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Before the season started...

Would you take a 6-3 record at the Bye?

  • Yes

    Votes: 32 97.0%
  • I’m Lying

    Votes: 1 3.0%

  • Total voters
    33
I see the situation being reversed, a top notch winning coach gets high one night and accepts Cal's offer. No self respecting winning coach is going to come to team with a meddling owner with a 2 year deficiency in high draft picks.

I've made that same point to a lot of folks who have defended that Tunsil trade about how hard it will be to fight a great HC that has other options. Watson will be a big draw, but the lack of draft picks and the Texans management history in general isn't good. I meant more down the line than in recent coming years. Like I said, "by accident."
 
I see the situation being reversed, a top notch winning coach gets high one night and accepts Cal's offer. No self respecting winning coach is going to come to team with a meddling owner with a 2 year deficiency in high draft picks.

BOB will be back next yr.
 
I've made that same point to a lot of folks who have defended that Tunsil trade about how hard it will be to fight a great HC that has other options. Watson will be a big draw, but the lack of draft picks and the Texans management history in general isn't good. I meant more down the line than in recent coming years. Like I said, "by accident."
Point noted, a good example is Jerry Jones when he lucked out when Bill Parcels said yes. Bill could not leave fast enough when his contract ended. Looks like Jerry will get another chance to try and get lucky with a coach hire. Hard to imagine how a successful coach would want to be a part of Jerry's Circus.

You know when Parcels and Jimmy Johnson left the Cowboys the word went out to all of the coaching fraternity about all of the negatives working for Jerry Jones and how it could be hazardous to your coaching career.
 
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For the sake of progress I'd like to know what the Watson doubters mean when they say "not much progress has been made" so that we can further the discussion in a positive way and actually achieve some resolutions instead of just loaded, blanket statements that usually end up counter-productive.

I saw something like "Watson needs to be more accurate" ... "drifting to his right" (WHAT?? first time i've EVER heard that LOL) .. all that really needs to be done is that you pull up the passing stats right?


Deshaun Watson is the 6th ranked passer in the NFL according to the stats (67.7%) So a statement like that confuses me. What do you mean by "he needs to be more accurate"?

He "needs to learn how to read defenses better" again how can you defend this position and help me see it your way? I've seen Watson give post game instructional speeches on what he's seeing that day, and how you're supposed to attack the particular defensive front. Another confusing statement that seems to be more subjective tunnel vision.

Here are OBriens last 5 QBs and their completion %:

Fitz 2014 - 63.1%
Hoyer 2015 - 60.7%
Oz - 2016 - 59%
Savage 2017 - 56.1%
Watson 2018 - 68.3%
 
For the sake of progress I'd like to know what the Watson doubters mean when they say "not much progress has been made" so that we can further the discussion in a positive way and actually achieve some resolutions instead of just loaded, blanket statements that usually end up counter-productive.

I saw something like "Watson needs to be more accurate" ... "drifting to his right" (WHAT?? first time i've EVER heard that LOL) .. all that really needs to be done is that you pull up the passing stats right?


Deshaun Watson is the 6th ranked passer in the NFL according to the stats (67.7%) So a statement like that confuses me. What do you mean by "he needs to be more accurate"?

He "needs to learn how to read defenses better" again how can you defend this position and help me see it your way? I've seen Watson give post game instructional speeches on what he's seeing that day, and how you're supposed to attack the particular defensive front. Another confusing statement that seems to be more subjective tunnel vision.

Here are OBriens last 5 QBs and their completion %:

Fitz 2014 - 63.1%
Hoyer 2015 - 60.7%
Oz - 2016 - 59%
Savage 2017 - 56.1%
Watson 2018 - 68.3%

Look at the last 4 games, not just the stats (But you can look at them if you wish) for your answer.
 
I saw something like "Watson needs to be more accurate" ... "drifting to his right" (WHAT?? first time i've EVER heard that LOL) .

If you watch, he always drifts right before any other move. Sometimes for the good sometimes not
 
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@steelbtexan , @JB

If you guys can provide for me some video or some links where I can study this so called "drift" im just going to lump it in as more conjecture with the hand size myth, the velocity myth, the stature myth, the IQ myth etc.. etc... some quick searches on "Deshaun Watson drifts to right on throws" doesnt seem to produce any results on this issue. I'll make sure to add this to the "designed QB runs" note to watch for this week.

Seems to me you guys want Deshaun to be PERFECT otherwise he doesnt reach YOUR expectations and when you are presented with FACTS on how what you are claiming doesnt make sense, it just turns into a "I know you are but what am I" exercise.

Im willing to give your claims some merit if you can point me in the right direction. Its an interesting topic since I have not noticed that at all. If by "drifting" does that include intentional moving pockets? Scrambles? His passing pocket has been garbage lately is this a recency bias? You're just saying on most throws even when he goes left hash, he's drifting right? Strange, but still I'll give it the due process if you guys can offer more than just personal opinion. Lets get some numbers/tangibles to validate your eye test.
 
Do you have a play in mind that we can dissect?

I would think if a QB "feels" pressure, they would drift more towards the side they can see or step up in the pocket if available. I wouldn't think it's wise to drift towards your blind side.

just go back and look at any game.

quite often there doesn't have to be pressure before DW4 starts drifting to his right. I've pointed this out in gameday threads.
 
just go back and look at any game.

quite often there doesn't have to be pressure before DW4 starts drifting to his right. I've pointed this out in gameday threads.

Sorry, I don't have that kind of time. If you have a specific play in mind, though, I can quickly look it up.
 
"people see what they want to" ... "just go back and look AT ANY GAME" thats just more BS. If you cant defend your stance than you're just a troll and you arent to be taken serious. You could attack his T2T, his issues with red zone INTS, his layer progressions, so many things that could be expounded upon, but yet its just "he drifts right on his throws, and he sucks" LOL I mean wow thats really eye opening stuff right there.

Here ... since he's doing it "ALL THE TIME" lets start to look at some video together:


~very first throw is an INTENTIONAL MOVING POCKET (do you understand what that means before we move on?) last play of the Saints montage, he DRIFTS RIGHT to avoid pressure.
~3rd play Chargers montage, Watson takes two steps right to get a clear throwing lane - is that "drifting right"?

you know what I dont need to do this. this is so flagrant a biased take that I dont even need to finish the video.

Hard to find "Deshaun Watson Lowlights" .. and harder to believe that with all the certified football nerds out there that this easy to spot deficiency hasnt been identified by paid analysts.

Just another fan legend, but again even without the supporting evidence to the contrary I'll be sure to notate this peculiarity in the coming game how many times this occurs and the context/result of the play. Should be fun.
 
Watch the game Sunday.

I watch every play of every game. I then even go back and watch the All-22 on several plays I remember from the game I like to review. I haven't noticed any "favorable drifting to the right". He does drift towards the side of the field he anticipates someone will come open, but I haven't noticed that being predominantly to the right.
 
I watch every play of every game. I then even go back and watch the All-22 on several plays I remember from the game I like to review. I haven't noticed any "favorable drifting to the right". He does drift towards the side of the field he anticipates someone will come open, but I haven't noticed that being predominantly to the right.

We must be watching different QB play then
 
We must be watching different QB play then
Because of some of your takes, wouldn't surprise me! :)

But in seriousness, not saying it doesn't happen, just that I don't notice it. Was hoping you (or anyone) remembered any plays off the top of your head so I could check it out. Wish I did, but don't have the time to go back and watch every passing play and see if he has a tendency to drift to the right for no reason.
 
Because of some of your takes, wouldn't surprise me! :)

But in seriousness, not saying it doesn't happen, just that I don't notice it. Was hoping you (or anyone) remembered any plays off the top of your head so I could check it out. Wish I did, but don't have the time to go back and watch every passing play and see if he has a tendency to drift to the right for no reason.

I dont know how to do screenshots. But it's there.
 
So far I've rewatched all the plays of the first two drives, and I don't see it.
There were a couple of plays where the flow of the pass rush and/or where the receivers were that forced Watson to the right.
Watson didn't drift.
He didn't struggle.
Other guys on the offense did.
And the Broncos led 14-0.
Not Watson's fault.
......
On the third drive, Watson did make a mistake by taking the.sack on 2nd and 5 instead of throwing the ball away.
But he didn't drift right.
 
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Good to see you posting again.

Hope to see more of your posts.

I've managed to take over your spot as most disliked poster on this MB, due to my position of the Texans cant win a SB with DW4 at QB. Which really makes me chuckle.
Probably because you make asinine opinions. Nobody is above being criticized, but to say with his early production despite the coach is ridiculous. We never hear you complain about how OBrien inherited a top 10 ish oline and it has gotten worse under his watch. Nor do we hear your complaints with the qb shuffle he had going on either.
 
So far I've rewatched all the plays of the first two drives, and I don't see it.
There were a couple of plays where the flow of the pass rush and/or where the receivers were that forced Watson to the right.
Watson didn't drift.
He didn't struggle.
Other guys on the offense did.
And the Broncos led 14-0.
Not Watson's fault.
......
On the third drive, Watson did make a mistake by taking the.sack on 2nd and 5 instead of throwing the ball away.
But he didn't drift right.

Clint Stoerner and Wade Smith discussed the sack. They said WR spacing was an issue on the play. Listen at the 14:00 to 17:00 mark. They talk about the WR spacing impacts the QB view and progressions. Coutee's route not only takes him into Hopkins route, but also gets into Watson's throwing lane, if forces Watson to hold the ball, scramble and he ends up getting sacked.

So, here you have a Hopkins running an IN, Coutee running a crosser and either the routes or play design contributes to the sack, but we only see Watson holding the ball, scrambling and getting sacked.

Link
 
Probably because you make asinine opinions. Nobody is above being criticized, but to say with his early production despite the coach is ridiculous. We never hear you complain about how OBrien inherited a top 10 ish oline and it has gotten worse under his watch. Nor do we hear your complaints with the qb shuffle he had going on either.

My opinion is that the Texans cant win a championship with Watson at QB unless he improves in the areas I've stated many times before. That's an asinine opinion. IYO?

Oh I've complained many times about Hoyer/not drafting Jimmy G/Mallett's immaturity etc....
 
Do you have a play in mind that we can dissect?

I would think if a QB "feels" pressure, they would drift more towards the side they can see or step up in the pocket if available. I wouldn't think it's wise to drift towards your blind side.

I remember one against the Colts. There was a 3 man rush. Pocket was good. But he didn't see anything he liked. Stepping up in the pocket would have bought more time & kept his OL in good position to keep their blocks.

But he bounced (not drift) to his right & ran around Howard to where the defender had a straight shot at him.

Sacked by a three man rush.

There were a lot of them that game.
 
~very first throw is an INTENTIONAL MOVING POCKET

That first throw (smh) should have been a TD, but Watson threw it late, or behind Fuller.

That's another fault he needs to improve & a good example how completion percentage doesn't equal accuracy.
 
Clint Stoerner and Wade Smith discussed the sack. They said WR spacing was an issue on the play. Listen at the 14:00 to 17:00 mark. They talk about the WR spacing impacts the QB view and progressions. Coutee's route not only takes him into Hopkins route, but also gets into Watson's throwing lane, if forces Watson to hold the ball, scramble and he ends up getting sacked.

So, here you have a Hopkins running an IN, Coutee running a crosser and either the routes or play design contributes to the sack, but we only see Watson holding the ball, scrambling and getting sacked.

Link

I’ve noticed this in multiple games, and this needs to be corrected IMO. In the Denver debacle I remember a play where Watson looked at Fells in the middle of the field only to have Hyde release directly in his path. You could see it clearly on the replay. I’ve also seen it consistently with Coutee, he’ll run his route into another WRs area. I think this is one of the reasons why his playing time has decreased
 
That first throw (smh) should have been a TD, but Watson threw it late, or behind Fuller.

That's another fault he needs to improve & a good example how completion percentage doesn't equal accuracy.

LOL .. "another fault" .. I appreciate the balance. Point noted. Deshaun needs more 158.3 games to keep the wolves at bay. When do we get to talk about all the dropped balls his receivers reward him with just as often as these phantom drifting gripes and accuracy concerns? Yeah scratch that I wont play the "whataboutism" card. What I will do is start to canvass these "concerns" of yalls across the NFL landscape with all the analysts and commentators on the social media platforms and see if these guys who watch football all day long have picked up on these career threatening deficiencies! I hope Deshaun Watson will be OK!? I mean only year 3, breaking records, already one pro bowl. LOL. Some guys just want to see the world burn!!
 
Lets talk about this "drift step":


after doing some research, and watching Watsons mechanics, I've come to the conlusion that this "drift" when not initiated by a pass rush, or collapsing pocket is an intentional QB technique that Watson has been taught. Deshaun is even doing the heel pop when looking at the video.

On to the next conspiracy.
 
Clint Stoerner and Wade Smith discussed the sack. They said WR spacing was an issue on the play. Listen at the 14:00 to 17:00 mark. They talk about the WR spacing impacts the QB view and progressions. Coutee's route not only takes him into Hopkins route, but also gets into Watson's throwing lane, if forces Watson to hold the ball, scramble and he ends up getting sacked.

So, here you have a Hopkins running an IN, Coutee running a crosser and either the routes or play design contributes to the sack, but we only see Watson holding the ball, scrambling and getting sacked.

Link
What I don't like on that play design is actually the lack of a proper protection scheme on the right.
The Texans were in 11P, TE (Fells) strong right, Stills split right, Hopkins and Coutee staggered left.
The Texans went play action with Fells pulled inside up the middle between the C and the RG, followed by the RB (Hyde).

Watson looked right to Stills, whose route I can't see, but in the same line of sight with the routes by Fells and Hyde.
Fells went up the middle for about 3 yards and hooked right, covered by the WILB.
Hyde hid underneath the TE and was uncovered.

Unfortunately, the RG was pushed back and the LDT was in great position to bat the ball down, forcing Watson to pull the ball back.

Here, the weakness by the RG killed all 3 routes.

Still, I think that by the 4-second mark, Watson should have just thrown that ball away.
It was only 2nd and 5.

....................

Note:
1st Qtr - 1:37
2 and 5 @ midfield
Deshaun Watson sacked by Jeremiah Attaochu for -9 yards
 
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I remember one against the Colts. There was a 3 man rush. Pocket was good. But he didn't see anything he liked. Stepping up in the pocket would have bought more time & kept his OL in good position to keep their blocks.

But he bounced (not drift) to his right & ran around Howard to where the defender had a straight shot at him.

Sacked by a three man rush.

There were a lot of them that game.
Name the play.
Time, field position, down and distance, etc.
You know what they say about "memory".
 
That first throw (smh) should have been a TD, but Watson threw it late, or behind Fuller.

That's another fault he needs to improve & a good example how completion percentage doesn't equal accuracy.
Watson would need a computer chip in his head to time the throw perfectly, like a heat seeking missile or something.
Can he throw the ball longer? I don't know. That might have been the top of his throwing velocity without stepping up the pocket.
Still a deeper ball than Schaub ever threw, even when stepping up, LOL.
 
I remember one against the Colts. There was a 3 man rush. Pocket was good. But he didn't see anything he liked. Stepping up in the pocket would have bought more time & kept his OL in good position to keep their blocks.

But he bounced (not drift) to his right & ran around Howard to where the defender had a straight shot at him.

Sacked by a three man rush.

There were a lot of them that game.
I'll see if I have time over the weekend to check this out. Is this Colts I or Colts II?
 
Clint Stoerner and Wade Smith discussed the sack. They said WR spacing was an issue on the play. Listen at the 14:00 to 17:00 mark. They talk about the WR spacing impacts the QB view and progressions. Coutee's route not only takes him into Hopkins route, but also gets into Watson's throwing lane, if forces Watson to hold the ball, scramble and he ends up getting sacked.

So, here you have a Hopkins running an IN, Coutee running a crosser and either the routes or play design contributes to the sack, but we only see Watson holding the ball, scrambling and getting sacked.

Link

Lets expound on that thought a bit more. Passing layers and combo route absence in the playbook has been hit on by multiple analysts and stat nerds, they've been presented here many times, but they done seem to resonate. I ran across these visualizations while surfing around and I spit up my Coke Zero when I got to OBriens little GIF. If you notice all the other passing attacks - look at how they incorporate layers into the game giving the QB multiple options, from quick reads and hots, to intermediate zone busters. O'briens attempt is to outrun the DBs in deep chunks, AND it creates the spacing issue you noted, and others have been picking up on slowly, but surely. Why have your guys run 20 yards downfield before they cross up? Strange application of passing concepts. I know, I know .. "its only one play" AND its coming off play action, but OBrien wants Watson to sell the run, and then WAIT for the 1st option to cross the 2nd option and WAtson chooses which guy to hit. SPACING IS A PROBLEM. TIME TO THROW IS A PROBLEM. Watson eats alot of the sacks due to his playstyle, but as much as guys say OBrien has modified his offense, and much of it is true, he still leaves alot to be desired in the implementation of modern passing vs the modern nfl defense. Sorry you guys will have to click and scroll down on the link.

 
Lets expound on that thought a bit more. Passing layers and combo route absence in the playbook has been hit on by multiple analysts and stat nerds, they've been presented here many times, but they done seem to resonate. I ran across these visualizations while surfing around and I spit up my Coke Zero when I got to OBriens little GIF. If you notice all the other passing attacks - look at how they incorporate layers into the game giving the QB multiple options, from quick reads and hots, to intermediate zone busters. O'briens attempt is to outrun the DBs in deep chunks, AND it creates the spacing issue you noted, and others have been picking up on slowly, but surely. Why have your guys run 20 yards downfield before they cross up? Strange application of passing concepts. I know, I know .. "its only one play" AND its coming off play action, but OBrien wants Watson to sell the run, and then WAIT for the 1st option to cross the 2nd option and WAtson chooses which guy to hit. SPACING IS A PROBLEM. TIME TO THROW IS A PROBLEM. Watson eats alot of the sacks due to his playstyle, but as much as guys say OBrien has modified his offense, and much of it is true, he still leaves alot to be desired in the implementation of modern passing vs the modern nfl defense. Sorry you guys will have to click and scroll down on the link.


Tennessee's offense:
Tennessee.gif


Houston's:
Houston.gif



We're screwed.
 
Tennessee's offense:
Tennessee.gif


Houston's:
Houston.gif



We're screwed.

duuuuude you got the snips to work I couldn’t! Lol. Granted those plays are from last years playbooks I’d need a guy who watches more Tenn games than me to chime in. I’d say a LeFleur offense is more creative than OBrien but it’s really been hit or miss in GB. Not sure how much that’s due to QB regression, or 1st year jitters just an opinion to keep it level. I do like the RPO look that leads into the POP pass at REC2. I’ve seen OBrien do it a couple of times.
 
see if these guys who watch football all day long have picked up on these career threatening deficiencies!

Whoa... I never said career threatening.

If Drew Brees were our QB I'd pick out a few faults in his game.

There's no doubt in my mind DW4 can bring a Lombardi to Houston, but that's not saying he will. Andrew Luck didn't win one. Matthew Stafford didn't, Carson Palmer didn't, Phillip Rivers won't... lot of talented guys out there that have not & will not.

If Watson is going to have this organization around him, he's going to have to be better than he is now. That's all I'm saying.
 
Name the play.
Time, field position, down and distance, etc.
You know what they say about "memory".

I'm watching the game again now. I haven't got to that play yet. But 1st qtr 6:57


As an aside. They just showed Indy as having the 11th ranked pass defense at the time of this game. So that's Baltimore, Indy, New England, & Denver... those some stout passing defenses right there.
 
I'm watching the game again now. I haven't got to that play yet. But 1st qtr 6:57


As an aside. They just showed Indy as having the 11th ranked pass defense at the time of this game. So that's Baltimore, Indy, New England, & Denver... those some stout passing defenses right there.
Game 2 vs. Indy
1st Qtr 6:57
3rd and 10
Watson pass incomplete deep right.

Indy with a 3-man rush, yet they were able to squeeze both edges as the tackles were left on an their own island.
Watson stepped up the pocket.
At this time, both guards left the C to go help on the OTs.
Watson saw the RDT (who had dropped back) coming down so he didn't try to escape.
Instead he retreated, knowing he has double protection on both edges now.
At that time, the DBs had all the receivers on this side (the right) covered, so he simply threw the ball away.

I don't see anything wrong with that decision.
 
Game 2 vs. Indy
1st Qtr 6:57
3rd and 10
Watson pass incomplete deep right.

Indy with a 3-man rush, yet they were able to squeeze both edges as the tackles were left on an their own island.
Watson stepped up the pocket.
At this time, both guards left the C to go help on the OTs.
Watson saw the RDT (who had dropped back) coming down so he didn't try to escape.
Instead he retreated, knowing he has double protection on both edges now.
At that time, the DBs had all the receivers on this side (the right) covered, so he simply threw the ball away.

I don't see anything wrong with that decision.

We're not questioning his decision. It's his tendency to bounce to the right despite a perfectly good pocket.

If that's the way you saw it, there's nothing further to discuss as that is not what happened. Watson stands in the pocket then after seeing everyone covered he bounces to his right, even though the pocket is fine at that time.

He then bounces to his left, then the pocket completely breaks down & he escapes to his right.
 
I remember one against the Colts. There was a 3 man rush. Pocket was good. But he didn't see anything he liked. Stepping up in the pocket would have bought more time & kept his OL in good position to keep their blocks.

But he bounced (not drift) to his right & ran around Howard to where the defender had a straight shot at him.

Sacked by a three man rush.

There were a lot of them that game.

So my memory is faulty. I saw the play I thought of last night. Watson steps up into the pocket like he should & that puts Howard in a compromised position. Had Watson a receiver to throw the ball to or he threw it away, it wouldn't have been an issue.
 
So my memory is faulty. I saw the play I thought of last night. Watson steps up into the pocket like he should & that puts Howard in a compromised position. Had Watson a receiver to throw the ball to or he threw it away, it wouldn't have been an issue.

The one I mostly think of he has a clean pocket and takes a half-step right while looking left, then goes left into the DE, ecapes to the right and is sacked by the DT...

It was the game right after @steelbtexan mentioned it for the first time. I looked for it and it was early in the game. Watson took that bounce right that put him closer to the rusher there and then took a short run left and then back-tracked right into the sack. Wasn't a big pocket or clean for long but long enough
 
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We're not questioning his decision. It's his tendency to bounce to the right despite a perfectly good pocket.

If that's the way you saw it, there's nothing further to discuss as that is not what happened. Watson stands in the pocket then after seeing everyone covered he bounces to his right, even though the pocket is fine at that time.

He then bounces to his left, then the pocket completely breaks down & he escapes to his right.
Play it in super slo mo.

Look at the formation on both sides.

1. Were both OTs on an island to begin with?

2. Did they get squeezed in toward Watson?
 
Not before his first step to the right. Pocket was clean.
Again, like I said.
Watch it in slow motion.
The LDE walks the RT toward Watson and threatens the inside gap initially such that the QB can't step up.
If Watson stays where he was, the LDE would continue to push the RT further back. One or both of them will end up in Watson's face.
That's why Watson took that initial step to his right.

If the LDE continues to attack the inside, Watson will slide further right and might even roll out toward many receiver routes on that side.

But the LDE went back to attack the edge; he wanted to contain while collapsing the pocket at the same time.
 
Then he could step to his left
So he could run into the RDE and the LT, with no receiver to throw the ball to?

Not to mention that the LDE also has a clear path to him as well.

Corner oneself in, they say.

But most importantly, it't not a tendency as steelb likes to suggest.

Watson was simply moving in the direction he thinks that will give the better chance to complete a pass.

That's all there is to it.
 
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