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2019 Training Camp

TheKDog said:
Several of those games had the offense turning it over in Texas territory, special teams giving up TDs, and the defense forcing turnovers in opponent red areas
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For the record, in the last 5 regular seasons (that's 80 games) the Texans ST has given up three total TD's. One Kickoff (2016) and two punts (2016 & 2017).

Just checking the 2018 season:

0 Special Teams TD's given up

3 Texans offensive turnovers in the Red Zone (NE, DAL, WAS)

So basically your argument is that the Offense and Special Teams gave up 21 points all season.
 
sandman said:
For the record, in the last 5 regular seasons (that's 80 games) the Texans ST has given up three total TD's. One Kickoff (2016) and two punts (2016 & 2017).

Just checking the 2018 season:

0 Special Teams TD's given up

3 Texans offensive turnovers in the Red Zone (NE, DAL, WAS)

So basically your argument is that the Offense and Special Teams gave up 21 points all season.
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It’s what happens when you argue from an emotional point of view instead of a factual one.
 
zshawn10 said:
Bill O'Brien "he's had a really good camp" on Matt Kalil. "I think he's had a very consistent camp." #Texans

— Anthony Wood (@arwoodNFL) August 14, 2019


O’Brien said he is unaware of all the trade speculation surrounding Clowney.

— Brian T. Smith (@ChronBrianSmith) August 14, 2019
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1 of my big gripes with BoB is how he tries to act like he's so tuned out to whats going on around him. With him being part of the de facto GM crew, him saying he's "unaware" of all the trade speculation is just disingenious.
 
Mr teX said:
1 of my big gripes with BoB is how he tries to act like he's so tuned out to whats going on around him. With him being part of the de facto GM crew, him saying he's "unaware" of all the trade speculation is just disingenious.
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You don’t think it IS because of his de facto GM crew status that he is dismissive? If by any chance they are working on a deal he could wreck it especially if a team is mentioned. Rumors are already out there so no pot needs to be stirred....and whatever the situation is would it be fair to Clowney to discuss it?
 
Mr teX said:
1 of my big gripes with BoB is how he tries to act like he's so tuned out to whats going on around him. With him being part of the de facto GM crew, him saying he's "unaware" of all the trade speculation is just disingenious.
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Agreed, this had some legs on it when we had a GM and in particular when him and the Gm were fighting but now it just makes him sound like he is as much an idiot as some on here say. You know whats going on Bill, we know you know whats going on Bill, why don't you know that we know that you know Bill.

Dejaview said:
You don’t think it IS because of his de facto GM crew status that he is dismissive? If by any chance they are working on a deal he could wreck it especially if a team is mentioned. Rumors are already out there so no pot needs to be stirred....and whatever the situation is would it be fair to Clowney to discuss it?
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There are better ways to do it. You can say "I can't talk about internal discussions" or 'I can neither confirm or deny any rumors" or one of my favorites "All I can say is we are doing everything we can for our organization, our players and above all our fans to put the best product on the field we possibly can."

I still remember Elway after we snatched Osweiler away and he had to sign butt fumble telling Bronc fans that it was just phase one of a plan and that they weren't done yet. Didn't work out so well but he at least reassured the fans.
 
sandman said:
To be fair I just realized that he said the Texans turning it over in their own territory, not in their own RZ. There was one other offensive turnover inside their own 45 against Buffalo at their 30 that led to a FG.

So 24 points.
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I quoted his original post in my post #542..that's not what he originally said, he unsurprisingly wen't back & edited his post either to fit what he meant or for it to fit his narrative. .
 
Mr teX said:
I quoted his original post in my post #542..that's not what he originally said, he unsurprisingly wen't back & edited his post either to fit what he meant or for it to fit his narrative. .
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I think I quoted #536 where you quoted #540. Said basically the same thing two different ways.

No matter the spin, at least for 2018, his points didn't have merit.

BTW, I did also check the Texans D causing turnovers in the opponents RZ. They did it 5 times in 2018, with the offense scoring 4 TD's and 1 FG on the next series. And there were three Defensive TD's. Which proves that we have a good defense.

So if we are going to play this game of having scoring stats for all three segments of the team, and giving the defense a pass on the Texans TO's in the RZ and giving them the credit for creating TO's in opponent RZ's (I think this covers every possible scenario where the defense gets the benefit of credit but none of the blame):

Texans Offense: 402 points scored on the season - 0 Special Team points - 24 Defense RZ TO points - 21 Defense TD points - demerit for 24 Offense RZ TO points = 20.8 net points scored per game making them the #23 scoring offense.

Texans Defense: 316 points allowed on the season - 24 Offense RZ TO points + credit for 21 Defense TD points + credit for 24 Defense RZ TO points = 15.4 net points allowed per game making them the #1 scoring defense by far.

I'm going to go take a nap now after all of these mental gymnastics...
 
sandman said:
I think I quoted #536 where you quoted #540. Said basically the same thing two different ways.

No matter the spin, at least for 2018, his points didn't have merit.

BTW, I did also check the Texans D causing turnovers in the opponents RZ. They did it 5 times in 2018, with the offense scoring 4 TD's and 1 FG on the next series. And there were three Defensive TD's. Which proves that we have a good defense.

So if we are going to play this game of having scoring stats for all three segments of the team, and giving the defense a pass on the Texans TO's in the RZ and giving them the credit for creating TO's in opponent RZ's (I think this covers every possible scenario where the defense gets the benefit of credit but none of the blame):

Texans Offense: 402 points scored on the season - 0 Special Team points - 24 Defense RZ TO points - 21 Defense TD points - demerit for 24 Offense RZ TO points = 20.8 net points scored per game making them the #23 scoring offense.

Texans Defense: 316 points allowed on the season - 24 Offense RZ TO points + credit for 21 Defense TD points + credit for 24 Defense RZ TO points = 15.4 net points allowed per game making them the #1 scoring defense by far.

I'm going to go take a nap now after all of these mental gymnastics...
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Appreciate your input Sandman. Have a nice nap..lol.
 
I broke down games in previous posts, like the KC playoff game, the NE playoff game, and the Philly game last year where the special teams and offense were at fault for a bunch of points given up.

The defense has often played well with the offense and special teams screwing up. Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head.

Football outsiders and PFF take stuff like that into account which is why they both rank the defense high (and the offense low)
 
against the chiefs:
-the chiefs scored on special teams on the opening kickoff
-hoyer INT in the Texans red area was followed by a Texans defensive interception
-hoyer fumbled and chiefs drove 27 yards for a field goal
-texans had a 5 play, 11 yard drive which was followed by a 40 yard drive and field goal by the chiefs
-the Texans ended the first half with two more interceptions, after which the defense forced the chiefs into punts
-in the 3rd, the chiefs had two legitimate long TD drives
-after another INT on the Texans side, the chiefs drove 6 yards for a field goal.

I found the defense giving up 14, maybe 17 points attributable to them.

The Texans offense, as we know, had not even a field goal drive.
Then Patriots game tells a similar story.

-the Pats had a legit 65 yard td drive in the first quarter after the texans offense went three and out twice
-after a Texans FG, the pats return the kickoff for a TD. (Remember it was OBrien who brought in Novak who couldn't get touchbacks)
-Bouye intercepts Brady in the pats side of the field, and the Texans, already in field goal range, kick a field goal
-the pats fumble on the ensuing kickoff and the Texans get a 12 yard td drive
-the pats end the half with a 66 yard field goal drive
-second half, pats first drive goes three and out and their second is a legit 90 yard TD drive
-the Texans throw an INT in the Texans red area (sound familiar?) and the pats score on a 6 yard TD drive
-the pats tack on another FG on a 43 yard drive

The Texans offense had one scoring drive of over 20 yards the entire game. They were practically shut out.

I count 20 points for the Pats attributable to the Texans d. The rest were due to the offense and special teams and OBriens coaching


This is basically how it is a lot of the time. The defense has to get out of bad positions the offense puts them in
 
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This guy....
 
TheKDog said:
against the chiefs:
-the chiefs scored on special teams on the opening kickoff
-hoyer INT in the Texans red area was followed by a Texans defensive interception
-hoyer fumbled and chiefs drove 27 yards for a field goal
-texans had a 5 play, 11 yard drive which was followed by a 40 yard drive and field goal by the chiefs
-the Texans ended the first half with two more interceptions, after which the defense forced the chiefs into punts
-in the 3rd, the chiefs had two legitimate long TD drives
-after another INT on the Texans side, the chiefs drove 6 yards for a field goal.

I found the defense giving up 14, maybe 17 points attributable to them.

The Texans offense, as we know, had not even a field goal drive.
Then Patriots game tells a similar story.

-the Pats had a legit 65 yard td drive in the first quarter after the texans offense went three and out twice
-after a Texans FG, the pats return the kickoff for a TD. (Remember it was OBrien who brought in Novak who couldn't get touchbacks)
-Bouye intercepts Brady in the pats side of the field, and the Texans, already in field goal range, kick a field goal
-the pats fumble on the ensuing kickoff and the Texans get a 12 yard td drive
-the pats end the half with a 66 yard field goal drive
-second half, pats first drive goes three and out and their second is a legit 90 yard TD drive
-the Texans throw an INT in the Texans red area (sound familiar?) and the pats score on a 6 yard TD drive
-the pats tack on another FG on a 43 yard drive

The Texans offense had one scoring drive of over 20 yards the entire game. They were practically shut out.

I count 20 points for the Pats attributable to the Texans d. The rest were due to the offense and special teams and OBriens coaching


This is basically how it is a lot of the time. The defense has to get out of bad positions the offense puts them in
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So you are talking about a 2015 playoff game where Brian Freaking Hoyer had a HISTORICALLY bad performance and a 2016 playoff game with Brock (Is he even still in the league) Osweiller against the Super Bowl Champions.

Granted, I get that the playoffs are important, and OB's teams haven't really shown that they respond well in the playoffs.

But I pointed out in the entire 2018 season where there were four situations where the offense or special teams put the defense in a bind, according to your definitions. And only one of those four situations was in a loss.

So no, it is not a lot of the time as you continually assert. You're just beating the dead horse of a few games that occurred before Watson was drafted.
 
TheKDog said:
I broke down games in previous posts, like the KC playoff game, the NE playoff game, and the Philly game last year where the special teams and offense were at fault for a bunch of points given up.

The defense has often played well with the offense and special teams screwing up. Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head.

Football outsiders and PFF take stuff like that into account which is why they both rank the defense high (and the offense low)
Click to expand...

I just want to point this out about the Philly game last year.

Texans Drives and PHI field position on ensuing drive:
1. Punt - PHI starts on own 23 (77 yard TD drive)
2. Field Goal - PHI starts at own 24
3. Punt - PHI starts on own 10
4. TD - Touchback, PHI starts on own 25 (75 yard TD drive)
5. TD - Touchback, PHI starts on own 25
2nd Half Kickoff - PHI starts on own 21
6. Punt - PHI starts on own 12 (59 yard FG drive)
7. Punt - PHI starts on own 17 (83 yard TD drive on one play)
8. Fumble - PHI starts on TEX 44 (44 yard TD drive)
9. Downs - PHI starts on own 24
10. TD - PHI starts on own 45 (PHI punts)
11. TD - PHI starts on own 11 (77 yard FG drive in 90 seconds)

Outside of two drives, all of Philly's drives started within their own 25.
Texans special teams only punted 4 times, with all being downed within the Philly 25.
Texans special teams kicked off 6 times, with only one getting past the Philly 25.
Texans offense only had one turnover, with it barely being past midfield.

But the Texans defense gave up FOUR scoring drives of 75+ yards.

I'm struggling to understand where the Texans offense and special teams are at fault for a bunch of points given up. I'm also struggling to understand how a defense that gave up 4 very long scoring drives is considered to have played well. I'm using the game you hand-picked as an example.
 
sandman said:
So you are talking about a 2015 playoff game where Brian Freaking Hoyer had a HISTORICALLY bad performance and a 2016 playoff game with Brock (Is he even still in the league) Osweiller against the Super Bowl Champions.

Granted, I get that the playoffs are important, and OB's teams haven't really shown that they respond well in the playoffs.

But I pointed out in the entire 2018 season where there were four situations where the offense or special teams put the defense in a bind, according to your definitions. And only one of those four situations was in a loss.

So no, it is not a lot of the time as you continually assert. You're just beating the dead horse of a few games that occurred before Watson was drafted.
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Weird how bill OBrien just unluckily has historically bad offensive performances in the playoffs.

Just bad luck I guess.

Also, the offense was #1 in field position thanks to the defense and special teams
 
TheKDog said:
against the chiefs:
-the chiefs scored on special teams on the opening kickoff
-hoyer INT in the Texans red area was followed by a Texans defensive interception
-hoyer fumbled and chiefs drove 27 yards for a field goal
-texans had a 5 play, 11 yard drive which was followed by a 40 yard drive and field goal by the chiefs
-the Texans ended the first half with two more interceptions, after which the defense forced the chiefs into punts
-in the 3rd, the chiefs had two legitimate long TD drives
-after another INT on the Texans side, the chiefs drove 6 yards for a field goal.

I found the defense giving up 14, maybe 17 points attributable to them.

The Texans offense, as we know, had not even a field goal drive.
Then Patriots game tells a similar story.

-the Pats had a legit 65 yard td drive in the first quarter after the texans offense went three and out twice
-after a Texans FG, the pats return the kickoff for a TD. (Remember it was OBrien who brought in Novak who couldn't get touchbacks)
-Bouye intercepts Brady in the pats side of the field, and the Texans, already in field goal range, kick a field goal
-the pats fumble on the ensuing kickoff and the Texans get a 12 yard td drive
-the pats end the half with a 66 yard field goal drive
-second half, pats first drive goes three and out and their second is a legit 90 yard TD drive
-the Texans throw an INT in the Texans red area (sound familiar?) and the pats score on a 6 yard TD drive
-the pats tack on another FG on a 43 yard drive

The Texans offense had one scoring drive of over 20 yards the entire game. They were practically shut out.

I count 20 points for the Pats attributable to the Texans d. The rest were due to the offense and special teams and OBriens coaching


This is basically how it is a lot of the time. The defense has to get out of bad positions the offense puts them in
Click to expand...

I see we've got a numbers guy that probably hasn't played much if any football.
 
sandman said:
I just want to point this out about the Philly game last year.

Texans Drives and PHI field position on ensuing drive:
1. Punt - PHI starts on own 23 (77 yard TD drive)
2. Field Goal - PHI starts at own 24
3. Punt - PHI starts on own 10
4. TD - Touchback, PHI starts on own 25 (75 yard TD drive)
5. TD - Touchback, PHI starts on own 25
2nd Half Kickoff - PHI starts on own 21
6. Punt - PHI starts on own 12 (59 yard FG drive)
7. Punt - PHI starts on own 17 (83 yard TD drive on one play)
8. Fumble - PHI starts on TEX 44 (44 yard TD drive)
9. Downs - PHI starts on own 24
10. TD - PHI starts on own 45 (PHI punts)
11. TD - PHI starts on own 11 (77 yard FG drive in 90 seconds)

Outside of two drives, all of Philly's drives started within their own 25.
Texans special teams only punted 4 times, with all being downed within the Philly 25.
Texans special teams kicked off 6 times, with only one getting past the Philly 25.
Texans offense only had one turnover, with it barely being past midfield.

But the Texans defense gave up FOUR scoring drives of 75+ yards.

I'm struggling to understand where the Texans offense and special teams are at fault for a bunch of points given up. I'm also struggling to understand how a defense that gave up 4 very long scoring drives is considered to have played well. I'm using the game you hand-picked as an example.
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On one of the TD drives, the eagles started in Texans territory because Watson was sacked and fumbled.


O'Brien also inexplicably went for it on 4th and 9 in the 4th quarter in long field goal range (the Texans were up 29-16 and ended up losing by 3). You either kick the fg or punt there.

The eagles were also something like 4-4 going for it on 4th down and converted a couple of 3rd and longs on the last drive. That's not really a defense of the defense but also showed there was some bad luck involved (as well as an imploding secondary).

The Texans defense also caused an eagles fumble inside the ten setting up an easy offensive td.

So no that games not really an example of the defense letting down the offense
 
TheKDog said:
On one of the TD drives, the eagles started in Texans territory because Watson was sacked and fumbled.
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Yep, I have that noted on drive #8

TheKDog said:
O'Brien also inexplicably went for it on 4th and 9 in the 4th quarter in long field goal range (the Texans were up 29-16 and ended up losing by 3). You either kick the fg or punt there.
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Don't necessarily disagree but even though they turned it over on downs, the Eagles started inside their 25 and punted.

TheKDog said:
The eagles were also something like 4-4 going for it on 4th down and converted a couple of 3rd and longs on the last drive. That's not really a defense of the defense but also showed there was some bad luck involved (as well as an imploding secondary).
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Again, don't necessarily disagree that statistically the Eagles were well above the mean for 3rd/4th down conversions.

TheKDog said:
The Texans defense also caused an eagles fumble inside the ten setting up an easy offensive td.

So no that games not really an example of the defense letting down the offense
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We don't live in a binary world. My intent was to use one of your hand-picked examples and show that the offense and special teams didn't let down the defense. Not to say that the defense was at fault for anything. Because you said the offense and special teams were at fault for giving up a lot of points.

We can point to a fumble at the 44 that resulted in a TD. We can point to an 83-yard TD pass given up by the defense. Both sides made mistakes. Singularly as units neither were wholly and completely to blame.
 
TheKDog said:
Weird how bill OBrien just unluckily has historically bad offensive performances in the playoffs.

Just bad luck I guess.

Also, the offense was #1 in field position thanks to the defense and special teams
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I can definitely agree that OB doesn't have his teams well prepared in the playoffs.
 
sandman said:
Yep, I have that noted on drive #8



Don't necessarily disagree but even though they turned it over on downs, the Eagles started inside their 25 and punted.



Again, don't necessarily disagree that statistically the Eagles were well above the mean for 3rd/4th down conversions.



We don't live in a binary world. My intent was to use one of your hand-picked examples and show that the offense and special teams didn't let down the defense. Not to say that the defense was at fault for anything. Because you said the offense and special teams were at fault for giving up a lot of points.

We can point to a fumble at the 44 that resulted in a TD. We can point to an 83-yard TD pass given up by the defense. Both sides made mistakes. Singularly as units neither were wholly and completely to blame.
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Fair enough. My point is people sometimes list games where "the defense gave up 30 points" but when you actually look at the games it's obviously not that simple.

And I agree the secondary was pretty bad towards the end of last year. They're still trying to fix it.
 
Hello? Any news out of today’s training camp? Y'all should REALLY take this “numbers” b1tch fest to the Texans random thought thread.

Fact to the matter is we still suck under O’Brien. I wonder how much we’re sucking against the Lions in joint practice since this thread is supposed to keep us posted on that subject?
 
Tweet from @PatDStat: Loaded up today. #Texans O up and down. Defense has strong day. Quick hitters, Matt Kalil on his health + Whitney Mercilus back where he is best, on the edge. https://twitter.com/SOTTexans/status/1161737050393067521
Mangler said:
Hello? Any news out of today’s training camp? Y'all should REALLY take this “numbers” b1tch fest to the Texans random thought thread.

Fact to the matter is we still suck under O’Brien.
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TheKDog said:
Because he switches from complaining about the ol to defending OBrien.

Can't do both, gotta choose one
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giphy.gif


Bro, that's all you do. switch between complaining about him as a HC & indirectly giving him praise with the defense. See, like it or not, he's responsible for the performance of both the offense & defense falls under him as HEAD COACH...not Crennel. So you choose.
 
Mr teX said:
giphy.gif


Bro, that's all you do. switch between complaining about him as a HC & indirectly giving him praise with the defense. See, like it or not, he's responsible for the performance of both the offense & defense falls under him as HEAD COACH...not Crennel. So you choose.
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I give him credit for bringing in Crennel and getting out of his way. Now if he could do that with an OC...
 
TheKDog said:
Fair enough. My point is people sometimes list games where "the defense gave up 30 points" but when you actually look at the games it's obviously not that simple.

And I agree the secondary was pretty bad towards the end of last year. They're still trying to fix it.
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That's what we've been trying to tell YOU for the past 6789 pages of various threads. It ain't that simple like you try to use you're contrived stats to point out. Statistically, the defense might be ranked higher than the offense in your precious DVOA, but realistically, noone fears our defense LOL & the numbers they've racked is mostly fluff. & obviously, when you dig deeper like look at the qb's they've faced, you can clearly see that its fools gold.
 
TheKDog said:
Tweet from @PatDStat: Loaded up today. #Texans O up and down. Defense has strong day. Quick hitters, Matt Kalil on his health + Whitney Mercilus back where he is best, on the edge. https://twitter.com/SOTTexans/status/1161737050393067521
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Damn. O’Brien truly hasn’t learned jack sh1t. You’d think he would scratch that useless WR screen, yet he’s still calling that play on 3rd and long, EVEN in training camp! Butt Chin truly is in mid season form alright, smh. Good to know the defense is looking good, not that it’s a surprise as they actually have a competent coach in Crennel.
 
Mr teX said:
That's what we've been trying to tell YOU for the past 6789 pages of various threads. It ain't that simple like you try to use you're contrived stats to point out. Statistically, the defense might be ranked higher than the offense in your precious DVOA, but realistically, noone fears our defense LOL & the numbers they've racked is mostly fluff. & obviously, when you dig deeper like look at the qb's they've faced, you can clearly see that its fools gold.
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I think you have it backwards
 
maverick512000 said:
Agreed, this had some legs on it when we had a GM and in particular when him and the Gm were fighting but now it just makes him sound like he is as much an idiot as some on here say. You know whats going on Bill, we know you know whats going on Bill, why don't you know that we know that you know Bill.



There are better ways to do it. You can say "I can't talk about internal discussions" or 'I can neither confirm or deny any rumors" or one of my favorites "All I can say is we are doing everything we can for our organization, our players and above all our fans to put the best product on the field we possibly can."

I still remember Elway after we snatched Osweiler away and he had to sign butt fumble telling Bronc fans that it was just phase one of a plan and that they weren't done yet. Didn't work out so well but he at least reassured the fans.
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C’mon. Man. You seem like a guy that’s held a real job before. In the corporate world we all have had signature authority at some level in a budget. The bigger the budget cut, the higher the authority sets. Clowney’s contract sits in Cal’s Lap and nobody else’s. You know Cal has told his GM team to dismiss any questions regarding anything Clowney. It’s why NOTHING but speculation and rumors abound. It’s just OB’s way of saying “next question”. No matter how he says it someone will be butt hurt. But Cal no doubt is steering this ship.
 
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