senior Bowl is bout to start, but we want to get this indepth look done as to help people intelligently discuss the QB position.

 

[Vinny]

I'm sure there were plenty of Einsteins knocking John Elway his rookie year too (Young had better stats his rookie year than Elway did). VY had a better rookie year than Carr had in his 4th season...the homerism will never end will it?

 

[Porky]

I'm sure there were plenty of Einsteins knocking John Elway his rookie year too (Young had better stats his rookie year than Elway did). VY had a better rookie year than Carr had in his 4th season...the homerism will never end will it?

The short answer? No.

I am not going to add my opinion, but just wanted to say that Vinny and Houston Frog made a lot of excellent points, and I liked the way they debated the issue without getting personal. Kudos to both of you.

 

[TEXANRED]

Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

Hey Vinny, is there anyway to make it when someone leaves neg or pos rep it automatically leaves your name?

Maybe it would cut down on some of the silly neg reps that are given, and trust me when I say that I have received silly neg reps.

 

[Fiddy]

I love that the quickest way to be out of the coaching race was to say "I don't want David Carr." This just proves it, they hired Reeves and didnt listen to him because he went against Carr.

 

[Vinny]

Hey Vinny, is there anyway to make it when someone leaves neg or pos rep it automatically leaves your name?

Maybe it would cut down on some of the silly neg reps that are given, and trust me when I say that I have received silly neg reps.

that actually makes it worse....we lost our PM's due to threats on the old ignite boards. Some occasional blind peer pressure works if it is mature....immature folks tend to ruin everything regardless if the rep comments are named or not. I may take away neg reps one day though. I did that at the 49er board because it was abused too much. If it comes to it I will...but this board is a bit more mature across the board than that one.

btw: I just searched your history and only see 3 neg reps out of 22 total reps since December 05....and none of them are ugly at all.

 

[threetoedpete]

I feel like every UT fan here wanted VY to be a , but that's about it. which is understandable.(in general) He wasn't rated as the top quarterback in the class..Leinart then young...but cutler could have been rated higher. drafting Young at 3 above the other qb's was a stretch much less #1 overall.

The other half probably wanted reggie...me included. coming up to the few days before the draft was the first time I actually read about mario and his possibility here and wasn't upset..I thought it could be a good way for the franchise to go...young still no where near in the picture..esp w/ carr here for another 2 years and a 8mill bonus.

After the season...I am glad we didn't get reggie. Not because I think he's going to be a monumental bust, or anything, but because I don't think he would have added as much value to our team than other players. period.

I would rather have mario than reggie. plain and simple. Now that the season is over...for most of us anyways. go colts!..we beat them. I like what VY did. I'm not a UT fan...actually more of an aggie. VY surprised me very much. I among with many others didnt think he would transition into the NFL quite the way he did...esp this quickly.

Looking back on the past..I might have drafted VY...if we didn't give carr a bonus...once we did that VY was out of the picture.

I also supported a trade down but again looking back on the fact I'm glad we didnt. we most likely would have missed on Mario...if we traded down and proabably wouldnt have gotten a good deal anyways.

A lot of people are hating on McNair. I think he's a standup guy and a fine owner...much better than benson and bud!! He got rid of Capers...the other coaching staff. hired all new guys. and people are still upset we have carr. I don't think it's totally mcnairs fault. for whoever said bob just wants a team of friends...capers was a good guy. very nice guy but he got rid of him. we needed a new coach so as Ricky Bobby said, "That just happened!" Things are changing around reliant...and things are changing for the better.

I have faith in the current staff that they are making things a lot better. There are a few people on here that will disagree till they die and that's fine but I know the vast majority of texans fans are pleased with the progress.

This last draft was phenominal. (say we traded down...mario was gone. say dbrick was gone. next BPA was AJ Hawk ..the best LB in the draft. we pick him.....not demeco. Man! that sucked...nothing against AJ he's really is good but I am biased!) Say we pick D'Brick...thanks Dayne for breaking the leg of the $50 million LT instead of the 3rd rder! lol only kidding.

We have so many possibilities next draft and FA..it's going to be amazing, awesome, and heartbreaking.

For all those die hard UT fans and VY fans that 'new' he would be the same winner and leader. I say half of yall were full of it. To the other half that really did know it ...awesome...he surprised me and hope he does awesome in the nfl..so long as we can contain him...that's fine.

Go mario, demeco...go texans! the foundation of the future of the texans and i'm excited!

I'm outta rep but here's an atta boy. Nice post. You also Texansred. Never under estimate VY man love. fifty two percent is 52 %. And that number is never going to go up. JMHO. Might be good enough to get them to the SB.

 

[The Dream]

I can't believe there are people who would still take Mario over Bush.....

 

[Tayton]

I've tried to read thru this post and be objective. Posters (even seasoned ones) spew off stats when they agree with their arguement and rebuff them as just numbers when they don't. The truth is this team had alot of holes and we were switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3. We had NO Defensive Ends. If I knew how to selectively quote I would tend to agree with alot of what Astrodome 2002 posted. I'm not a big Carr fan nor am I a Vince fan. I agree that Vince is a running QB, maybe he can transform over the next few years. Maybe the NFL figures him out, makes him throw, and he's a bust. I for one have much more confidence in this staff moving forward to do what is right and make the team better. I therefore have officially decided to quit reading "Draft 2006" posts.

 

[The Dream]

I've tried to read thru this post and be objective. Posters (even seasoned ones) spew off stats when they agree with their arguement and rebuff them as just numbers when they don't. The truth is this team had alot of holes and we were switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3. We had NO Defensive Ends. If I knew how to selectively quote I would tend to agree with alot of what Astrodome 2002 posted. I'm not a big Carr fan nor am I a Vince fan. I agree that Vince is a running QB, maybe he can transform over the next few years. Maybe the NFL figures him out, makes him throw, and he's a bust. I for one have much more confidence in this staff moving forward to do what is right and make the team better. I therefore have officially decided to quit reading "Draft 2006" posts.

VY = more than just a "running" QB...oh when will you people learn.....

 

[mexican_texan]

I can't believe there are people who would still take Mario over Bush.....

Don't want to get into this again, but I stand by the decision to take Mario. You see teammates raving about Mario, wanting to see a healthy Mario for a full year. I'm the same.

 

[mexican_texan]

I love that the quickest way to be out of the coaching race was to say "I don't want David Carr." This just proves it, they hired Reeves and didnt listen to him because he went against Carr.

IIRC, Reeves and "many other coaches" said Carr wasn't to blame for his failures and could succeed as an NFL QB. I'm guessing Mike Shannahan, Denny Green, and Bud Adams were among those who said Carr could succeed.

 

[mexican_texan]

Ben played pretty well all through the season. One not so good game doesn't mean you can win, let a lone get to, the superbowl with bad QB play.

Weren't some Pitt fans calling for Charlie Batch throughout the year?

 

[Double Barrel]

IIRC, Reeves and "many other coaches" said Carr wasn't to blame for his failures and could succeed as an NFL QB. I'm guessing Mike Shannahan, Denny Green, and Bud Adams were among those who said Carr could succeed.

I'm pretty sure Bud told Bob McNair that Casserly was a great GM, too....