stingray
Hall of Fame
Yep, some guys think good qbs are given out like air fresheners at the car wash.
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- Thread starter Texansphan
- Start date
If I'm not mistaken ….
OB went 9-7 in 2014 with FitzMagic - No playoffs.
OB went 9-7 in 2015 with Hoyerable - Lost in the Wildcard round - At Home.
OB went 9-7 in 2016 with The Blundering Wizard of Ozweiler - divisional round.
OB went 4-12 in 2017 with 7 games of Watson , Yates and Savage. - Playoffs ?!
OB went 11-5 in 2018 with Watson - Lost in the wildcard round - At Home.
OB has gone 9-5 so far in 2019.
I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference in results before or after Watson.
Sure , 11-5 was nice …. getting beaten at home by the Dolts in the playoffs , not so much , same thing happened without Watson when the Chiefs put a beatdown on them at home in 2015.
Me Too.
Damn , I don't see why not …. Its not like he takes a bucha big hits either , he plays smart and protects himself.
Six of one , half a dozen of the other ?!
Maybe …. Couldn't hurt , that's for damn sure.
Would prefer they do this before handing him $35m per.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
28-30 before/without Watson
23-13 with Watson
That’s not a whole lot of difference??
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You guys are looking at it all wrong, the question isn't and has never been is Watson better than any QB we've had in at least the last 10 years if not franchise history. The question is if Watson is the guy to be this teams franchise QB and get paid like one. Likewise no one is asking "is Watson a good QB" and no saying you prefer someone else isn't saying Watson is a bad QB, what they are saying is can he also be a consistent QB. My fear is that he is an upgraded version of Winston, when he is good he is amazing and deserves to be handed a blank check but when he is bad you might as well send the back up out there because its won't be any worse and you never know which Winston will show up that game.
Where Tampa is screwed though is by the same question we have, can he turn the corner and be the QB we all hope he can be? They've been asking the same questions we are asking now for 2 years longer and go ask Hook'em they still don't have an answer. Don't forget in his rookie year Winston set franchise records and was the first Buc to be named to the Pro Bowl as a rookie. I think for many they can't look at Watson unbiasedly because they are afraid that he may not be the guy we all hope he is and we are back to square one. So they defend Watson with the same viciousness and bullheadness that they accuse OB defenders as having.
Everyone keeps saying they are tired of just regular season success and the only thing that matters is the playoffs. Ok then let me ask you what has Watson shown in the playoffs to make us think he's the guy? He's only had one appearance and if we had to judge it based on just that we should be looking for a new QB right now. Don't get me wrong he wasn't the only one to crap the bed, the whole team did, but just looking at Watson in a vacuum he was horrible. So what if he is the same way in the next playoff game?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
With Jackson its not that I think he will go the route of Cam Newton as much as when the off season rolls around and teams get some film on him then they will figure out how to better handle him just like they did this year with Mahomes and last year with Watson. Doesn't mean they will totally stop him but it won't be the complete domination we are currently seeing. Hell BB might already have the formula, he did with Mahomes in the AFCC, but I don't know if he has the team to pull it off and Harbaugh is a way better coach than Reid and OB so I think he'll be better prepared for it though that maybe the fan in me talking.
I agree and I would much rather they bring in a new OC for whatever pennies they get paid and even a new HC for 4-5 million before we hand Watson a blank check. Maybe this year will answer those questions and we'll see a deep run at least but we haven't seen anything so far that makes me want to keep OB or pay Watson. Sadly I know that none of that will happen.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
He’s played one freaking game. There’s a pretty huge list of great QBs who’ve had a bad playoff game or string of playoff games. It IS the playoffs where you’re always playing the best teams.
How about give the dude some time to get his feet wet before making a declaration on him?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Nice to see you ignored everything else I said. I pointed out that he has only played one game.
So let me ask you then, since he has only played one game why are so many ready to declare him a franchise QB and hand him a blank check? Shouldn't the waiting about making a declaration on him go both ways?
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Because he’s 23-13.
austins23
Hall of Fame
Hmmmm, let me think on that a bit
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Wait I though regular season didn't matter any more? So I guess they do matter if we are talking about Watson but when talking about anyone else they don't. Great, glad to see we have decided to go with a double standard.
Oh by the way, he is actually 23-14 which means he has a win/loss percentage of 62% and 38% with 37 games as a starter.
Teddy Bridgewater is 23-13 with 35 games as a starter so his win/loss is 64% and 36%
Dak Prescott is 40-25 with 65 games as a starter so his win/loss is also 62% and 38%
Jared Geoff is 34-22 with 56 games as a starter so his win/loss is 61% and 39%
NFL Quarterback Win/Loss Records | The Football Database
View the NFL QB Win/Loss Records for current NFL Quarterbacks
So by your metrics all of those guys are as good as Watson but I wouldn't call any of them franchise QBs, even though Geoff got paid like one and Prescott will. Yet we are ready to declare Watson is because he is 23-14? Hell if that's what it takes lets grab Bridgewater on the cheap because based on the numbers you are using he's just as good.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Great, then let’s get rid of the bum.Wait I though regular season didn't matter any more? So I guess they do matter if we are talking about Watson but when talking about anyone else they don't. Great, glad to see we have decided to go with a double standard.
Oh by the way, he is actually 23-14 which means he has a win/loss percentage of 62% and 38% with 37 games as a starter.
Teddy Bridgewater is 23-13 with 35 games as a starter so his win/loss is 64% and 36%
Dak Prescott is 40-25 with 65 games as a starter so his win/loss is also 62% and 38%
Jared Geoff is 34-22 with 56 games as a starter so his win/loss is 61% and 39%
NFL Quarterback Win/Loss Records | The Football Database
View the NFL QB Win/Loss Records for current NFL Quarterbackswww.footballdb.com
So by your metrics all of those guys are as good as Watson but I wouldn't call any of them franchise QBs, even though Geoff got paid like one and Prescott will. Yet we are ready to declare Watson is because he is 23-14? Hell if that's what it takes lets grab Bridgewater on the cheap because based on the numbers you are using he's just as good.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Wow what a well thought out and considered response. I am amazed how you were able to take all my points and evidence and break each one down in so refined a manner. Clearly you are the greater debater.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
How do you define a "franchise QB"? How many franchise QBs are currently in the league?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Thank you! You are exactly right, what does make a franchise QB? So many here ready to declare Watson as one but to me no QB on their rookie contract should be considered a franchise QB because they still haven't really been tied to the franchise.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
Running QBs seem to get hurt at some point. RGIII, Cam, Watson come to mind.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
A lot of people are using this term, but we all have different definitions. Would like to have a better understanding what this term means to people.
BTW, I thought you said you want to know if DW4 is a franchise QB before extending him? But then you say a QB on their rookie contract shouldn't be considered a franchise QB. Please clarify.
The going rate for starting QBs begins at $35 million. Goff ($32M) and Wentz ($30M) have already set the market. Ryan Tannehill is about get over $25M and there are six QBs making over $30M.
Unfortunately, when it comes to QBs a blank checkbook has already been opened and either the Texans or another team is going to give Watson one of those blank checks.
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I want to speak generally versus quoting anyone. Watson is largely (not 100 percent) considered better now than Goff and Prescott. One those guys has gotten paid and the other will, but somehow this message board thinks it is debateable that Watson should get paid. The debate is how much and when. Young QBs who have played well enough and have room to get better get paid before their potential is reached or not. It is the cost of doing business in the NFL.
In a 16 game season, the difference between taping together 9-7 and 11-5 is huge. 9-7 is playing in a poor division and winning or needing the math to fall in place to be a wildcard team. 11-5 nearly guarantees a playoff birth and often means at least one home game.
As for a franchise QB, the general rule is that an organization is paying for a QB to get to(much less win) the Superbowl two or three times during a 10 or more year run (Brady is the massive exception) and winning at least 10 games more years than not.
Watson seems to be doing the regular season portion with all of the over-discussed flaws. The Superbowl thing is yet to be seen. Complicating matters long-term is the end of Brady's run and the young two QBs largely thought to be better Mahomes and Lamar Jackson playing in the AFC.
In a 16 game season, the difference between taping together 9-7 and 11-5 is huge. 9-7 is playing in a poor division and winning or needing the math to fall in place to be a wildcard team. 11-5 nearly guarantees a playoff birth and often means at least one home game.
As for a franchise QB, the general rule is that an organization is paying for a QB to get to(much less win) the Superbowl two or three times during a 10 or more year run (Brady is the massive exception) and winning at least 10 games more years than not.
Watson seems to be doing the regular season portion with all of the over-discussed flaws. The Superbowl thing is yet to be seen. Complicating matters long-term is the end of Brady's run and the young two QBs largely thought to be better Mahomes and Lamar Jackson playing in the AFC.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You are correct and let me clarify, as you said the term "franchise QB" is getting thrown around loosely and I'm just as guilty as others. I don't think a QB can be declared a franchise QB till they are better tied to the franchise and, hopefully, have led the team to some kind of championship. What I want to see from Watson is evidence that he can be that true franchise QB. I've seen parts of it, the ability to make plays, that "clutch gene" the greats have and most of all that he has taken leadership of team. All these things are great things.
What I don't like is how up and down he has been. Could be that's the system he's playing in? Very well could be and I'm open to changing OCs and even HCs before then and see if it is. I would very much like to do this before time to pay Watson comes around. However, Texans are the Texans and they aren't going to make those kind of changes, and I don't know maybe they shouldn't, and they are going to pay Watson even though they and we don't really know fully what we have. Hopefully this year we will see the Watson and the OB we have all been hoping for but I'm not holding my breath.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Sorry, I actually have a life and don’t have time to break down your novels point by point.
But to throw you a bone, I can give you a list of QBs with worse W/L records in whatever arbitrary period you want to use, and show they turned out to be great.
My point is Watson will have 2 years and change under his belt at seasons end. Is he a Hall of Famer already? Uh, no. He has plenty room to improve and grow, as any QB in year 3 has to.
And looking at the whole picture, the average to poor line he’s had to play with, the receivers that can’t stay on the field, and yes, the coaching, despite all of that, Watson has been able to cover those deficiencies and win games. A trait that good QBs have.
Has he been inconsistent? Yes. HE’S IN HIS 2ND FULL YEAR!!! But if you’re going say he’s not the guy after that little amount of time, or can’t see the potential ceiling there is with him, then I can’t help you.
Again, sorry I don’t have the time to sit down and write a ******* book like some of you seem to be able to afford, but I hope this a more adequate response for you that helps answer some your questions and concerns.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Agree entirely and I'm not saying we shouldn't pay Watson, because if we don't someone will, I just wish we could be a little more secure in our investment.
Max
Veteran
DW is the fastest quarterback in NFL history (26 games) to reach 6,500 yards passing and 500 rushing, the fastest to throw for 50 touchdowns and run for five more and the fourth-fastest quarterback in NFL history to throw 50 touchdown passes. He tied Steve Young for the most games (three) with at least 375 passing yards and 40 rushing yards in NFL history. Was he just a big game winner in college? Well, he's 6-3 in nine primetime games played in the NFL. In those nine games, he's 156-of-228 (68%) for 2,010 yards with 21 touchdowns and three interceptions w/ a rating of 121.1 (and he rushed for 271 yards on 39 carries with three rushing touchdowns).
You don't even consider trading him. If you want to know if he can be as consistent as you'd like before you pay him, then you find a coach that has a system where receivers aren't consistently running into each other's space because of confusion and linemen aren't consistently missing stunts and blitz's because of confusion -- then see if he isn't more consistent. If you choose to not find that coach, then you still pay him and sit that coach down and require him to get an offensive coordinator that will simplify the system. If you're too afraid of confrontation to do that, then you sit in your lounge chair and smoke cigars, eat cheeseburgers and brush cookie crumbs off of your lapel as you get up to count your money during breaks in the game.
You don't even consider trading him. If you want to know if he can be as consistent as you'd like before you pay him, then you find a coach that has a system where receivers aren't consistently running into each other's space because of confusion and linemen aren't consistently missing stunts and blitz's because of confusion -- then see if he isn't more consistent. If you choose to not find that coach, then you still pay him and sit that coach down and require him to get an offensive coordinator that will simplify the system. If you're too afraid of confrontation to do that, then you sit in your lounge chair and smoke cigars, eat cheeseburgers and brush cookie crumbs off of your lapel as you get up to count your money during breaks in the game.
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Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
It's not like we're trying to extend Bortles or Trubisky here.
Man I even gave Trubisky a shot to begin the year too based on his playoff game last year and the coach. Whoops.
Maybe we need to define what is our definition of a franchise QB and our expectations when we think of Manning, Rodgers, Brady, Wilson and Brees.
Also, take into into consideration where they were the first three years of their careers versus the last ten years of their career.
Also, take into into consideration where they were the first three years of their careers versus the last ten years of their career.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Right. Seems people expect a player in his 3rd year to be at a HOF level. Doesn’t work that way.
Multiple times, I’ve posted that Peyton Manning threw 80 interceptions his first four seasons. Early in his career, Wilson was a game manager who relied on a strong running game and great defenses. After his 3rd season, the Chargers cut Drew Brees. Rodgers had the benefit of sitting and learning from Favre.
It seems that we forget Watson has only played in 35 NFL games but our expectations are he should be as consistent and savvy as the great QBs who have played 80 to 160 NFL games. We don’t compare him to other QBs at the same stage in their careers.
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Texansphan
Football connoisseur
Damn - I hope Watson plays better than Winston or we'll never hear the end of it.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Its just so funny to hear guys use the stats when its convenient. Use the lone playoff game when its convenient. hop back and forth between the regular season mattering or not. LMAO. Now I read that NO QB ON HIS ROOKIE DEAL SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A FRANCHISE QB???? LOL 
You will never change anybodys mind on the internet. That is one logical conclusion that everyone should probably make. It will always be a dick measuring contest as long as you have people who arent able or willing to admit when they were wrong. In ten years everyone here will act like they were Deshaun Watson fan #1.
I'll have the receipts.
You will never change anybodys mind on the internet. That is one logical conclusion that everyone should probably make. It will always be a dick measuring contest as long as you have people who arent able or willing to admit when they were wrong. In ten years everyone here will act like they were Deshaun Watson fan #1.
I'll have the receipts.
stingray
Hall of Fame
Its just so funny to hear guys use the stats when its convenient. Use the lone playoff game when its convenient. hop back and forth between the regular season mattering or not. LMAO. Now I read that NO QB ON HIS ROOKIE DEAL SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A FRANCHISE QB???? LOL
You will never change anybodys mind on the internet. That is one logical conclusion that everyone should probably make. It will always be a dick measuring contest as long as you have people who arent able or willing to admit when they were wrong. In ten years everyone here will act like they were Deshaun Watson fan #1.
I'll have the receipts.
Exactly, the internet receipts don’t lie just like they didn’t lie when Texian called out everyone for not wanting to take Bortles over Clowney. The names on here are here for future reference.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Exactly, one game and my boy is asking what has he done. Come on Maverick, that’s a question out of Steel’s book of creative ways of downing Watson.
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dream_team
Hall of Fame
Well we still have two more years before we have to worry about extending him.
The way I look at things is it's extremely difficult to find a QB as good as Watson. That may not make him a "franchise QB" according to your definition, but I want to give him every opportunity and resources for him to become just that. If he strikes out, then he strikes out. I'd prefer knowing we tried, rather than giving up early and he succeeding elsewhere.
Texansballer74
The Marine
I can name quote of few quarterbacks who were considered the franchise even before they’re rookie year. Big time example: Peyton Manning. That declaration became fact did it not? So why are you making up a big stink bomb about us calling Watson our franchise QB. Mahomes was labeled that way before he started. That’s the reason why he was drafted by Reid. They didn’t waste any time getting rid of a very solid QB in Alex Smith. Jackson is the Ravens franchise QB. Donald, Wentz and the list goes on and on Maverick.
Another comment regarding this Franchise QB definition.
Having a franchise QB does not automatically guarantee you will will win a championship. If that’s the case, Brees, Manning, Rivers and Rodgers and others would have more than 1 or 2 rings over a 10 to 15 year period.
I consider a franchise QB a player you can build your team around for the next 10 years. A guy who will play at an elite level, win more than he loses, consistently keep you in games, make plays when the lights are their brightest, make you feel most games are winnable, can carry the team in the 4th quarter, displays strong leadership skills, his availability to play 16 games and the playoffs, consistently elevates his teams, to command his huddle and consistently contributes to you winning a game versus losing it.
Most teams hover around 8-8 or 9-7. The franchise QB should be able to consistently make a difference to get you to 11,12 or more wins per season. Then when the opportunity present itself, with a little luck, getting hot at the right time and contributions from the ENTIRE team, win a championship.
Having a franchise QB does not automatically guarantee you will will win a championship. If that’s the case, Brees, Manning, Rivers and Rodgers and others would have more than 1 or 2 rings over a 10 to 15 year period.
I consider a franchise QB a player you can build your team around for the next 10 years. A guy who will play at an elite level, win more than he loses, consistently keep you in games, make plays when the lights are their brightest, make you feel most games are winnable, can carry the team in the 4th quarter, displays strong leadership skills, his availability to play 16 games and the playoffs, consistently elevates his teams, to command his huddle and consistently contributes to you winning a game versus losing it.
Most teams hover around 8-8 or 9-7. The franchise QB should be able to consistently make a difference to get you to 11,12 or more wins per season. Then when the opportunity present itself, with a little luck, getting hot at the right time and contributions from the ENTIRE team, win a championship.
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badboy
Hall of Fame
Much better post than quick sarcastic one liner. This is how discussion should be done. I agree with your points he has high ceiling and has played like a good QB just not a franchise QB. Can he become one? We all hope so but some of don't want pay him $35 m for potential when his cap is only 4.4 m. That's 30 we can use to overpay him if needed in 2022.
badboy
Hall of Fame
No reason extend with 2 more seasons either. We will know a lot more of what we have after season 4It's not like we're trying to extend Bortles or Trubisky here.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Like I said, I didn't have time then AND, if people are serious about trade talks regarding Watson after 2 years and change, well, you're going to get those kind of responses. Having discussion is one thing, addressing some of the insane BS being thrown on this board is another.
He's a QB that has taken a team that was below .500 in 58 games before he got here, and that he didn't play with an ACL injury, and has turned it into a team that has a 65% winning percentage in just his 3rd season. And he has a shit ton better numbers than Peyton Manning did in his 1st 36 games.
| first 36 starts | Manning | Watson |
| Record | 19-17 | 23-13 |
| Yards per game | 253.9 | 261.9 |
| Y/A | 7.3 | 8.2 |
| Completion% | 60% | 67.2% |
| Passer Rating | 83.4 | 102.9 |
| TD/INT | 62/47 | 70/27 |
Colts should have cut that Manning bum by some of the standards people hold around here. Y'all can play y'alls little game of semantics, franchise QB, QB of the future, whatever, and I'm in no way saying Watson is the next Manning, but he's sure off to a pretty damn good start.
If he keeps it up, keeps learning and growing, as Peyton did, as all the greats did, then he reaches those heights some of you seem to wish he was already at 36 games in.
I know it's a now, now, now world we live in anymore, but shit still takes time.
badboy
Hall of Fame
That's what I'm saying, wait another year at reasonable costs. If he improves year four, you can extend him year five. Why rush to claim him franchise? Looking back on a Manning or Brees and then saying he should have been seen as what he became.
Excellent overall post, but hope you don't mind that I snipped just this point. I was going to say the same thing. Being a franchise QB just means the potential talent is there to build a team around for a long period. None of the other QBs of O'Brien's tenure were even close to be considered a franchise-type talent.
Watson clearly is, and simply put, there is not a credible NFL analyst in existence that would support the assertion that Watson is not a franchise QB. I'll even go out on a limb and say I doubt there are any pro coaches that would not consider Watson a franchise QB under the above definition.
The Texans would be the laughing stock of the NFL if they even entertained the notion of trading Watson. But, I know they are smarter than your average bear, and they are going to pay the man what he's worth on the current market. Don't worry, though, it's not your money, even if some of you guys are "we men".
You dont have time to respond to his post but you have time to make a post this long. LMAO
I believe posters are comparing DW4 to Mahomes, a guy who's had less starts than DW4 is and a guy I consider a true franchise QB.
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What's an ample amount of time? 3 yrs, 5 yrs, 10 yrs?
Excellent overall post, but hope you don't mind that I snipped just this point. I was going to say the same thing. Being a franchise QB just means the potential talent is there to build a team around for a long period. None of the other QBs of O'Brien's tenure were even close to be considered a franchise-type talent.
Watson clearly is, and simply put, there is not a credible NFL analyst in existence that would support the assertion that Watson is not a franchise QB. I'll even go out on a limb and say I doubt there are any pro coaches that would not consider Watson a franchise QB under the above definition.
The Texans would be the laughing stock of the NFL if they even entertained the notion of trading Watson. But, I know they are smarter than your average bear, and they are going to pay the man what he's worth on the current market. Don't worry, though, it's not your money, even if some of you guys are "we men".
Great post and I disagree with you about the Texans winning a SB with DW4 at QB. Of course McNair is going to re-sign DW4. He's the best QB the franchise has ever had and the reason McNair will re-sign DW4 is because DW4's good for business regardless of whether he can bring a championship to Kirby or not.
Its just so funny to hear guys use the stats when its convenient. Use the lone playoff game when its convenient. hop back and forth between the regular season mattering or not. LMAO. Now I read that NO QB ON HIS ROOKIE DEAL SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A FRANCHISE QB???? LOL
You will never change anybodys mind on the internet. That is one logical conclusion that everyone should probably make. It will always be a dick measuring contest as long as you have people who arent able or willing to admit when they were wrong. In ten years everyone here will act like they were Deshaun Watson fan #1.
I'll have the receipts.
I wont
I've already said DW4's better than I thought he would be.
Matt Schaub made a pro bowl
Not true at all.
This has nothing to do with that playoff game.. The better team won.
This is about DW4 still making the same mistakes 2 + yrs later.