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Are Amobi Okoye and Travis Johnson Busts?

T

Texanballer

Noob
Amobi Okoye
54 total tackles, 6.5 sacks, 2 forces fumbles in his first two seasons.

Travis Johnson
106 total tackles, 2 sacks, 1 int, and one forced fumble in 4 seasons.

What do you all think?

I think Johnson is, but Okoye i will give him 2 more seasons to grow before labeling him a bust, he is the youngest player in the NFL i believe, or at least one of the youngest.

It is frustrating because IMO we need a speed pass rushed and a guy to clog up the holes on defense, but we cant keep drafting D line man in the first round and hope we land another Mario Williams type player.
 
Considering Marios size and combine results...we wont see another like him for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME.

6'7 291

Bench reps of 225: 35

Vertical Jump: +/- 40 in

40: 4.66
 
If they were third round picks they might be, but since they are first rounders, no. They are just developmental players that the Texans have the opportunity to pay miillions of dollars to.

The league needs to take control of rookie contracts.
 
I have justified hope in young Okoye, but I'm ready to part ways with TJ. I wish him well, but he's just not what we want him to be.
 
Considering that Amobi showed flashes of greatness in his rookie season until he hit the wall, and that he's been hampered by a high ankle sprain during the second season, to declare him a bust already would be like declaring Mario a bust during his rookie season.

(Some of you did that, ya know, and you know who you are. :heh:)

As for Travis Johnson, either he agrees to restructure, or cut bait.
 
Until I see a coaching staff that actually understands how to use people's best abilities to their advantage, I'm not ready to label anyone a bust. Both of these guys are not being used correctly. As soon as we get a real DC who understands this and maximizes their God given talent, I say it's premature.
 
Marcus said:
Considering that Amobi showed flashes of greatness in his rookie season until he hit the wall, and that he's been hampered by a high ankle sprain during the second season, to declare him a bust already would be like declaring Mario a bust during his rookie season.

(Some of you did that, ya know, and you know who you are. :heh:)

As for Travis Johnson, either he agrees to restructure, or cut bait.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this. You have to factor in Amobi's age and that he's demonstrated some ability at times. He's got a little more time to show up before you start seriously worrying about him being a bust. It's ok to have an "uneasy feeling" right now but it's too soon to be certain that he'll not work out.

Travis just disgusts me beyond belief. I can't even objectively comment on him because all I see is the player he could be. Arguably had we not gone on a Matt Millen-like DL "binge" and instead drafted linebackers in 2005 and 2007 we could be looking at Derrick Johnson, DeMeco Ryans, and Patrick Willis. Sure you gotta figure out who plays where but I look at that and just shake my head. We wouldn't have Travis Johnson (Oh no, what would we ever do without that fat worthless sack of crap standing around the line of scrimmage?) and we wouldn't have Amobi who "might" become something special.

Pitiful. TJ you can replace with any street free agent and not see a drop in play. Amobi we're going to have to wait 3 years to get a true result out of.
 
Neither are "busts".

Travis Johnson is a solid NFL DT. He isn't a star, and wasn't a first round talent, but he is a solid player. He got drafted into a fan base angry about passing of Derrick Johnson and into a scheme that he didn't fit (we ran an attempt at a 3-4 at the time). He is more of an UT, but struggles to get to the QB. He is a border-line NFL starter.

Amobi Okoye is still just a kid. He was a big project, and he needs to develop more. He has a ton of talent. I would like to see him drop a few pounds honestly and focus on being quicker off the line. It seems that he is a little slower this year.

I think both players are hindered by playing next to each other. Both are right around 300 but are finesse players. Essentially, the coaching staff needs to pick one guy and develop him properly. I think that the player they chose to keep would be best suited next to a more traditional NT.

When it comes down to it, I would keep Amobi and either re-negoiate with Travis to a reserve pay or trade him for a second day pick like a 3rd or 4th rounder.
 
I am not a fan of TJ but I think Amobi will be ok, he may not ever justify where he was picked but he can be an above average player. He is still young and has been asked to play oin a scheme that does not fit his skii set. He is under sized with good speed and should be shooting intot he back field instead of reading and reacting. Once those big linemen get ahold of him he just does not seem to have the skills to get loose and pursue. Also when e is next to TJ they are both a waste, both TJ and Amobi play better when they are next to other tackles instead of each other. I am confident that with a healthy ankle and another years under his belt (22 years old?) and a chnage at DC he will have a good year in 09. At least I am hoping thats the case.
 
Htownsportsfan said:
I am not a fan of TJ but I think Amobi will be ok, he may not ever justify where he was picked but he can be an above average player. He is still young and has been asked to play oin a scheme that does not fit his skii set. He is under sized with good speed and should be shooting intot he back field instead of reading and reacting. Once those big linemen get ahold of him he just does not seem to have the skills to get loose and pursue. Also when e is next to TJ they are both a waste, both TJ and Amobi play better when they are next to other tackles instead of each other. I am confident that with a healthy ankle and another years under his belt (22 years old?) and a chnage at DC he will have a good year in 09. At least I am hoping thats the case.
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I may be in the minority but I still believe Amobi can become a star. He has had the ankle problems, is young, and is being asked to be a run stuff. Amobi is a finesse, pass rushing specialist. Get a big run stuffing beast to pair with Amobi, and I can definitely see him becoming a force in the league.
 
Ckw5814 said:
I may be in the minority but I still believe Amobi can become a star. He has had the ankle problems, is young, and is being asked to be a run stuff. Amobi is a finesse, pass rushing specialist. Get a big run stuffing beast to pair with Amobi, and I can definitely see him becoming a force in the league.
Click to expand...

I agree that I think he can be very good and it's hardly time to give up on him. That being said, even as a pass rusher, both Cochran and Bulman are better than he as situational rushers at DT.

I really hope Cochran comes back healthy. Cochran, Bulman, and Robinson are the three best Dlmen, other than Mario, that we've had on this team since GWalker and SPayne in 2002 and 2003.
 
dalemurphy said:
I agree that I think he can be very good and it's hardly time to give up on him. That being said, even as a pass rusher, both Cochran and Bulman are better than he as situational rushers at DT.
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Look, I really like Cochran and Bulman, but how can you say that after Amobi's first few games in the leage? The guy dominated!

Sophomore slump and an ankle injury. I truly believe we will see many more moments like in the Raiders game when he got the sack fumble.
 
Ckw5814 said:
Look, I really like Cochran and Bulman, but how can you say that after Amobi's first few games in the leage? The guy dominated!

Sophomore slump and an ankle injury. I truly believe we will see many more moments like in the Raiders game when he got the sack fumble.
Click to expand...

He made some plays early last year. But, he never dominated. Bulman has 5 sacks this year also but he never dominated. Besides that, before Cochran's injury, they started lining him up at DT next to Mario on passing downs and Cochran looked great!

I've been criticized plenty on this board defending Amobi. I think he needs 10 lbs of muscle and some growth with his technique. Other than that, he could use a monster DT next to him. Sure. But, Bulman, Cochran, and Robinson are also young guys on the smaller side and playing without a good NT next to them as well. So, no reason to think they won't get better either.
 
dalemurphy said:
He made some plays early last year. But, he never dominated. Bulman has 5 sacks this year also but he never dominated. Besides that, before Cochran's injury, they started lining him up at DT next to Mario on passing downs and Cochran looked great!

I've been criticized plenty on this board defending Amobi. I think he needs 10 lbs of muscle and some growth with his technique. Other than that, he could use a monster DT next to him. Sure. But, Bulman, Cochran, and Robinson are also young guys on the smaller side and playing without a good NT next to them as well. So, no reason to think they won't get better either.
Click to expand...

Good points man. 4 sacks in 4 games as a rookie is pretty dominating though.

Regardless, I am all for it if Cochran turns into a great player.

It's weird though. I am looking at Amobi's game by game stats from last year, and he was great before the bye week. After that, he did next to nothing and still hasn't recovered. What could have happened? I mean the guy was averaging almost a sack a game and like 3 solo tackles a game. After that, he was lucky to get 1 tackle and had .5 sack.
 
TJ? Absolutely. Him being drafted at that position is just so idiotic its unbelievable

Amobi? Too early to tell. Obviously there were several players taken after him that are far better (Revis, Willis, Beason)
 
Hervoyel said:
I completely agree with this. You have to factor in Amobi's age and that he's demonstrated some ability at times. He's got a little more time to show up before you start seriously worrying about him being a bust. It's ok to have an "uneasy feeling" right now but it's too soon to be certain that he'll not work out.

Travis just disgusts me beyond belief. I can't even objectively comment on him because all I see is the player he could be. Arguably had we not gone on a Matt Millen-like DL "binge" and instead drafted linebackers in 2005 and 2007 we could be looking at Derrick Johnson, DeMeco Ryans, and Patrick Willis. Sure you gotta figure out who plays where but I look at that and just shake my head. We wouldn't have Travis Johnson (Oh no, what would we ever do without that fat worthless sack of crap standing around the line of scrimmage?) and we wouldn't have Amobi who "might" become something special.
Pitiful. TJ you can replace with any street free agent and not see a drop in play. Amobi we're going to have to wait 3 years to get a true result out of.
Click to expand...

you forgot eric winston
 
TJ is a spot starter, and valuable member of the DT rotation. He's a bust for where he was drafted, but that ceases to matter the second his rookie contract is signed. He's never going to be what everyone hoped, but he will contribute to the team for a long time.

Okoye is anything but a bust. He has put alot of preasure on QBs this season, but been just 1 step too slow to get the sack. I think it's because of the extra weight he's carrying this season, and the ankle injury. I'd like to see the Texans pick up a big nasty NT and let AO play around 295, so he can regain that step. He would do even better if they put him in a scheme that let's him play to his strengths.
 
Goatcheese said:
Okoye is anything but a bust. He has put alot of preasure on QBs this season, but been just 1 step too slow to get the sack. I think it's because of the extra weight he's carrying this season, and the ankle injury. I'd like to see the Texans pick up a big nasty NT and let AO play around 295, so he can regain that step. He would do even better if they put him in a scheme that let's him play to his strengths.
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Took the words right out of my fingers. Rep!
 
Amobi's really inconsistent, but he's shown he can be a really good pass rushing DT. He hasn't impressed me much in the running game though, he's the one I see neutralized or pushed back the most
 
Maddict5 said:
you forgot eric winston
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Fair enough. We would be without the services of Eric Winston and granted he's a capable RT but he's not impossible to replace. I'd forgo having Winston here if we were sporting a Derrick Johnson, DeMeco Ryans, Patrick Willis LB corps. I'd make that deal in a heartbeat.

Besides, Alex Gibbs can crap a starting NFL RT on demand. Give him a few days advance notice so he can adjust his diet and he'll make a Pro Bowler.
 
Man Amobi is a beast and TJ is solid at best but I think that it's the scheme that we are using on defense and we don't have a clue of what we are doing so i'm not sure if they are busts I am leaning towards the coaching and the scheme that we are using.
 
They can let TJ walk for all I care. AO has some upside to him. I wonder how he would do as LDE and just straight up rushing the passer. He's supposed to be very quick.
 
I like most fans on here, believe we need that big run stuffing NT. Not only would that help the rest of the DL by freeing them up and putting pressure on the QB, but it would help our LB's in run support- they would be able to roam a little more. All this would help our secondary with the added pass rush and the lb's being able to play the pass slightly more, the middle of the field would be covered more.

My question is where should Amobi and this newly found stud NT line up? Where should Mario line up?

MW--AO--NT--pass rush DE

MW--NT--AO--pass rush DE

or should Mario line up on the QB's blindside? Amobi LDT or RDT or on whatever side Mario is on... or the opposite side?

And my opinion on the question: Neither are busts, imo. TJ got drafted way too high so you could argue that but I think he'd be a decent starter with a NT. I think he's more of a backup and being paid too much. He's scheduled to make $1 million (salary) in 2009. He's got $7.7 million in guaranteed money over 5 years. 2010 and 2011 are voidable years and becomes a free agent in 2012. Next year will be very telling with what the staff wants to do with TJ. I suspect he hasn't reached specified performance levels unless they are strictly % of plays he's played. We'll see if his playing time goes down next year if Amobi starts and we have a NT to replace TJ. In that case a restructure is likely to happen or he may get cut. In that case his unamortized signing bonus will be felt next year... another side effect from the last era of GMship.

Amobi is still so young, is still developing and needs a plugger next to him. He's a pass rusher. He was a project player when he was drafted and was coming into the league as a raw prospect. His upside was why he was rated so high and this staff isn't going to quit on him anytime soon. If he develops into his potential our DL will be great. It will be hard for him to get to that without more help.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
My question is where should Amobi and this newly found stud NT line up? Where should Mario line up?

MW--AO--NT--pass rush DE

MW--NT--AO--pass rush DE

or should Mario line up on the QB's blindside? Amobi LDT or RDT or on whatever side Mario is on... or the opposite side?
Click to expand...

They could use different sets depending on down and distance.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
My question is where should Amobi and this newly found stud NT line up? Where should Mario line up?

MW--AO--NT--pass rush DE

MW--NT--AO--pass rush DE

or should Mario line up on the QB's blindside? Amobi LDT or RDT or on whatever side Mario is on... or the opposite side?
Click to expand...

I would keep Mario on the weak side, and avoid isolating a smaller pass rushing DE. Your NT would line up on his side to fill the gap.

Like so:


----MW---NT---AO--DE
-------------0
-----LT-LG-OC-RG-RT

In this setup the NT takes on the LG and OC, so MW has Iso on the LT, AO has the RG, and the LDE has the RT.

A big NT that demands double teams probably helps Okoye most. With the OC and LG on the NT, Amobi is free to try and shoot the gap inside the RG.
 
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BattleRedToro said:
They could use different sets depending on down and distance.
Click to expand...
Good point.
Goatcheese said:
I would keep Mario on the weak side, and avoid isolating a smaller pass rushing DE. Your NT would line up on his side to fill the gap.

Like so:


----MW---NT---AO--DE
-------------0
-----LT-LG-OC-RG-RT

In this setup the NT takes on the LG and OC, so MW has Iso on the LT, AO has the RG, and the LDE has the RT.

A big NT that demands double teams probably helps Okoye most. With the OC and LG on the NT, Amobi is free to try and shoot the gap inside the RG.
Click to expand...

That's what I initially thought but Mario seems to be a great all around DE (pass and run). I wonder if we get a good pass rusher, if he goes over the LT and Mario over RT. I do think they'll probably continue to move the DL around a lot and not have one set structure. I too think Amobi well benifit most if we can get a good NT next to him.
 
Goatcheese said:
I would keep Mario on the weak side, and avoid isolating a smaller pass rushing DE. Your NT would line up on his side to fill the gap.

Like so:


----MW---NT---AO--DE
-------------0
-----LT-LG-OC-RG-RT

In this setup the NT takes on the LG and OC, so MW has Iso on the LT, AO has the RG, and the LDE has the RT.

A big NT that demands double teams probably helps Okoye most. With the OC and LG on the NT, Amobi is free to try and shoot the gap inside the RG.
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The alignment you described is a 4-3 Over. They could also lineup in a 4-3 Under. This would be more likely on long yardage downs when the opposing offense is more likely to pass.

Here is an image of what that could look like against a 3 receiver, single back, single tight end set, refered to here as Double.

Slide4UndervsDouble.jpg
 
YoungTexanFan said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUE3Ys-qf6M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMy2x7yY2q8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjipvJ1qNpw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCdVEfoBEo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxAb1NPDbTM

Yep.
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1.) He has to declare first, which of course he's saying he won't do right now

2.) I think he's going in the top 10 when he gets picked. We would have to hope that he shows up to the combine that big and a lot of people shy away from him due to weight.

I do like him though and if he did fall I wouldn't care at all if we picked another defensive lineman.
 
Because of our lack of depth, my take is that we need no. 1 picks who can hit the ground running, not take 3-4 years to develop. I'm not going to call Amobi a "bust", but I will say that I think he was the wrong pick for this team because of our lack of depth and the amount of time it will take him to become a good starter that consistently contributes.

As far as TJ is concerned, I'm not impressed. Bust or not, I doubt many teams would be knocking at our door to make a deal for him. That says a lot, IMO.
 
Double Barrel said:
Because of our lack of depth, my take is that we need no. 1 picks who can hit the ground running, not take 3-4 years to develop. I'm not going to call Amobi a "bust", but I will say that I think he was the wrong pick for this team because of our lack of depth and the amount of time it will take him to become a good starter that consistently contributes.

As far as TJ is concerned, I'm not impressed. Bust or not, I doubt many teams would be knocking at our door to make a deal for him. That says a lot, IMO.
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I think the Texans thought TJ was a bust because they drafted Okoye ... who's the same type player .
 
Double Barrel said:
Because of our lack of depth, my take is that we need no. 1 picks who can hit the ground running, not take 3-4 years to develop. I'm not going to call Amobi a "bust", but I will say that I think he was the wrong pick for this team because of our lack of depth and the amount of time it will take him to become a good starter that consistently contributes.

As far as TJ is concerned, I'm not impressed. Bust or not, I doubt many teams would be knocking at our door to make a deal for him. That says a lot, IMO.
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I guess the 'good news' is that he should be where he is supposed to be by year 3 and we are headed right there. He's been the human shopping cart the majority of time so far but he has flashed some ability from time to time so there is a ray of hope.

I think TJ is what he is...a back up DT.
 
Whether Travis Johnson is a bust or not, I think the Texans aren't going to cut him this offseason.

I don't know how that will play into the draft, but I don't think that they will mind drafting his replacement, even if it is in the first round. Ugh, one more year of Travis Johnson and then we can be done with him, without having to take a salary hit.
 
I think they have both under performed considering where they were taken in the draft and what was expected of them. However, at this point, they are both at least solid NFL backups and that does not make them busts .... just dissappointments.

I truly believe Amobi's skill sets would be better utilized as a DE opposite Mario.
 
Runner said:
If they were third round picks they might be, but since they are first rounders, no. They are just developmental players that the Texans have the opportunity to pay miillions of dollars to.

The league needs to take control of rookie contracts.
Click to expand...


The only problem with TJ was he was best player available at a need position when the move down deal blew up in their face. You go back and look at the Florida State line he was on they were very good. As a unit, they out preformed their individual talents. Travis Johnson has had a knee two years in a row and he's sacrificed playing with it for us. It's not his fault, and I know there has been no one blasting the draft circumstances more than me, where he was taken. They need him now. He's valuable in the rotation. From my perspective, until Okam grows up, he's the best run DT we've got on the roster.

I appreciate the year he's had. I wouldn't mind him coming back. It's not his fault where he was drafted.
 
b0ng said:
1.) He has to declare first, which of course he's saying he won't do right now

2.) I think he's going in the top 10 when he gets picked. We would have to hope that he shows up to the combine that big and a lot of people shy away from him due to weight.

I do like him though and if he did fall I wouldn't care at all if we picked another defensive lineman.
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He's thirty five pounds over weight. So.....

the questions I have on my mind is: first, How does a guy with this much potential not get himself ready, NFL ready, by not coming in at his best possible weight this fall ? I'm sure Nick Saban and the coaches asked him to do it. He had his whole sophomore off season to do something about the weight. Did he not know that making a decent weight this fall was worth forty to fifty million dollars for him and his family ?

And of course the money. You're going to have to pay this walking heart attack how much guaranteed money ? And if he pulls a Cory Stringer on you in the middle of the contact, then what ? I read the guy as undisciplined or stupid....pick one. Any contract that I would give him would be highly tempered with Cody making his weight every week. 325 or under. He doesn't have the self discipline to control his weight, why would you want the guy ? What's too big too you ? 385 ? 425 ? I mean he hits 400 in the third year of the contract aren't you kinda caught by the short hairs ? Whatcha going to do then ?
 
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Ali4Real said:
Amobi Okoye is going through a Sophomore slump and I expect him to bounce back next season. But IMO, his success depends on the Texans drafting a beastly NT beside him. Here's what I am looking at.


Here is how our defensive line would line up across from the opposing offensive line:

Mario Williams lining up across from the opposing right tackle, Amobi Okoye besides him across from the weak guard (split guard or whatever), next to him we need a massive NT/DT to line up next to Amobi. Problem is is that Travis Johnson is only 303-lbs and he would get doubled team by the guard and center or guard and tackle which would combine to weigh in at 610+ lbs. At least when you have a NT that weighs in at 340-lbs like Frank Okam, he can "eat" up the guard and center leaving Amobi to matchup one-on-one with the other guard allowing him to get past the line of scrimmiage.

For example:

Teams that run a 4-3 defense have a massiv DT/NT next to there DT. Here are some of those teams that have a massive DT/NT and there physical stats:


Atlanta Falcons: Grady Jackson - 6'2" 345-lbs
Buffalo Bills: Marcus Stroud - 6'6" 330-lbs
Carolina Panthers: Maake Kemoeatu - 6'5" 345-lbs
Cincinnati Bengals: Domata Peko - 6'3" 325-lbs
Denver Broncos: Dewayne Robertson - 6'1" 320-bs


My point is that Amobi can't be declared a bust yet because he hasn't been in the league for a while (only two seasons) and Travis Johnson can be declared a bust but is playing the wrong position and not being properly utilized which isn't entirely his fault.


:fans:
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It is important to note that simply looking at a player's weight is insufficient. One must examine more thoroughly how the player's weight is distributed. To play NT a player needs to carry a large amount of lower body weight. In otherwords, he needs to be big in the pants.

This is the problem for Travis Johnson he doesn't have enough lower body weight to effectively play NT.

Albert Haynesworth, on the other hand, is 6ft-6in and 320lbs. While this is bigger than Travis Johnson's numbers, you can see that he is on the small end of the weight scale of the examples you have given. What is important is where he carries the weight.

PH2008022703904.jpg
texans_travis_johnson.jpg


I don't know if you can tell from these photos or not but Travis has less weight in his lower body than Albert.
 
Goatcheese said:
Okoye is anything but a bust. He has put alot of preasure on QBs this season, but been just 1 step too slow to get the sack. I think it's because of the extra weight he's carrying this season, and the ankle injury. I'd like to see the Texans pick up a big nasty NT and let AO play around 295, so he can regain that step. He would do even better if they put him in a scheme that let's him play to his strengths.
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I don't know what you've been watching, but it ain't been the Texans. Okoye has looked terrible this year and hasn't really done anything this year. I've heard talk that he's injured, the sit him out and get him healthy because he's no good to us this way. Okoye isnt' a bust yet, but he's well on his way to being one. If he doesn't make a marked improvement during training camp next year, its over and we've got two TJs on our hands.

Johnson's a bust and has been for many years now. Why he's still on this team is beyond me.
 
Hagar said:
I don't know what you've been watching, but it ain't been the Texans. Okoye has looked terrible this year and hasn't really done anything this year. If he doesn't make a marked improvement during training camp next year, its over and we've got two TJs on our hands.
Click to expand...

:mcnugget:
 
Travis Johnson is a 1st round bust. His is servicable, but warrants no more than a 4th round pick at best.

#91 deserves another year before bieng labeled. He's barely legal to drink and could've had a sophmore slump.
 
TJ should be a backup DT. Amobi I'm not sure yet but I don't think we NEED the cheeseburger chomping DT as much as Amobi and some of the other smaller DTs need to be used properly. They are gap penetrating, speed rusing DTs not stand up run stoppers.

Two words are thrown around so quickly "bust" and "franchise" it's up to the defensive staff to play to a players strength not try to force guys into roles they don't excel at. Kubiak and the offensive staff get this...why the Defensive staff hasn't is beyond me.
 
Ali4Real said:
Good point. If Cody can drop his weight down to at least 325-340 -lbs and keep it in control and not loose his speed then he's worth a look at. But for people who think he should go in the first, second or third round...I disagree. After all, are you going to pay a guy millions just so his lard ass can shed blocks and "eat" opposing linemen so the DE can have a sack-a-thon? I want a guy that has the size but more importantly the sta,mina and speed to handle the NFL, a guy like Kris Jenkins or Pat/Kevin Williams.
Click to expand...

Dropping a ton of weight actually takes away what makes Cody unique. They don't make big monsters much anymore
 
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