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"IT" - The difference between VY and Carr
- Thread starter The Dream
- Start date
- Status
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I also noticed that many of the people who were dogging Young the most don't post here anymore. I think some of them got new user names instead of eating crow. Props to the guys who hung in there even if they were wrong. Something to be said for that.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
A likely story there mister. You might find it with the fish that got away... LOL.
Really? Let's just let time tell who has "it" and who doesn't.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Why do we need time when we have visual and empirical data that supports that VY has IT and Carr does not.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
That would be very refreshing....
S
SESupergenius
Guest
I guess your motive is glaringly clear, Bash Carr even when he wins. **sigh***
No need for rain on the parade, we've got Vinny to bring up year old posts and his man-love for Vince Young. thanks Vinny, we needed that, no reason to even watch this next game for the Texans, we should just go ahead and watch Vince Young take it to the Patriots. www.houstontexans.com now is www.titansmanlovevinceyoung.com
Vinny
shiny happy fan
my motive was to ask if he felt the same way after a season of evidence that flew contrary to his point. If you don't want someone to challenge your opinions don't share them...otherwise it's all fair game.
dirty steve
Veteran
was this really necessary? i mean, the battle lines have clearly been drawn and everybody knows how everybody feels about this to not bring old stuff about how VY has "it." i was never in the VY camp, but i do realize that he is/will be a great player, but i won't eat crow just because i thought we had and still do have bigger needs than just a QB.
another flame war just got opened up.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
only if you are the one flaming
dirty steve
Veteran
i'm not flaming anything, just wondering why this is necessary. unless the guy is weak in the mind, he wont admit he is wrong, or was somewhat misguided. i just dont see the point, other than to rub it in his face.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
because this is a message board and not a chat room. There is a reason for the search function you know.....if you are so thin skinned that you cannot revisit an opinion then don't participate.
Give an opinion about the topic in the thread but stop personally attacking the people who are participating...or bullying them just because you don't agree with them.
dirty steve
Veteran
who effing cares? do you need the justification for yourself?
dirty steve
Veteran
yeah--but the opinion is already out there in the RECENT threads that have been started on the "VY-Carr/why didnt the Texans take VY debate." why not go with that? everybody knows VY has game.
I didn't call it either way, although I always saw a lot of potential. But he's the real deal, no doubt about it. I'd enjoy watching him more if he wasn't a freakin' Titan!
Beating the Colts was the only thing that helped this Texans fan's off-season from being the total pits after that VY game.
dirty steve
Veteran
should have kept myself banned from VY threads.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
First, CYA Steve..
We all know that ALL NFL team's ultimate goal is Super Bowl wins (fair or unfair). With that said, Vince has not done that yet (obviously thats impossible at this point in his career considering the regular season isn't even complete).
To me, that would be the 'evidence' needed... "IT" should translate to championships i.e Montana, Young, Namath, Unitis, etc.... Let's see what happens before we start making room in the HOF for VY's bust...
S
SESupergenius
Guest
I'm not really flaming Vinny, he knows where I stand, I would like to just once come on this board an ENJOY a win. We've seen a lot of postings the last few weeks from a few Carr-haters that have just been overwhelming. almost every thread as of late, they post Carr into them somehow no matter what the topic is and it hasn't been too enjoyable to even post here.
We just saw a monumental win for this organization and it dwarfs in comparision to the activity on these boards when we played the Titans and Vince Young won the game in OT. A game in which Carr led his team to tie up the game and lost with a coin flip.
But I digress. Vince Young is not a Texan. We didn't pick him in the draft. He's a good player, but on a different team. If you like him and his team, them please by all means go over to thier website and sprinkle him with joy. We don't need to be reminded that we didn't pick Young....or Bush....or D'Brick etc.... every few posts.
Oh, and Vinny, Merry Christmas and have Happy New Year.
We just saw a monumental win for this organization and it dwarfs in comparision to the activity on these boards when we played the Titans and Vince Young won the game in OT. A game in which Carr led his team to tie up the game and lost with a coin flip.
But I digress. Vince Young is not a Texan. We didn't pick him in the draft. He's a good player, but on a different team. If you like him and his team, them please by all means go over to thier website and sprinkle him with joy. We don't need to be reminded that we didn't pick Young....or Bush....or D'Brick etc.... every few posts.
Oh, and Vinny, Merry Christmas and have Happy New Year.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
I was firmly within the Carr camp and thought Young would be garbage in the NFL.....oh wait, no I wasn't. I was right all along
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Good post and I understand....I just respect Infantrycak's wisdom and wanted to know if his pov was different now. I have a hard time with people personally attacking people for debate (my message to Steve, not you) ....debate is what makes a good message board. Not only is it healthy to be open minded, but people learn from other pov's when they are honest about what they are debating...but personally attacking people who don't agree with you only ruins a good message board.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
That's what most people were thinking until Elway got a running game and a defense to complete the effort of putting up a Super Bowl team. Teams rarely win a Super Bowl with just a good QB, they have to have a lot of talent around them.
dirty steve
Veteran
i kind of feel like SES, it's like we just had the second biggest win in the history of the franchise but it seems to keep getting upstaged by what VY does. i mean, he's from Houston and all, but he plays for the Titans now. guess i'll just have to deal with it for the next 12-15 years.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Elway was in 3 Super Bowls and won something like 8 playoff games before he got that "good running game".
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I know what you are saying, but that will be exactly the case, in about 10-20 years from now, when we are talking to our kids about QB's "back in the day.." There are some exceptions however.... I think some guys like Marino will have more staying power than others.
Unfortunately, we as a society tend to remember #1.....
Very rarely do we remember #2. (unless of course its the Titans coming up 1 yard short - which, fortunately I will always remember)...
R
real
Guest
Trent Dilfer won a super bowl....
He must be full of IT
He must be full of IT
Porky
Hall of Fame
I don't see what is wrong with revisiting decisions this team has made. You want another - how about trading a second rd pick and Aaron Glenn (in essence) for PBurnt. Ouch.
I gotta hand it to the Dream. That first post of his really sums it up well. And Vinny was right all along too. I thought Vince would be good, but not this good, this soon. And, frankly, it's not so much that he has good stats. The guy just knows how to win. All you have to know is 0-5 before Vince, and 8-2 after Vince - same team, same players. Funny, but all I hear around here is that the QB is only one of 22, and one player won't make much of a difference. I would like to see some of those posters defend that statement in light of the above stat.
I gotta hand it to the Dream. That first post of his really sums it up well. And Vinny was right all along too. I thought Vince would be good, but not this good, this soon. And, frankly, it's not so much that he has good stats. The guy just knows how to win. All you have to know is 0-5 before Vince, and 8-2 after Vince - same team, same players. Funny, but all I hear around here is that the QB is only one of 22, and one player won't make much of a difference. I would like to see some of those posters defend that statement in light of the above stat.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
Right and kept losing them. Not that I think he lost, I contend it's a team game, but a lot of people were branding him because he couldn't win the big one. That whole "monkey off his back" thing was credited to the running game, no matter how great Elway was. He will forever be tied to T.D. in winning those Superbowls.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
The ravens had a historic defense...you can go get some cheap QB to run your team if you have a great defense and a good running game. Why spend 8 mil a year on a guy like Dilfer? The first thing the Ravens did when they won the SB was to replace Dilfer...if he was such a magical player I don't think they let him go.
R
real
Guest
There is no such thing as momentum...
It is merely a figment of our imaginations....
There is no such thing as morale either....
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I've been an Oiler fan since 1971 and have seen exactly ZERO Super Bowls here in Houston. I'd have loved to have had Elway, won 12 playoff games and gone to 5 Super Bowls. You act like losing Super Bowls and being a playoff team each year means nothing.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
He must of some of "IT" because he was the first Tampa Bay QB to go to a Pro Bowl. So you can go ahead and say that he is a Pro-Bowler. It's not like he was a terrible QB, he had a very good stretch for a couple of years.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Okay mr. I have an answer for everything... How about Dan Fouts... A pretty darn good QB, but never won anything. How often does his name get mentioned on this board or anywhere?
Besides this is starting to get away from "the point".. The POINT is, there is no reason to start making a spot for VY in the HOF just yet... A half of a season doesn't necessarily prove anything - Its a GREAT start, yes but thats all it is - is a start. Ya just never know what could happen.... I am not suggesting that I want VY to be injured, but I don't think Joe Theeeeeesman was ready for his career to end when it did and how it did...
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Doug Williams was the first QB to get them to the playoffs. The Bucs had never been to the playoffs before Williams arrived. He led them to the playoffs three times in four years and played in the 1979 NFC Championship Game. Before Williams arrived the Bucs were much like our current Texans.
R
real
Guest
That comment was directed to those saying that he must win superbowls to officially have IT....
And the year Trent Dilfer and the RAVENS won the superbowl he had a borderline terrible year....
R
real
Guest
LOL.....
Thats the best you can do ? Hope the guy gets injured ?
I thought you'd say that this year was a fluke...his team carried him...he'll come down to earth next year....
But suggesting that he might not develop all his potential because of injury ?
if if was a fifth....
GP
Go Texans!
VY, in the locker room after the 2005 Rose Bowl game, said he wasn't happy with the win.
He said he wanted to win the national title.
He basically soured the mood of a celebratory locker room and made sure that the team knew that "this win" wasn't enough, at least for him.
I'm hoping that's the attitude Carr and the others have. I am hoping they are not enjoying the Colts win too much...I am hoping they are re-challenging themselves to now contend for the playoffs: And it starts RIGHT NOW.
I want to see us crush and humiliate the Browns, and I want to see our players catapult themselves into the offseason with a higher level of commitment to winning.
...at least that's what I am "hoping" for.
But after seeing an avatar of Carr laying on the ground with Kris Brown, I have my doubts.
I guess if they want to think that the zenith of their pro careers was beating Indy once-in-10 attempts then this might be the best that it ever gets.
I enjoyed the win. Now it's time to see if they float out a turdlet vs. the Browns or if they want to play like the big boys that they ought to be by now.
Starts with Carr (like it or not).
He said he wanted to win the national title.
He basically soured the mood of a celebratory locker room and made sure that the team knew that "this win" wasn't enough, at least for him.
I'm hoping that's the attitude Carr and the others have. I am hoping they are not enjoying the Colts win too much...I am hoping they are re-challenging themselves to now contend for the playoffs: And it starts RIGHT NOW.
I want to see us crush and humiliate the Browns, and I want to see our players catapult themselves into the offseason with a higher level of commitment to winning.
...at least that's what I am "hoping" for.
But after seeing an avatar of Carr laying on the ground with Kris Brown, I have my doubts.
I guess if they want to think that the zenith of their pro careers was beating Indy once-in-10 attempts then this might be the best that it ever gets.
I enjoyed the win. Now it's time to see if they float out a turdlet vs. the Browns or if they want to play like the big boys that they ought to be by now.
Starts with Carr (like it or not).
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I am just saying its too early to tell... Let's see what happens over a period of time as expectations rise for the Titans. No one expecting anything from them this season, so Vince can come in and the titans can play loose, as they have been... Next year expectations go way up... Defenses will have a body of work in which to prepare from. The "run-and-shoot" was un-stopable, right? Wrong! Defenses figured it out and they were able to shut it down.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Now you have me LOL.... I don't think he is a fluke AND I would never suggest ANYONE gets injured - EVER (please re-read my post)... Now, I don't mind a toe job now and again where a guy is looking through his ear hole, but I would never wish a serious injury on anyone...
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Very few players have "IT" to the level that makes such a huge impact in the NFL.
What does that mean? Probably 99.999% of the time, anyone can say a player doesn't have "IT" and they are right 99.999%. Which is a pretty good success rate from that perspective. But that rate is like David Carr's completion %, it really doesn't tell you the whole story and isn't a good measure of success.
Evaluating a player and saying he has "IT", and then being right about it, is the key and very hard to do. Further, that type of player puts a coach and his teammates in Pro Bowls, Hall of Fame, and whatever else.
The Texans screwed up big time because they didn't realize sometimes playing safe can be worse than taking a risk. From a general perspective, they were right about the Carr extension and not drafting Young. But, if they had really got down in the details and all the opportunities, they would have realized they were missing an excellent opportunity.
I was amazed at how excited everyone was that the Texans beat the Colts and how things are going to be different now because of one game. Then I thought, what would people be thinking if Vince was on the Texans, the Texans were on something like a 6 game winning streak with an outside chance of making the playoffs. This board would explode!
What does that mean? Probably 99.999% of the time, anyone can say a player doesn't have "IT" and they are right 99.999%. Which is a pretty good success rate from that perspective. But that rate is like David Carr's completion %, it really doesn't tell you the whole story and isn't a good measure of success.
Evaluating a player and saying he has "IT", and then being right about it, is the key and very hard to do. Further, that type of player puts a coach and his teammates in Pro Bowls, Hall of Fame, and whatever else.
The Texans screwed up big time because they didn't realize sometimes playing safe can be worse than taking a risk. From a general perspective, they were right about the Carr extension and not drafting Young. But, if they had really got down in the details and all the opportunities, they would have realized they were missing an excellent opportunity.
I was amazed at how excited everyone was that the Texans beat the Colts and how things are going to be different now because of one game. Then I thought, what would people be thinking if Vince was on the Texans, the Texans were on something like a 6 game winning streak with an outside chance of making the playoffs. This board would explode!
R
real
Guest
We have a guy going into his sophmore....errr.....6th season next year, and a team that hasn't accomplished what the VY led titans have this year....
How come guys just can't say "I was wrong" ???? Or atleast "I could be wrong" ???
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
LOL... I'll watch and hope local guy does well BUT rest assured, the Titan bandwagon is one you'll never - ever get me on...
Actually I can't say never.... Bud may pass some day..... hmmmmmmm!
I don't know, big V....Denver had the 6th ranked rushing offense in 1989 (2092 yards rushing)....and Elway's peformance for that Superbowl: 10 out of 26 completions for 108 yards with no touchdown passes and two interceptions. Denver also had a good defense that year, too. The 1987 Broncos were ranked 12th in total rushing yards (1970 yards total), and his stats for that Superbowl: 14 out of 38 completions for 257 yards and one touchdown, with three interceptions.
I think Elway has always been a great QB, but that "IT" thing got better for him with age and a dominant running game (not to mention fantastic defense!). But those stats clearly indicate that he had a running game for a couple of those seasons, and he just failed to live up to his potential in those individual championship games.
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