Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!
Could we ask to restructure David's contract?
- Thread starter El Tejano
- Start date
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
I think it'd be better for both sides to start fresh next year, the cap hit be damned. Having said that, if Carr is going to come back, I'd much rather he get paid a lot less than he is, or at least earn the money through incentives that he reached.
I doubt this would happen. I suspect Carr's pride would prevent him from accepting a pay cut. Even if he did accept it, you just know all the Carr apologists would blame the team for his poor performance in 2007--i.e., the team's lack of confidence in Carr caused David to lose confidence in himself and therefore play badly.
I doubt this would happen. I suspect Carr's pride would prevent him from accepting a pay cut. Even if he did accept it, you just know all the Carr apologists would blame the team for his poor performance in 2007--i.e., the team's lack of confidence in Carr caused David to lose confidence in himself and therefore play badly.
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
I don't know the specifics with Pennington, but I recall he was coming off a career-threatening injury and therefore had little to no trade value.
One thing Carr has proved is that he is very tough and durable. Partly because of that, he will have some trade value. I'd prefer the team get a 4th round pick for him rather than release him outright. Of course, the team could still give David that ultimatum and then trade him anyway if he refused it, but I suspect that would diminish his trade value if there was a public spat over this (i.e., the team would be trading him under distressed circumstances, so other teams would offer less).
One thing Carr has proved is that he is very tough and durable. Partly because of that, he will have some trade value. I'd prefer the team get a 4th round pick for him rather than release him outright. Of course, the team could still give David that ultimatum and then trade him anyway if he refused it, but I suspect that would diminish his trade value if there was a public spat over this (i.e., the team would be trading him under distressed circumstances, so other teams would offer less).
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
Oh, yeah.. look David. I realized you still have not gotten the help we keep telling that is comming; and drafted for the defence. But could you give up some of the hazzarded duty pay we give you. Look at it this way, we keep changing, and were sure that Vinney will come up with the big bucks for you. Along with a new offence planed for next year.
Help? The team added two former Pro Bowlers at receiver and center, signed a legit #3 receiver (Walter) and a pass catching tight end (Putzier). We also drafted two tackles in the third round and a tight end who turned out to be better than Putzier.
DC will never have 10 Pro Bowlers to help him on offense. Why can't he be successful with the talent he has, like Romo and Leinert, who have both been able to do more with less than DC has, and with less NFL experience to boot?
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
I'm not saying our line is great, I'm only saying that Dallas's isn't any better than ours, yet Tony Romo has already proven himself to be much better than Carr, without David's experience or pedigree. Time is up for David's excuse-making. It's past time for him to play like the #1 overall pick with 5 years of NFL experience earning $8 million/year.
Here is a post I submitted on TexansChick's blog that sums up my view in more detail. If you want, feel free to respond with logical reasons as to why I'm wrong, if that's what you think.
"If Vince Young or the fat QB class of 2006 wasn't enough to oust him, I am not sure that the free agent/draft class of 2007 gets him out either. I look at what might be available at the quarterback position in 2007 and just say meh. I also look at what other needs the Texans have and they are immense."
Stephanie:
What I think you are overlooking is that when the team made the decision to go with Carr last year, there was a lot of confidence that Kubiak would be able to help him improve with better coaching. The team also took steps to improve the line and the rest of the weapons on offense (i.e., Mike Flanagan, Moulds, Walter, Putzier, Spencer, Winston, and Daniels).
While the O-line has been banged up, Carr has done nothing to demonstrate that he should continue to be the team's starting QB. Whose fault was it that Carr was flagged for throwing forward passes beyond the line of scrimmage TWICE in one game? Whose fault is that Carr checks down even when he has plenty of time to throw? Whose fault is that Carr too often throws passes after the receiver has made his break and is squared up to Carr, which gives DB's the opportunity to make plays on the ball? What about his lousy decisionmaking against New England, when he threw 3 stupid interceptions and looked like he didn't even want to be on the field during much of the second half?
I could go on, but won't. When I look at Carr in comparison to Tony Romo, an undrafted free agent in his 3rd year who hadn't even played a regular season game before this year, it is clear that Romo is already a FAR better QB than Carr -- who was the 1st pick in the draft and has 5 years of starting experience in the NFL. Romo already shows better pocket presence and playmaking ability than Carr ever has.
Until very recently I was among those who thought Carr should be given more time to succeed with more help on offense. But his abysmal performances against Oakland and New England changed my mind. It is clear the coaches had absolutely no confidence in him in the Oakland game, and his boneheaded decisionmaking in the NE game led to what appeared to his being called out by Dunta Robinson. Which leads me to question whether he's lost the confidence of some of his teammates.
Let's face it: Carr was the 1st pick in the draft and is averaging about $8 million/year over his 3 year extension. For all that, he needs to be a quality playmaker, not someone who needs to have everything perfect to lead a time to victory. No other QB has 10 Pro Bowlers on offense to help him, and guys like Romo and Leinert are already far outplaying Carr with O-lines that are no better than Houston's or WORSE.
You say you're not excited about other veteran QB's. Have you seen Jeff Garcia play recently? He is 100X better than Carr and doesn't have receivers anywhere near as good as David does. He's also a 3-time Pro Bowler. Admittedly, he would be a short-term fix while we developed a younger QB, but he gives Houston a much better chance of winning now than Carr does.
Carr is a good guy and I hope he achieves some success in the NFL, but I think it's better for everyone if he is sent packing at the end of this year. I'm tired of all the excuses made for him and it is clear most other fans are as well.
NATHANHALE
Waterboy
...here's hoping you're still posting when Carr is out of the NFL and his only legacy is that 'the team done him wrong.' That's about it, right? 26 fewer sacks this year (less than 1 more per game than the play off teams so far),,,exactly what does the team have to do for Carr to be able to earn his pay?
'c mon, give us the goods---and, remember, there is a salary cap so it's not like we can write blank checks--but, since you know everything, how does Carr get headed in the right direction?
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Totally agree man. Playing softball hasn't worked over a 5 year span...i hope they try some toughlove and play a little hardball with him this offseason. If it could free up 1.5 or 2.5 million in cap space for next year, that could mean the difference in making some big FA signings. You appease the Carr, the NFLPA, and Carr's agent by installing some incentives that could approach or perhaps surpass his current salary.
I feel he owes it to the organization for all the patience they have had with him. If he doesn't agree to restructuring then you keep him around as clipboard holder and make him give handsigns as designated backup or cut him. If he does agree to restructuring then we bring him back and he competes against Sage for the starting job. It's his choice and that way it makes the Texans look a bit more even handed in their dealings with Carr.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
totally agree. the excuses hold no water anymore. it's kinda pathetic and sad but oh well...
NATHANHALE
Waterboy
Gee Nat.. good you pointed out that there are fewers sacks. Not tell that to the Carr haters that complain about the short dump-offs. It's because the pass protection is so much better. Boy, some how you, and your pals got everything blame on David even if you fall all over yourselfs. Now the improvement is due to Kubs game plan.. that is the direction were headed. Carr is the QB.. not the head coach.
...as always, you didn't answer the post...how do we fix what is wrong with David?...Hell-o, is any one home?...nope, didn't think so
Texanfan4ever
Rookie
Just a thought, who has first hand knowledge of the fact that the "team" has lost confidence in him? That is not what I hear them saying at all. They, the team, have the inside scoop and they know what is going on. Ours is just speculation. Most overrated in my opinion.
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
I didn't say the team HAS lost confidence in him, I was speculating on what sort of excuse Carr's apologists would make on his behalf IF the team asked him to take a pay cut, he accepted and didn't play well in 2007. Yes, I lot of speculation I realize, but that was consistent with the nature of the thread.
NATHANHALE
Waterboy
Nope.. I didn't think you could think also. Your claming something is wrong with Carr.. duh, not me. Life is fine for me and I like the small improvement that is being shown. I just hope this is the foundation of what's to come. OH, and by the way.. to answere you PM. Yes I bet the game, didn't take the pts. Took the money line @ +135. Also looking forward to cashing on the over 5.5 wins for the Texans.
...you keep making all these posts about all these promises the team made to Carr and why Carr has not performed but you can't answer your own posts...and Carr's getting better?...11 tds, Yeah, better if you expected nothing...foundation? I'll laugh that one off to sleep tonight...your spelling is still bad...mind is a terrible thing to waste, course there is a prerequisite
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
I just read in Jerome Solomon's blog that Carr has received $35 million of Bob McNair's money.
http://blogs.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2006/12/giving_david_carr_some_muchnee_1.html
Amazing. If the team were to cut Carr, I wonder how much another NFL team would be willing to pay him if he cleared waivers and became a free agent. Certainly nowhere near the $6+ million salary he is scheduled to receive in each of 2007 and 2008.
Right now, he's being paid so much more than his true market value it's not even funny.
http://blogs.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2006/12/giving_david_carr_some_muchnee_1.html
Amazing. If the team were to cut Carr, I wonder how much another NFL team would be willing to pay him if he cleared waivers and became a free agent. Certainly nowhere near the $6+ million salary he is scheduled to receive in each of 2007 and 2008.
Right now, he's being paid so much more than his true market value it's not even funny.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
That's probably true, but I feel that way about every professional athlete and most every boss I've ever had.
PS--I know what you mean though--cap era and market value. I get it.
I think wev'e already ruined David Carr here. It's time to let him go somewhere else and succeed, cause I still think he has what it takes. We have no offensive line, and we haven't had one since he has been here. If he could sit back and not get pressured like Peyton Manning does all day, he could be up good numbers, but unfortunately.. we still have 2 offensive line members that have been with the texans from the first draft, and a LT that sucks still .. and a aging vet. It's time to draft a running qb or build a offensive line around Carr.
Welcome to the club. Some of us have been noticing this for a while now. I remember saying things like "he's getting paid like a top 10 QB - he needs to start playing like one" during the '04 offseason before his base balooned in '05 (said that along with "we need a better o-line").
The basic breakdown of his earnings are:
Original signing bonus (April 2002): $10.92 million
Option bonus (March 2003): $3.08 million
Option bonus (March 2006): $8 million
Base salary: $1.04 million (2002); $550,000 (2003); $660,000 (2004); $5.5 million (2005); $5.25 million (2006).
If you do the math, that's exactly $35 million in actual earnings since he's been here - and that doesn't include incentives that we don't know about.
The Texans have thrown around a lot of stupid money over the years. They paid $31 million in signing bonuses to Gary Walker, Robaire Smith and Todd Wade a few years ago. How's that working out?
Don't get me started.
NATHANHALE
Waterboy
TEXANRED
Texan-American
Flannagan has been a disappointment all year, Moulds is on the down side of his career (although Moulds was still a great pick up, AJ has shown a vast improvement and I credit that to Moulds 100%) Spencer was hurt early in the season (thanks Dayne) Winston wasn't even activated till the second half of the season, OD has been hurt and inactive as of late, our starting RT blew an ACL, and Salaam has played hurt the majority of the year(thanks Dayne). Not to mention our star running back was put on IR in the beginning of the season.
Romo and Leinart have very good wide receiver tandems with TO/Glen, Fitzgerald/Bouldin. We still don't have a legit #2 to stretch the field. We still don't have a running game, we still don't have an Oline.
I will continue to state this in every post concerning the future. We need Defense. If we have a D that can go out there and stop the other offense quickly and allow our O to go out and manage the game the same way we did to Indy, then we are going to win a heck of a lot of games.
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
Yes, I'm sorry to say I'm very late to the club. I was a Carr supporter until very recently--it was the Oakland and New England games that pushed me over the edge. I really hope Carr is traded or cut at the end of the year, cap hit be damned.
I get a kick out of some posters arguing that because Carr counts so much against the cap, we need to keep him, because spending the money to bring in another QB would prevent the team from filling other needs. Apparently, those people (1) don't understand the concept of sunk costs and (2) the fact that QB is a need the team has to fill--and paying David $6+ million next year to be the one of the worst starting QB's in the NFL is not the best use of Mr. McNair's money.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
Heres the thing, sure we can cut Carr but how would that really help? This team is far from turning this thing around with one player. The dead money that you would so easily throw away could prevent this team from signing key FA's this off season.
Seriously look around at the up coming FA QB's. There is not a one of them that has better talent than Carr nor could they do a better job of managing this offense. So what would be the point? Throw away the money we pay Carr just to turn around and throw more money away to sign someone else who is either just as good or worse than Carr?
Even if you draft a QB, would you really want to put a newbie behind this Oline? Carr has two years left on his contract which is the same amount of time it is going to take for this team to get good and put talent on the field. At the end of that two years if there is talent on the oline and the missing piece is the QB then you don't resign him and draft your future. In the mean time it just seems silly to me to drop Carr just to drop Carr.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
How can you say that when the Saints did exactly what you are saying teams "can't" do. You have no clue what a consistent player will being to the QB position. There have been O-lines this season alone that became "better" with a different QB. Dallas and Tenn among them. I'm floored at the excuses this guy gets. cutting Carr only counts a percentage of the bonus we gave him against the cap..5-6 million next year. To get rid of that guy I'd gladly eat it.
edo783
Hall of Fame
Not sure how you arrived at that other than just a personal judgment. He is the 8th ranked in the AFC and 13th ranked in the entire NFL. Now you can make a personal judgment that he isn't very good, but to state that he is the worst starting QB the league would be pretty far from true based on how the league rates the QBs. If your talking w & l s, well, there are a couple of other folks that are involved in making those W & L s what they are along with Carr.
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
No, I would prefer to bring in a veteran to hold the fort down. Two more years of lousy play by Carr would be more than I could take. Our O-line is far from great, but Carr makes bad decisions even when he has plenty of time to throw. I don't buy the argument that Carr has no talent on offense to help him. He has one of the best WR tandems in the league. Dayne has been tearing it up the last few games, and the line has also improved of late. Leinert played much better than Carr behind a line that is unquestionably worse than Houston's. Romo plays 10X better behind a line that is Carr is about as bad as ours. David Carr is a weak link on the team.
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
You're citing figures based on QB rating points, which many do not believe accurately reflect a QB's value to a team. Carr has a high completion percentage, which is partially the result of all the dink and dunk passes he throws. Sometimes he checks down even when he has plenty of time to throw. I also didn't say he was THE worst starting QB in the league, I said he was ONE OF the worst, and I stand behind that statement. By no means is this the sole basis for my opinion, but FYI Scouts, Inc. ranks Carr 25th out of 32 QB's in the NFL.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2708631
My opinion is based more on personal observation of how Carr plays in comparison to other QB's. Leinert and Romo are two young, relatively inexperienced guys who have outplayed Carr behind lines that are undoubtedly worse (Arizona) or about the same (Dallas).
As far as W's and L's, yes I realize many others have a role in that. But so does Carr, and I'm through giving him free passes when he's a 5th year starting QB who's making about $8 million/year on his most recent extension. He's sure as heck not playing well enough to be worth that.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
I find it odd people keep talking Garcia as a possible replacement. This is a guy who was run out of San Fran, stunk in Cleveland, booted out of Detroit for McCown, and was forgotten about as the back up for McNabb.
Yes he is playing well in Philly but lets face it, Andy Reid is a friggin genius when it comes to his QB's. He made AJ Feely look so good the Dolphins surrendered a second rounder for him.
Jake Plummer? I thought you guys were done with David Carr?
AJ/Moulds is not a great Tandem.
How has Dayne been tearing it up? He has got what, one hundred yard game in 4 weeks?
The Cardinals have a solid left tackle, and the Cowboys line is much better than ours. Keep in mind Pitts and Weary are the only two linemen to survive the season.
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
I have to disagree with you in several respects:
1. Garcia was a 3-time Pro Bowler in SF. Yes, he was far from great in Cleveland or Detroit, but he's played extremely well this year, guiding the Eagles to the playoffs when they were pretty much given up for dead. Right now, there is absolutely NO comparison between Garcia and Carr as far as the quality of their play. (I agree with you that Plummer is not all that and a a bag of chips, but still think he's better than Carr.) In addition, remember that Kubiak is also regarded as a "friggin genius" when it comes to QB's, but his genius isn't working on Carr for some reason.
2. AJ and Moulds aren't a good WR tandem?!?!?! What does constitute a good tandem?
3. In the last 4 games, here is the yardage Dayne has gained and his number of carries, per game: 95 yards/18 attempts; 87/21; 94/18; 153/32. If you don't think those numbers are good, I don't know what to say. I'd like to see you apply the same standards you apply to our WR's and RB's to David Carr.
4. The Cardinals do NOT have a solid LT. They have an overweight, underachieving player that the team may let go in FA (despite its horrible offensive line and the premium placed on LT's) because he hasn't been worth the 2nd overall pick in the draft the team wasted on him. Regardless of how you feel about their LT, the rest of their linemen STINK.
5. The Cowboys line is NOT much better than ours. Flozell Adams, a former Pro Bowler is back this season from a serious knee injury and is not the player he once was. Rivera, another former Pro Bowler, has been a disappointment and is also not nearly the player he once was at age 34. Gurode, the center, barely won the starting job (mainly because his rival, Al Johnson, is underweight) and is nothing to write home about. The other guard and tackle are guys the team picked up in FA at bargain prices and are no better than their counterparts on the Texans. What has been striking to me as an avid Cowboys fan is that when Bledsoe was the QB of the Cowboys, his play very much resembled Carr's (e.g., stupid interceptions, too many sacks, few plays, etc.). Then when Romo was inserted into the lineup behind the same line, we all got to see how big of an impact a QB with good pocket presence and improvisional skill can have behind a mediocre line. If Romo were playing behind the Texans' line, he'd still be having the same kind of season he's having in Dallas, and remember, he was signed by the team as an undrafted free agent and is being paid only a fraction of what Carr.
No more excuses for Carr!
1. Garcia was a 3-time Pro Bowler in SF. Yes, he was far from great in Cleveland or Detroit, but he's played extremely well this year, guiding the Eagles to the playoffs when they were pretty much given up for dead. Right now, there is absolutely NO comparison between Garcia and Carr as far as the quality of their play. (I agree with you that Plummer is not all that and a a bag of chips, but still think he's better than Carr.) In addition, remember that Kubiak is also regarded as a "friggin genius" when it comes to QB's, but his genius isn't working on Carr for some reason.
2. AJ and Moulds aren't a good WR tandem?!?!?! What does constitute a good tandem?
3. In the last 4 games, here is the yardage Dayne has gained and his number of carries, per game: 95 yards/18 attempts; 87/21; 94/18; 153/32. If you don't think those numbers are good, I don't know what to say. I'd like to see you apply the same standards you apply to our WR's and RB's to David Carr.
4. The Cardinals do NOT have a solid LT. They have an overweight, underachieving player that the team may let go in FA (despite its horrible offensive line and the premium placed on LT's) because he hasn't been worth the 2nd overall pick in the draft the team wasted on him. Regardless of how you feel about their LT, the rest of their linemen STINK.
5. The Cowboys line is NOT much better than ours. Flozell Adams, a former Pro Bowler is back this season from a serious knee injury and is not the player he once was. Rivera, another former Pro Bowler, has been a disappointment and is also not nearly the player he once was at age 34. Gurode, the center, barely won the starting job (mainly because his rival, Al Johnson, is underweight) and is nothing to write home about. The other guard and tackle are guys the team picked up in FA at bargain prices and are no better than their counterparts on the Texans. What has been striking to me as an avid Cowboys fan is that when Bledsoe was the QB of the Cowboys, his play very much resembled Carr's (e.g., stupid interceptions, too many sacks, few plays, etc.). Then when Romo was inserted into the lineup behind the same line, we all got to see how big of an impact a QB with good pocket presence and improvisional skill can have behind a mediocre line. If Romo were playing behind the Texans' line, he'd still be having the same kind of season he's having in Dallas, and remember, he was signed by the team as an undrafted free agent and is being paid only a fraction of what Carr.
No more excuses for Carr!
TEXANRED
Texan-American
I personally think this is Garcia's last stand. IMO I do not believe he has much left, if any, in the tank and would be wasting money signing him. That is just my opinion though I have been known to be wrong once or twice.
To me the following are good tandems:
Chad Johnson: 83 rec / 1316 yards / 15.9 average / 7 td
TJ: 86 rec / 1037 yards / 12.1 average / 9 TD
Marvin Harrison: 90 rec / 1292 yards / 14.4 average / 11 TD
Reggie Wayne: 80 rec / 1240 yards / 15.5 average / 9 TD
TO: 79 rec / 1063 yards / 13.5 average / 12 TD
TG: 64 rec / 938 yards / 14.7 average / 6 TD
Bouldin: 79 rec / 1091 yards / 13.8 average / 4 TD
Fitz: 65 rec / 913 yards / 14.0 average / 5 TD
Not so good:
Brylan Edwards: 57 rec / 838 yards / 14.7 average / 6 TD
Joe J: 40 rec / 495 yards / 12.4 average / 3 TD
J Walker: 65 rec / 1095 yards / 16.3 average / 8 TD
Rod Smith: 47 rec / 453 yards / 9.6 average / 3 TD
How do ours stack up?
AJ: 101 rec / 1135 yards / 11.2 average / 5 TD
EMO: 55 rec / 546 yards / 9.9 average / 1 TD
Ron Dayne has ran for 612 yards / 4.1 average / 5 TD's. I would take that in a heartbeat if we had a healthy DD back. That would be a good one two punch. Dayne by hmself as a starter? No thank you. He has proven that he can not take the work load and stay healthy. Neither can DD, but combine the two and we should have one of the better running attacks.
As far as Oline goes chalk up my perception as the grass is always greener. I, as a Texan fan, am unable to fathom anyone having a worse line than ours.
edo783
Hall of Fame
So, what your saying is that it is nothing but your opinion, and that's fine, but that's all it is. Interesting that you say "Many don't think it is a good eval" when that is the standard used by the league, media etc., but then that doesn't support your agenda. If it were the other way, I suspect that they would all of a sudden become " The GOLD standard" for evaluation. Now, don't get the idea I think Carr has played well, but don't go off pushing stuff that is just your opinion as some sort of fact like gravity or something. If it is your opinion, so state it. Don't just say "He is the worst QB in the League", because that just isn't true based on how the league rates the QBs.
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
I did state it was my opinion. And again, I did NOT say he "is THE worst QB in the league"--I said he is ONE OF the worst starting QB's in the league, which I stand behind.