Troubling Schaub postgame quotes

[spurstexanstros]

So you would have preferred if Schaub had said "we need to panic?"

I agree...I mean cmon between this thread and the "unspoken messages" thread I am begginning to wonder if some of us fans are reading way too much into things or the battle red koolaid's side effects include the ability to mind read. It is preseason the offense looked decent Schaub was 8-10 for 100+ yards. Shoot my 5 yr old cant hit the toilet with that accuracy.

I think the run game looked good,, scored td in red zone... DA, dreesen , Grahm looked good.

Its preseason....leave the mindreading and second guessing till after the colts game.

 

[thunderkyss]

I myself was not bothered by the final outcome of the game against the Cardinals, because our 1's and 2's looked good. This game, however , was a little different in that many on this board were hoping to use this game as a guage by which to measure our team's growth. It may have been a meaningless game in the standings, but it does show areas of concern. If our team was not playing like it mattered, then I'm concerned about their overall team attitude. If they were doing their collective bests, then we are not as far along as we had hoped to be. Excusing the Texans by saying that New Orleans is after all the champs just says that we are happy to be mediocre and it really doesn't bother us that we can't compete against the big boys. It wasn't a close enough game for us to just say,"well it's just pre-season." and act like were were in it all the way. Our 1's and 2's were beaten and made to look like they didn't belong in the same league with the Saints. I'm sorry, I'm not o.k. with that. I'm not about to jump off and tall buildings, nor do I believe the sky is falling, but it should be a big wake-up call to this team.

I like your post. I understand what you are saying. I just want to remind you, this is the preseason. Winning the game isn't the goal when the team steps on the field. Gary's disappointed how the game turned out, Matt's dissappointed, we're all disappointed.

But I guarantee you had this been a regular season game, things would have played out differently. By both teams, I'm not so naive, to believe the Saints gave us their best.

But this is the preseason, the goal is to get your guys some snaps, and see where you are at. We did that, lost another LB, and a WR... we also found out if Trindon Holliday can't make it, we've got some damn good options.

Even in our worst game of 2009, we stymied what eventually became the #1 rushing attack for 3 Qtrs. We also held the #1 rushing attack at the time to almost nothing. From week 4 on, we were a totally different team than what we saw in the preseason through week 3.

I think the same thing will happen in 2010, except we'll morph in week1.

I know that's a lot of wishing and hoping, But this is the preseason.

 

[datchapin]

About his first quote where he finishes. You saw the sack. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he had plenty of time on that sack didn't he? I mean at least 3 secs. I mean, am I crazy in thinking that sack might have been avoidable by getting rid of the ball quicker?

 

[Norg]

TBH i would be tired 2 back to back road games in pre season yeah its pre season the starters are not going to go all out they just wanna get sweety before the big dance

i think they will play better at home aganist a team they will see in the RG season alla Cowgirls

 

[thunderkyss]

The game doesn't count. The result doesn't count. The missed tackles count. The lack of effort counts. Those things count because they're indicative of the team's mind set and discipline level. The DL getting manhandled counts, because we have no reason to believe they'll suddenly start manhandling the other team's OL once the games start for real.

Indications count.

I agree with this, more or less. However I won't go so far as say there was a lack of effort. It takes effort for those guys to do what they do. That's why they are there, & I'm watching them on TV.


But even in the regular season 2009, I would be surprised if we could come up with one game where our DL manhandled anybody. We played the run as a team, the DL doing their thing, and the LBs doing their thing.

Our LBs were not in attack mode Saturday night, they weren't playing downhill. They were on their heels, waiting for something to happen.

I'm not worried about it, because we weren't playing like we had. I'm sure there was a reason for that.

I don't believe we went into the game planning on winning. At least I hope we didn't. We should have been seeing how this formation looked against that package, how this combo looked in that situation, and things like that.

I sure as hell hope we didn't have a game plan for this game, instead, we should have been working on pieces of our game plan for Sept 12.

If we look like this on opening day, then we've got a problem.

 

[thunderkyss]

Remember how Adrian Peterson ran all over us and all the "it's just pre-season" brigade basically told anyone with a different opnion to STFU? Well, that turned out to be a problem all season huh? But hey, let's keep chalking all that up to "it's just pre-season"? What's that definition of insanity?....

exactly!

Wrong,

We did not have a problem agains the run all season long. We were top ten against the run, including those ridiculous first three games.

& Thomas Jones and Leon Washington had like 6 yards rushing at the end of the third Qtr.

CJ was getting his ass handed to him for most of the game, he just broke off a couple of big runs a few times.

We just needed to find a way to play consistently, and the preseason was a poor barometer of where we were against the run.

 

[thunderkyss]

it's called being willing to take a risk..look at the onside kick in the superbowl coming out of halftime. Taking risks is not something we have seen much from our Texans.

Oh, now Kubiak doesn't take risks?

I think hiring Kid Shanahan was a risk, holding out for Bush was a risk, putting Carr on his back was a risk, and that half-back pass was a risk...

Somethings worked out, somethings didn't, that's the way it goes with risks.

 

[Dwade]

Oh, now Kubiak doesn't take risks?

I think hiring Kid Shanahan was a risk, holding out for Bush was a risk, putting Carr on his back was a risk, and that half-back pass was a risk...

Somethings worked out, somethings didn't, that's the way it goes with risks.

True. Payton is just a much better coach, there is no way around that.

 

[thunderkyss]

I will say this, last year the "it's just pre-season" camp kept bashing in anyones head who said anything as it was "just pre-season".

Remember how Adrian Peterson ran all over us and all the "it's just pre-season" brigade basically told anyone with a different opnion to STFU?

Well, that turned out to be a problem all season huh?

But hey, let's keep chalking all that up to "it's just pre-season"?

What's that definition of insanity?....

Wrong,

We did not have a problem agains the run all season long. We were top ten against the run, including those ridiculous first three games.

& Thomas Jones and Leon Washington had like 6 yards rushing at the end of the third Qtr.

CJ was getting his ass handed to him for most of the game, he just broke off a couple of big runs a few times.

We just needed to find a way to play consistently, and the preseason was a poor barometer of where we were against the run.

To elaborate on what I said earlier. I ran the numbers when I got home, and here is how "bad" we did against the run the first three games, which the consensus believe were our worst.

Jets:
Thomas Jones carried the ball 19 times.
3 were for 0 yards or less (15%)
8 were for 1 yard or less (42%)
15 were for 3 yards or less (79%)

Only 2 carries went for more than 5 yards (38 & 39 yards)

He had a total of 12 yards going into the 4th Qtr.

Leon Washington did have a good game, gaining 60 yards on 15 carries. (56 yards going into the 4th).


Tennessee:
Chris Johnson had 17 carries
7 for 0 or less (41%)
4 plays over 10 yards (57, 16, 11, 91)

Jacksonville:
MJD had 23 carries
6 were for 0 or less (26%)
13 for 3 yards or less (56%)
6 plays of 5+ (26%)
Only 2 went for more than 10 yards, only 1 went for more than 11 yards (61 yards)

We gave up some big plays, but we were playing the run very well, playing on their side of the L.O.S. for much of the games. All we were lacking was consistency, which we picked up as the year went on. This, was after looking very, very bad in the preseason.

So what we saw Saturday, is not indicative of what we will see once the regular season starts. Nothing at all like what we know these guys can do.

What did you think of Demeco, Cushing, or Pollard last night? Did any of those guys look like the guys we saw in the regular season?

I don't think it was a matter of Kubiak not getting them amped up to play, I think it is a matter of it being the preseason.

 

[thunderkyss]

True. Payton is just a much better coach, there is no way around that.

That's one way to look at it.

With less to work with, and in the same amount of time, Kubiak has built an offense that is just as good as the Saints, & Kubiak has built a defense that is better than the Saints.

& we are younger.

We haven't won as many games, but that's coming.

 

[rmartin65]

That's one way to look at it.

With less to work with, and in the same amount of time, Kubiak has built an offense that is just as good as the Saints, & Kubiak has built a defense that is better than the Saints.

& we are younger.

We haven't won as many games, but that's coming.

I like the team enthusiasm, but I am not comfortable saying this yet.

I am not delving into stats here, but I am going to go out on a limb- Payton (&Co.) has assembled a better team than Kubiak (&CO.), in the same amount of time. They won the super bowl. Their offense is better, both through the air and on the ground. Their D forced more turnovers. While the Texans may be on the verge of being better than the Saints, we cannot say that the Texans are better than the Saints.

 

[JB]

I like the team enthusiasm, but I am not comfortable saying this yet.

I am not delving into stats here, but I am going to go out on a limb- Payton (&Co.) has assembled a better team than Kubiak (&CO.), in the same amount of time. They won the super bowl. Their offense is better, both through the air and on the ground. Their D forced more turnovers. While the Texans may be on the verge of being better than the Saints, we cannot say that the Texans are better than the Saints.

Agree with this, but will add the stipulation that Payton had a whole lot more to work with when he arrived.

 

[rmartin65]

Agree with this, but will add the stipulation that Payton had a whole lot more to work with when he arrived.

I grudgingly accept this. These two teams drafted 1st and 2nd in that draft. One just won the Super Bowl, the other is yet to make the play offs.

 

[JB]

I grudgingly accept this. These two teams drafted 1st and 2nd in that draft. One just won the Super Bowl, the other is yet to make the play offs.

Yep. But the Saints had a huge qb problem, (as did we), but a lot of injuries led to their dismal 2005 season. Health and a few additions put them over the top. he Texans were a healthy team in 2005, but not a good one.

 

[infantrycak]

Yep. But the Saints had a huge qb problem, (as did we), but a lot of injuries led to their dismal 2005 season. Health and a few additions put them over the top. he Texans were a healthy team in 2005, but not a good one.

They were a team pulling consistent 8-8, 9-7 seasons and then Katrina hit as well so they had to play everything as an away game while trying to rebuild lives. Yes they had the 2nd pick but that was a fluke.

 

[JB]

They were a team pulling consistent 8-8, 9-7 seasons and then Katrina hit as well so they had to play everything as an away game while trying to rebuild lives. Yes they had the 2nd pick but that was a fluke.

Yes, they were a much better team than that season showed.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Are we honestly rationalizing New Orleans' ascending the NFL ladder faster than the Texans and using Katrina as an excuse on why NewOrleans has turned things around faster?

Saints turned it around because they made better decisions on the field, in the draft war room, and in targeting and acquiring outside talent via FA and trades

it's that simple
both teams stunk and one team pulled out of it
stop making excuses for Kubiak and their inability to finish

 

[JB]

Are we honestly rationalizing New Orleans' ascending the NFL ladder faster than the Texans and using Katrina as an excuse on why NewOrleans has turned things around faster?

Saints turned it around because they made better decisions on the field, in the draft war room, and in targeting and acquiring outside talent via FA and trades

it's that simple
both teams stunk and one team pulled out of it
stop making excuses for Kubiak and their inability to finish

Dude, go back and look at the 2005 Saints roster and compare it to the 2005 Texans. Pull off your hate colored glasses and take a look at reality.

 

[Lucky]

Yep. But the Saints had a huge qb problem, (as did we), but a lot of injuries led to their dismal 2005 season. Health and a few additions put them over the top.

The Saints have only one starter (Will Smith) who started for the team in 2005. Just as the Texans only have one starter (Andre Johnson) who started for the team in 2005.

Both teams have been almost totally remade since 2005. One team just has had more success.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

The Saints have had massive turnover since 3-13
they were a bad football team and turned it around

we were in similar situations
they were just more aggressive and much much more effective
and they won a super bowl and went to two NFC championship games
while we are rewarding losing records

it's that simple... Stop acting the 05 Saints were the 85 Bears talent-wise

 

[thunderkyss]

I like the team enthusiasm, but I am not comfortable saying this yet.

I am not delving into stats here, but I am going to go out on a limb- Payton (&Co.) has assembled a better team than Kubiak (&CO.), in the same amount of time. They won the super bowl. Their offense is better, both through the air and on the ground. Their D forced more turnovers. While the Texans may be on the verge of being better than the Saints, we cannot say that the Texans are better than the Saints.

I didn't say the Texans are a better team. I said our offense is just as good, and our defense is better. Both statements are true.

 

[JB]

The Saints have only one starter (Will Smith) who started for the team in 2005. Just as the Texans only have one starter (Andre Johnson) who started for the team in 2005.

Both teams have been almost totally remade since 2005. One team just has had more success.

And how does their depth figure into it? How many bench players in 2005 are still with the Saints? How many with the Texans?

 

[thunderkyss]

Are we honestly rationalizing New Orleans' ascending the NFL ladder faster than the Texans and using Katrina as an excuse on why NewOrleans has turned things around faster?

Saints turned it around because they made better decisions on the field, in the draft war room, and in targeting and acquiring outside talent via FA and trades

it's that simple
both teams stunk and one team pulled out of it
stop making excuses for Kubiak and their inability to finish

Which draft decision was better?
Their 1st round pick in 2006? Reggie over Mario?

Their 2nd round pick in 2006? Harper over Demeco?

Their 3rd round pick in 2006? None vs Eric Winston?

Their 4th round pick in 2006? Jahri Evans over Owen Daniels?

Their 5th round pick in 2006? Rob Ninchovich vs none?

Their 6th round pick in 2006? Haas or Lay vs Wali Lundy?

Their 7th round pick in 2006? Strief/Colston vs David Anderson?



& Which FA would you rather we have picked up? Sharper over Pollard?

c'mon.

 

[rmartin65]

I didn't say the Texans are a better team. I said our offense is just as good, and our defense is better. Both statements are true.

I'm sorry, I dont understand. If our offenses were equal, then that side of the ball are equal. If our D is better, then our team is better. Unless you think their special teams are that much better than the Texans?

 

[thunderkyss]

I'm sorry, I dont understand. If our offenses were equal, then that side of the ball are equal. If our D is better, then our team is better. Unless you think their special teams are that much better than the Texans?

THere are other things that go into a team. Chemistry, Maturity, Leadership, Coaching...

 

[Dwade]

I didn't say the Texans are a better team. I said our offense is just as good, and our defense is better. Both statements are true.

Nope on the offense. We weren't even top 10 in scoring last year, Saints were 1st. While we did have a ton of yards, we didn't turn them into points like the Saints did.

Defense - This is close, but the Saints cause a ton of turnovers that help them win games.

I don't like the Saints, but it's the truth.

 

[TEXANRED]

"We suck again!"

Again?

 

[rmartin65]

THere are other things that go into a team. Chemistry, Maturity, Leadership, Coaching...

Why arent you counting those on each side of the ball? I am. Brees is a great leader, in my opinion better than anyone the Texans have. I think their OL works together better than the Texans'. The things you listed are part of the game, and should be added when thinking who is better than who.

All this said, I think the Texans have a good shot at the playoffs, despite the tough schedule.

 

[thunderkyss]

Nope on the offense. We weren't even top 10 in scoring last year, Saints were 1st. While we did have a ton of yards, we didn't turn them into points like the Saints did.

Defense - This is close, but the Saints cause a ton of turnovers that help them win games.

I don't like the Saints, but it's the truth.

We were top 10 in scoring.

 

[thunderkyss]

Why arent you counting those on each side of the ball? I am. Brees is a great leader, in my opinion better than anyone the Texans have. I think their OL works together better than the Texans'. The things you listed are part of the game, and should be added when thinking who is better than who.

All this said, I think the Texans have a good shot at the playoffs, despite the tough schedule.

I'm agreeing with you on everything here. They have those things on both sides of the ball, we don't.

That's why I'm saying they have a better team.

Parts of our team, is as good if not better than parts of their team. As a unit, they got us beat.

 

[Dwade]

We were top 10 in scoring.

Actually we were 10. I thought we were 11 or 12, but it's very close.

Source - http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...sonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Still, the Saints scored 7 more points a game than us. That is unacceptable being that we had the 4th most yards per game.

Source - http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...sonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

 

[JB]

Actually we were 10. I thought we were 11 or 12, but it's very close.

Source - http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...sonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Still, the Saints scored 7 more points a game than us. That is unacceptable being that we had the 4th most yards per game.

Source - http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...sonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

If it's unacceptable, don't watch!

 

[thunderkyss]

Actually we were 10. I thought we were 11 or 12, but it's very close.

Source - http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...sonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Still, the Saints scored 7 more points a game than us. That is unacceptable being that we had the 4th most yards per game.

Source - http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...sonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Well you were right about that, let me pull some other meaningless stat out my ass to argue a point I'm absolutely wrong about.



AT least that's what it sounds like you said.

 

[Mr teX]

we were a top 10 team with absolutely no run game & play in a division with a perennially great team in the colts that we have to play twice a year...that's huge considering that they pretty much beat everyone in the league & the saints have a bunch of garbage in division effectively giving them a free run to the division title for the last 3-4 years as there's no one there any good to challenge them.

Not saying they aren't a great team b/c they are, but lets not act like these aren't things that have factored into Payton's ability to turn that franchise around & bring success, especially if we're going to say that Katrina esentially ruined their 2005 season.

 

[RazorOye]

This again? Bush improved the Texans D far more than Williams did the Saints D.

just curious what you're basing this on? I don't know much about stats - and if it's based on that, then okay.

But the change that Williams had on the defense cannot be understated. This is a guy whose attitude had impact on offense.

During one of the plays of the year - the Robert Meachem strip and return for a TD which was instrumental in giving us a chance to come back vs the Skins - Meachem credited Williams for the mentality that drove him to make the play.

He said he knew that he was now the defender and he could hear Williams voice in his head after hearing it so often during drills - STRIP STRIP STRIP. So that's what he did - he saw Williams players during practice going after the ball - trying to create turnovers, manufacture luck.

The overall intensity and attitude of the defense was completely changed.

Prior to Williams, Gibbs preached a reach and react system that many of our defensive players apparently expressed some frustration in that scheme. The scheme never changed. It was very vanilla. Scheme was simple. Looks were basic. Little to no pre snap movement. Not nearly the emphasis on working for turnovers. Pace. Intensity. Attitude. Accountability.

Williams had an impact on all of that.

Now - did that make us a better defense statistically? Well, it's complicated.

We gave up a lot of yards in the air.

But we were also decimated at CB - both our top corners lost significant time.

And our CBs are the best unit on the defensive side of the ball. I'd rank Porter and Greer as one of the top tandems in the NFL, but we were pulling guys off the street to play in meaningful games (Chris McAlister, Mike McKenzie) and their absence really showed how limited Sharper could be in coverage.

When Williams came in, he looked at the personnel and worked with what he had - to maximize their talent and try and compensate for our shortcomings. Something Gibbs never did.

And he would alter his game plan according to who was healthy and who we were facing.

If you start looking at two columns and comparing, there's probably an argument there.

But looking at the success the Saints had in terms of pressuring the QB, confusing the QB with different looks, consistent intensity, and working hard to produce turnovers - especially in the playoffs - were a reflection of Williams and was a stark contrast to what we saw under Gibbs.

"far more"?

I dunno... that's pretty high praise.

 

[RazorOye]

the saints have a bunch of garbage in division effectively giving them a free run to the division title for the last 3-4 years as there's no one there any good to challenge them.

a bunch of garbage teams? TB is pretty rough - but the rest were .500 or better. 4 conferences could say that last year. And for half the season, teams were beating up on Tennessee.

I'm not going to make the case that the NFC South is a stronger conference than the AFC South - because I don't think that's the case.

But to say that our division is "garbage" is, I think, off the mark. I don't think there's a huge gap between Indy/Houston/Tenn and NO/Atl/Carolina that you can say that the latter is "garbage"

Many pundits don't even have the Saints repeating as division champs this year - picking Atlanta to take the title. Atlanta is a fashionable pick.

Depending on the play of Matt Moore, there are 3 teams in the division that I think could make the playoffs and not surprise me doing so.

And we haven't had a free run at the division title the last 4 years. Tampa Bay and Carolina each took the division once in the last 4 years while Atlanta secured a playoff berth with an 11-5 record in one of those years.

 

[Mr teX]

just curious what you're basing this on? I don't know much about stats - and if it's based on that, then okay.

But the change that Williams had on the defense cannot be understated. This is a guy whose attitude had impact on offense.

During one of the plays of the year - the Robert Meachem strip and return for a TD which was instrumental in giving us a chance to come back vs the Skins - Meachem credited Williams for the mentality that drove him to make the play.

He said he knew that he was now the defender and he could hear Williams voice in his head after hearing it so often during drills - STRIP STRIP STRIP. So that's what he did - he saw Williams players during practice going after the ball - trying to create turnovers, manufacture luck.

The overall intensity and attitude of the defense was completely changed.

Prior to Williams, Gibbs preached a reach and react system that many of our defensive players apparently expressed some frustration in that scheme. The scheme never changed. It was very vanilla. Scheme was simple. Looks were basic. Little to no pre snap movement. Not nearly the emphasis on working for turnovers. Pace. Intensity. Attitude. Accountability.

Williams had an impact on all of that.

Now - did that make us a better defense statistically? Well, it's complicated.

We gave up a lot of yards in the air.

But we were also decimated at CB - both our top corners lost significant time.

And our CBs are the best unit on the defensive side of the ball. I'd rank Porter and Greer as one of the top tandems in the NFL, but we were pulling guys off the street to play in meaningful games (Chris McAlister, Mike McKenzie) and their absence really showed how limited Sharper could be in coverage.

When Williams came in, he looked at the personnel and worked with what he had - to maximize their talent and try and compensate for our shortcomings. Something Gibbs never did.

And he would alter his game plan according to who was healthy and who we were facing.

If you start looking at two columns and comparing, there's probably an argument there.

But looking at the success the Saints had in terms of pressuring the QB, confusing the QB with different looks, consistent intensity, and working hard to produce turnovers - especially in the playoffs - were a reflection of Williams and was a stark contrast to what we saw under Gibbs.

"far more"?

I dunno... that's pretty high praise.

I'm sure that he was probably refering to "statistically" but a case can also be made that you guys played so loose & un-afraid to gamble a bit more on defense b/c you had an awesome offense to lean on. We've faced Gregg Williams' defenses before when he was @ jacksonville & a few other places & they weren't nearly as opportunistic as they were last year....

 

[thunderkyss]

Not saying they aren't a great team b/c they are, but lets not act like these aren't things that have factored into Payton's ability to turn that franchise around & bring success, especially if we're going to say that Katrina esentially ruined their 2005 season.

Jim Haslette turned that pathetic franchise into a respectable franchise.

Payton took that mediocre team, and made it great.

Kubiak took a pathetic franchise, and made them respectable.

 

[thunderkyss]

"far more"?

I dunno... that's pretty high praise.

How about "Far more" tangible ways?

 

[RazorOye]

I'm sure that he was probably refering to "statistically" but a case can also be made that you guys played so loose & un-afraid to gamble a bit more on defense b/c you had an awesome offense to lean on.

if it's statistically related - that's fine. I don't mind conceding in the face of numbers. And I lack the time and inclination to start crunching numbers - so I'm cool with that.

I just happen to think that there's an unquantifiable aspect when you're talking about "improving a defense" that might not be reflected in total net yards and such.

The difference in attitude was stark. Some of the same players didn't look like the same players. More intensity. More movement. Different looks. Etc

As far as the case you make - I totally agree. I think they did play a bit looser and un-afraid and willing to gamble.

In fact, I'd subsume all of that under "attitudinal change" which reinforces the contrast between the defense under Gibbs and the defense under Williams.

So I agree with you - and would consider it part of my argument.

 

[RazorOye]

How about "Far more" tangible ways?

I don't mean to get all semantic - but what do you mean "tangible"?

The legal hit on Warner in the playoff game was "tangible"

The pressure on Warner was "tangible"

The Robert Meachem Meach-Around play was "tangible"

The physicality vs. Favre was "tangible" (a little too tangible on a couple of plays, I concede)

The created turnovers by the Saints defense vs. the Vikes was "tangible"

The Porter pick 6 was "tangible"

The switch in game plan vs. Manning in the Super Bowl was "tangible"

these plays all instrumental and all had tangible results. And all looked very different from the defensive schemes and attitudes and priorities under Gibbs

Now, they aren't reflected in total yards allowed and other such categories, but I'm not sure that makes them less tangible, less clear in their impact

if by tangible you mean stats - some of the Saints stats were pretty rough last year I admit haha

 

[Mr teX]

a bunch of garbage teams? TB is pretty rough - but the rest were .500 or better. 4 conferences could say that last year. And for half the season, teams were beating up on Tennessee.

I'm not going to make the case that the NFC South is a stronger conference than the AFC South - because I don't think that's the case.

But to say that our division is "garbage" is, I think, off the mark. I don't think there's a huge gap between Indy/Houston/Tenn and NO/Atl/Carolina that you can say that the latter is "garbage"

Many pundits don't even have the Saints repeating as division champs this year - picking Atlanta to take the title. Atlanta is a fashionable pick.

Depending on the play of Matt Moore, there are 3 teams in the division that I think could make the playoffs and not surprise me doing so.

And we haven't had a free run at the division title the last 4 years. Tampa Bay and Carolina each took the division once in the last 4 years while Atlanta secured a playoff berth with an 11-5 record in one of those years.

noone seriously expected TB & ATL to compete for anything when they won the division in between the times you guys won it. Carolina is the only other, but even with them there was very little belief that they would come out of the NFC. i do know however that you guys rarely have had a team that a good portion of league pundits expect to be superbowl contenders EVERY year like what we have to deal with with manning and the colts EVERY year.

maybe garbage was too strong a word....

 

[Dwade]

we were a top 10 team with absolutely no run game & play in a division with a perennially great team in the colts that we have to play twice a year...that's huge considering that they pretty much beat everyone in the league & the saints have a bunch of garbage in division effectively giving them a free run to the division title for the last 3-4 years as there's no one there any good to challenge them.

Not saying they aren't a great team b/c they are, but lets not act like these aren't things that have factored into Payton's ability to turn that franchise around & bring success, especially if we're going to say that Katrina esentially ruined their 2005 season.

The problem last year was the 2 losses to Jacksonville. That killed us.

 

[Mr teX]

The problem last year was the 2 losses to Jacksonville. That killed us.

Yeah, The problem with this team is not being able to beat teams that on paper are better than us...but beating those teams that we should beat. Last year, it was the jags games.

 

[RazorOye]

noone seriously expected TB & ATL to compete for anything when they won the division in between the times you guys won it.

as a Saints fan, I wholeheartedly endorse the default low-expectations for that franchise from Atlanta

(but they didn't win it - they went 11-5 the year the Panthers went 12-4... let's hope this isn't their year either :wink: )

 

[Dwade]

Yeah, The problem with this team is not being able to beat teams that on paper are better than us...but beating those teams that we should beat. Last year, it was the jags games.

Yup. We should have won both, but even 1 game would have got us a playoff spot.

But you can't keep looking at the past...this team needs to man up and win the games it should with its talent.

 

[Wolf]

one thing that helps is when you have an offense that can light it up for 30 points a game.. It makes the opponents offense become one dimensional when they get behind early.


well caption obvious here LOL

 

[Lucky]

And how does their depth figure into it? How many bench players in 2005 are still with the Saints? How many with the Texans?

Dude, go back and look at the 2005 Saints roster and compare it to the 2005 Texans. Pull off your hate colored glasses and take a look at reality.

You suggested to go back to the 2005 Saints roster, right? I thought you would know how many of those players were still with the team.

Will Smith - DE
Jon Stinchcomb - RT
Devery Henderson - WR

Three solid players. Now, would you trade all 3 for one Andre Johnson? I wouldn't, either. So, you can't say that Payton walked into a stacked deck and Kubiak had bare bones. They both have done a tremendous job of rebuilding their respective rosters. Payton has done the better job of coaching. That's really indisputable.

 

[JB]

You suggested to go back to the 2005 Saints roster, right? I thought you would know how many of those players were still with the team.

Will Smith - DE
Jon Stinchcomb - RT
Devery Henderson - WR

Three solid players. Now, would you trade all 3 for one Andre Johnson? I wouldn't, either. So, you can't say that Payton walked into a stacked deck and Kubiak had bare bones. They both have done a tremendous job of rebuilding their respective rosters. Payton has done the better job of coaching. That's really indisputable.

I can agree with the bolded

 

[The1ApplePie]

Seriously?

Kubes cannot carry Payton's jock at this time.

Payton was built a team that respects him. One that actually buys into him and goes along with it.

Payton learned things from Parcells and established himself as an individual

Kubes seems to still be riding Shanahan/Elway's coat tails