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Numbers indicate little difference between replacement and regular refs

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gtexan02

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Thought this was interesting. Shows how much perception plays into things. And the fact that the worst game was arguably the most watched.

The perception seems to be flags are flying indiscriminately. And yet:

• The average number of penalties per game is down from 15.2 to 14.7.

• On player-safety calls, such as roughing the passer; unnecessary roughness, including hitting defenseless players; and, face-mask or horse-collar violations, the calls are nearly even: 75 this year, 74 last.

• Instant replay reviews are way up, an increase of 16. But the percentage of reversals is way down: 23 this year out of 62 as opposed to 21 of 46 in 2011.

• Defensive pass interference and illegal contact penalties are up, but only from 48 to 51, surprising because of the hubbub raised on the airwaves about the lack of such calls.

Offensive players believe the replacements are concentrating on pass interference penalties against them, not against defensive backs. The numbers: six such calls this season to nine through two weeks last year.

...

Average time of game is about six minutes longer in 2012 than in 2011, and with only one overtime game in the opening two weeks -- same as last year -- extra periods can't be blamed. More likely, the time it takes to properly administrate penalties throughout the game is the cause.
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http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8400480/flags-replacements-regular-refs-same

I think the most interesting thing is that only 20% of replays have been overturned. Which tells me they are getting it right a lot more than the regular refs did...
 
The big difference to me has been with administering the game. They're often not sure what the correct procedural call is, misplace the ball often, enforce the wrong yardage on penalties, and generally take forever to make a decision. That's my beef with it. The biggest blown call, I guess, has been the phantom OPA call on Jacoby Jones that cost the Ravens the game last week, but those happen with the regulars as well. The replacements show a lack of confidence in their decisions, and that makes emotionally charged coaches and players respect them less.
 
I haven't thought they have been doing a bad job at all other than being slow. The regulars are losing their leverage week by week.
 
paycheck71 said:
The big difference to me has been with administering the game. They're often not sure what the correct procedural call is, misplace the ball often, enforce the wrong yardage on penalties, and generally take forever to make a decision. That's my beef with it. The biggest blown call, I guess, has been the phantom OPA call on Jacoby Jones that cost the Ravens the game last week, but those happen with the regulars as well. The replacements show a lack of confidence in their decisions, and that makes emotionally charged coaches and players respect them less.
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Yeah, they talk about this a little in the article. You're right on the money with this:

Game control and simple professionalism by the officials have become key issues this week after complaints from a number of players.

Average time of game is about six minutes longer in 2012 than in 2011, and with only one overtime game in the opening two weeks -- same as last year -- extra periods can't be blamed. More likely, the time it takes to properly administrate penalties throughout the game is the cause.

The league has a supervisor in the press box and an alternate official on the sideline to help in that area. But it's been a struggle.
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All of that comes with time though. If they get the administration and control aspects down, the regular refs will be left with no leverage at all. Every single week the replacements become more and more accustomed to the job
 
paycheck71 said:
The big difference to me has been with administering the game. They're often not sure what the correct procedural call is, misplace the ball often, enforce the wrong yardage on penalties, and generally take forever to make a decision. That's my beef with it. The biggest blown call, I guess, has been the phantom OPA call on Jacoby Jones that cost the Ravens the game last week, but those happen with the regulars as well. The replacements show a lack of confidence in their decisions, and that makes emotionally charged coaches and players respect them less.
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The more time they get on the field the more the game management issues fade and the closer they actually come to performing like the regulars.

As to player and coach respect, the nfl should warn the teams/coaches and then tell the refs to start popping them with penalties and the problem will solve itself
 
2012Champs said:
The more time they get on the field the more the game management issues fade and the closer they actually come to performing like the regulars.

As to player and coach respect, the nfl should warn the teams/coaches and then tell the refs to start popping them with penalties and the problem will solve itself
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Yep. I said the same thing in a different thread. Had I been officiating the Denver game this past Monday, John Fox would have been watching the game from the locker room. The player and coaches are clearly taking advantage of the situation.

The confidence and game control thing falls back on the NFL. They should have been training those guys up back during the summer.
 
The thing I disliked about the regular refs is you could see a flag a mile away, almost before the foul you could feel coming...lol. Doesn't happen (yet) with the newbies.

Also I see no favorites being played, too bad for the NFL darlings *cough* manning *cough*
 
I havent had a problem with penalty calls. Both the regulars and replacements miss or make terrible calls. The problem has been the pacing of the game, ball spotting and misinterpertation of the rules. I forget the exact stats but games are running longer than the average under the regulars. This is due to the ref conferences.
 
I think my issues aren't in 'volume' of flags...its the late flags when the home team's fans get loud or the late flag when a home WR asks for one....the bad ball spots and all the friggin' holding going on that isn't called. Also, the players are starting to cheat more or at least trying to see how much they can get away with. I've seen more pick plays than I care for as well.
 
Vinny said:
I think my issues aren't in 'volume' of flags...its the late flags when the home team's fans get loud or the late flag when a home WR asks for one....the bad ball spots and all the friggin' holding going on that isn't called. Also, the players are starting to cheat more or at least trying to see how much they can get away with. I've seen more pick plays than I care for as well.
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Denver almost came back and won because of a huge pick in the 4th quarter. I think it was on the last TD they scored. The DB got layed out onto his back by a pick. I believe it was right in front of the ref. Havent been able to find a clip of it though.
 
Vinny said:
I think my issues aren't in 'volume' of flags...its the late flags when the home team's fans get loud or the late flag when a home WR asks for one....the bad ball spots and all the friggin' holding going on that isn't called. Also, the players are starting to cheat more or at least trying to see how much they can get away with. I've seen more pick plays than I care for as well.
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Yep, the part that's killing me is all the mugging of WRs going on. I have seen stuff like this since the 70s. If you have small receivers, you're going to have issues.
 
infantrycak said:
I haven't thought they have been doing a bad job at all other than being slow. The regulars are losing their leverage week by week.
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My thoughts exactly. They're learning as they go, NOT their fault the reg refs went on strike. If it takes them a little more time to make sure of a call, then so be it. Maybe they're just trying harder to GET it RIGHT, which is something the reg refs could care less about sometimes.

If anyone truly believes the reg refs don't have fav teams, and don't play FF, they are dreamin!! JMO!!
 
One of the things i hate about the NBA these days is how players, coaches and to a small extent fans influence how the refs call a game with their constant whining and boo-hoo.

Seeing these replacement refs these 1st couple of games gave me that disgusted feeling like i'm watching an NBA game.....& i don't like it 1 bit b/c i LOVE NFL football. I've seen more late flags thrown in 2 weeks than i've seen in like 3 years of watching the NFL.

They're completely overmatched with all the testosterone flowing out there & you can see it....i don't care what the #'s say.
 
You know what, screw it. I love having football season back. These guys that are going out there each week and taking a ton of **** from players, coaches and fans for a temporary job.

For fans that are concerned that 'XYZ' penalty is being called more, I can find a million posts on this board berating the 'regular' refs during past seasons. The majority of calls are opinion matters, and will be argued either way by two partisan groups anyway. A truly superior team overcomes a few poor penalty decisions from an official.

Thank you replacement refs - I hope a few of you turn your stint into a permanent role in the league. I'm so much happier debating a referees call, than discussing CBA details.
 
Mr teX said:
I've seen more late flags thrown in 2 weeks than i've seen in like 3 years of watching the NFL.

....i don't care what the #'s say.
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You can say you don't care what the numbers say, but it doesn't make you right. The average number of flags per game is down. Thats a fact. Its not a manipulation. Its a straight up, countable fact. Its all your perception, and its likely influenced by what you were expecting.

I guarantee you that if the NFL had not told anyone that there were replacement refs, 90+% of fans would have had no idea. But because they did know, they are paying more attention to the refs and the flags and its seeming like its some huge difference.
 
gtexan02 said:
You can say you don't care what the numbers say, but it doesn't make you right. The average number of flags per game is down. Thats a fact. Its not a manipulation. Its a straight up, countable fact. Its all your perception, and its likely influenced by what you were expecting.

I guarantee you that if the NFL had not told anyone that there were replacement refs, 90+% of fans would have had no idea. But because they did know, they are paying more attention to the refs and the flags and its seeming like its some huge difference.
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why does the fact that the number of flags per game being down equate to them doing a good job? If you are getting away with holding or setting an illegal pick that may be a good thing, but not for the guy who's being held of fighting off an illegal pick.
 
Vinny said:
why does the fact that the number of flags per game being down equate to them doing a good job? If you are getting away with holding or setting an illegal pick that may be a good thing, but not for the guy who's being held of fighting off an illegal pick.
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His statement didnt say they were doing a good job. He was responding to someone who said "I dont care what the numbers say Ive seen more flags" if there are actually less flags then you havent seen more. Id also agree with his point but maybe not the 90% number that many people are looking at this harder because they know its not the normal guys, thats simply human nature imo
 
The flags don't bother me so much, it's the game management.

What about when the Seahawks got a 4th timeout in week 1? These new refs are really lucky that the Cardinals ended up winning that game, because that would have sparked outrage.

Also, games seem to be getting out of control. That Atlanta-Denver game was complete chaos. When fighting starts to happen they need to be more proactive breaking that stuff up. As fun as that is to watch, I would rather see the pigskin getting tossed around.
 
TexansLucky13 said:
The flags don't bother me so much, it's the game management.

What about when the Seahawks got a 4th timeout in week 1? These new refs are really lucky that the Cardinals ended up winning that game, because that would have sparked outrage.

Also, games seem to be getting out of control. That Atlanta-Denver game was complete chaos. When fighting starts to happen they need to be more proactive breaking that stuff up. As fun as that is to watch, I would rather see the pigskin getting tossed around.
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The league should empower and encourage the refs to take more control. Throwing some heavy penalties and possible tossing players if the penalties dont work will solve the issue. After that they could start impossing fines to teams as well.
 
Stuff like this is what I'm talking about. For the record, before the season started I had a long telephone discussion with infantry about pick plays (as well as other infractions) and how the non-calls were going to be bigger than the blown calls long run...

While the NFL muzzles coaches and players from complaining about the joke of replacement officials, the truth must come out:

Atlanta cheated Monday to beat Denver in a prime example of how the sport's integrity and the league standings are being compromised by substandard officiating.

With the game's outcome in the balance, Atlanta gained a first down, squelched a furious rally by the Broncos and iced a 27-21 victory with a pass play where the Falcons were obviously guilty of offensive pass interference that went unpunished by inexperienced NFL refs. Commissioner Roger Goodell should cringe with embarrassment if he inspects the third-down play by Atlanta with 2 minutes, 35 seconds remaining and the Falcons on their own 25-yard line.

Atlanta receiver Roddy White committed offensive pass interference against Denver cornerback Champ Bailey on a classic, illegal pick play that resulted in a six-yard catch by Julio Jones, the beneficiary of the Falcons' disregard for the rules in a situation where replacement officials would naturally be hesitant to make a crucial call certain to be unpopular with the home crowd.

Needing five yards to keep the drive alive and avoid punting to give Denver quarterback Peyton Manning a chance at late-game heroics, the Falcons set two illegal picks to free Jones on an underneath route.
With Bailey at the line of scrimmage in press coverage, he gets shoved down the field by White. Before the snap, the Atlanta tight end points at

Broncos safety Mike Adams, lining up a target to clear out even more space for a short, easy throw from quarterback Matt Ryan to Jones.
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Read more: Did Falcons get away with illegal play to extinguish rally by Broncos? - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/lunchspec...urce=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#ixzz27853nVDq
 
that's the difference, it's not the number of calls but the accuracy. a hold is called when there was no foul, followed by an interference that gets missed. the regular ref's would've thrown just one flag as well, but they were more likely to get the two calls correct.

the way things are going, there should be quite a bit more calls being made to keep the games under control.
 
263948_245676665554908_1519506852_n_zps5b1272f8.jpg
 
I'm watching the 49ers-Vikings game right now, and the refs are just fkn awful. They are plainly incapable of counting to 3. They've given the 49ers free challenges and timeouts. That is the sort of thing I can't handle. If there was some subjective difference of opinion on whether the ball was fumbled, or feet out of bounds, etc., I get that. The regular refs screw that stuff up all the time, even if they do it quicker. But these guys just can't seem to get basic rules down.

If this was happening in the Texans game, I'd be totally pissed.
 
I had seen little difference with them until the Raiders v. Steelers game. They let the Steelers score first on an illegal pick play, allowed the DBs to interfere and make illegal contact down field all day, and then didn't throw a flag for the hit that sent Darrius Heyward-Bey to the hospital; though I suspect a major fine will be coming to the Steeler player for leading with his helmet to the chin of a defenseless WR. Even the announcers were saying how the refs shouldn't have this down as fulfilling their bucket-list (having made in to the NFL), and needed to show up and officiate the game.

Here is the illegal hit on DHB:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...f-with-neck-injury?module=HP11_headline_stack
 
as the players and coaches adjust, these refs just keep getting more and more exposed. i thought the texans game was pretty bad, but others around the league are an absolute mess. i dont even want to look at the baltimore - new england game right now, it's a cluster ****.
 
They are going to get someone killed or seriously injured if they can't control the games and keep them clean.
 
It seemed to me like there was an absurd amount of flags today. I don't have numbers but every time I looked at a TV today at the sports bar I was out it seemed like at least one game had a flag marker.

And holding is out of control in the Baltimore-New England game. I don't know if the players think they can get away with it or what but damn.
 
gtexan02 said:
Looks like they are getting worse
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8418497/referees-mistakes-shaky-calls-week-3-themes
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From the article, and pertaining to my post a few hours ago:

Referee Ken Roan said he twice granted 49ers coach Jim Harbaugh video challenges after Harbaugh called timeout in the fourth quarter. Neither challenge should have been allowed once Harbaugh asked for time.

"What I told him was, 'Well you challenged it not knowing what the result of the play was going to be,' " Roan said. "So I granted him the challenge and we went and looked at it. That was wrong. I should not have."

[+] EnlargeReferee
Jeff Gross/Getty ImagesIt was a bad Week 3 for many replacement referees, who continue to draw criticism from players and coaches throughout the league.

Both mistakes happened in the span of six plays in Minnesota's 24-13 upset of the 49ers.

"My interpretation of it was that he could do that based upon the time factors and not knowing it was a challengeable play to begin with when he called timeout," Roan said. "If you don't have a timeout to lose, you can't make a challenge."
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They just don't know the rules. They're mot making judgment call errors - they just don't know the damn rules. It's amateur hour for a product that's worth billions. Ridiculous. And even more ridiculous for the Billionaire's Club that is haggling over a few thousand dollars to let it get to this point.
 
Numbers don't mean anything. Just like how people bring up "equal foul calls" and "free throw numbers" when talking about NBA refs, as if that's supposed to make things better.

It's about quality. It's about missed calls. It's about when they happen in the game. It's pathetic. These replacement refs are a joke, and an embarrassment.
 
eriadoc said:
From the article, and pertaining to my post a few hours ago:

They just don't know the rules. They're mot making judgment call errors - they just don't know the damn rules. It's amateur hour for a product that's worth billions. Ridiculous. And even more ridiculous for the Billionaire's Club that is haggling over a few thousand dollars to let it get to this point.
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That's an important point.
Days or weeks isn't enough time to prepare for this stage.
 
Romo got speared in the head and there was no flag. Not saying I want the "hand touched the helmet, 15 yards!" calls back, but good Lord.
 
2012Champs said:
His statement didnt say they were doing a good job. He was responding to someone who said "I dont care what the numbers say Ive seen more flags" if there are actually less flags then you havent seen more. Id also agree with his point but maybe not the 90% number that many people are looking at this harder because they know its not the normal guys, thats simply human nature imo
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no thats actually not what i meant....i meant i dont care about thenumber of flags...i care about consistency, control and the flow of the game...thats where the replacement refs are failing the most... the number of flags is inconsequential because everyone knows u could call holding/PI on damn near every play.
 
Mr teX said:
no thats actually not what i meant....i meant i dont care about thenumber of flags...i care about consistency, control and the flow of the game...thats where the replacement refs are failing the most... the number of flags is inconsequential because everyone knows u could call holding/PI on damn near every play.
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This is my exact problem. The number of flags being thrown is inconsequential in comparison to consistency in calling fouls. There is none and to me that is the biggest problem that is causing problems for teams.
 
By my count, at least 4 games (Titans/Lions, Ravens/Pats, Steelers/Raiders and Bengals/Redskins) had critical errors made by officials that affected the result of the game. Not saying the fulltime refs would have been perfect, but no way this kind of shenighans goes down.

The integrity of the NFL is getting smacked the longer this goes on. You can see some of the officials confused, out of breath, or flat out shrugging...and i don't blame them - this isn't their dayjob.
 
toronto said:
By my count, at least 4 games (Titans/Lions, Ravens/Pats, Steelers/Raiders and Bengals/Redskins) had critical errors made by officials that affected the result of the game. Not saying the fulltime refs would have been perfect, but no way this kind of shenighans goes down.

The integrity of the NFL is getting smacked the longer this goes on. You can see some of the officials confused, out of breath, or flat out shrugging...and i don't blame them - this isn't their dayjob.
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In the end, the officiating didn't effect the final outcome of the Raider/Steeler game. Sure, the lack of calls against the Steelers for head-hunting (twice by Mundy) gave Darrius Heyward-Bey and Brandon Myers both concussions. And the Raider's LB Wheeler certainly should have been called for diving at Big Ben's legs. Of course, Pittsburgh scored first on an illegal pick play that ended up hurting Michael Huff. And naturally the Steelers should have been called on several plays where their defenders were grabbing and pushing well past the 5-yard cushion. And then there was the chop-block the Raiders should have been called for. However, in the end the outcome wasn't effected by the poor officiating, but some of the players got hurt because the officials weren't enforcing the rules and taking control of the game.

Correction:

Rule 12, Section 2, Article 2 : Chop Block

A Chop Block is a block by the offense in which one offensive player (designated as A1 for purposes of this rule) blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower while another offensive player (A2) engages that same defensive player above the waist.

Legal Chop Blocks
A Chop Block is legal in the following situations on Running Plays.
(a) A1 and A2, both offensive linemen, who are initially aligned adjacent to each another (sic) on the line of scrimmage, may chop a defensive player

Another UPDATE, this time from a Steeler fan:

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/09/raiders-cut-block-on-steelers-de-ziggy-hood-was-legal/
 
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The debate over this is over. The league's credibility is now officically on the line. The end of this game is a complete disgrace.
 
3 million dollars. That's the difference between the NFL and the real refs. What a disgrace. For 3 million dollars I could have won my fantasy football game tonight. Now I'm just a loser with a tie game on my record...

Also this:
3r1nxo.jpg
 
This is the kind of crap the Raiders deal with from the regular officials, but now that it affects the other 31 teams everyone is up in arms. I'm actually getting a pretty good laugh out of this, because when it didn't affect their team everyone was cool with the poor officiating. Now that it is League-wide, people are pissed. Too funny.
 
axman40 said:
The replacement refs still suck!
In todays Cowboy game a ref throw his at a WR who did not go out of bounds but did step and slip on the refs hat!
I guess someone will have to be lost for the season before the lockout will end!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUE3tyOZewc
:kitten:
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That's pretty mild compared to the Ref that hit Orlando brown in the eye with the flag a few years ago and pretty much caused his eye to pop out.

I believe he received a nice sum of money for that incident.
 
For all the problems with the current referees, it seems that many people have somehow forgotten about all of the complaining that there has routinely been, for as long as the NFL has been in existence, with the established referees that are now on strike.
 
Honestly, I like how these officials are calling penalties in regards to hits.

I like that they are letting them play some, but are mostly letting dealing with the blatant stuff. Jj watt had a hit on manning in this last game that was about identical to the hit he had against the colts last year that was flagged for... but no one even batted an eye when he recently did it.

They are a good deal worse that the regular refs though and the fact that guys are able to get good clean hits on qb's now on a regular basis is a good thing IMO.

All the not knowing the rules stuff and just overall not having a great handle on the game is not good...but I still think they'll get better and people will start to get over the minor stuff towards the end of the season barring they don't have many more colossal screw ups...
 
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