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Old 06-24-2005   #1
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Default Let's settle it...Carr vs Harrington

(Poster's note: Let me start off by saying that I don't believe Harrington is the better QB. I'd take Carr on just about every day except when he's off. This is more of a question as to why Harrington is perceived as the one who's not "lived up to his 3rd overall selection" while Carr is apparently on his way to the Hall of Fame.)


I know it's a dead horse but another article has come up on NFL.com and I just don't get it.

From the article...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFL.com
David Carr, taken first overall by the expansion Texans, started all 16 games as a rookie and was sacked a league-high 76 times. Carr has improved each year, setting career highs in completion percentage (61.2), yards (3,351), touchdowns (16) and quarterback rating (83.5) en route to leading the Texans to a franchise best 7-9 record in 2004.

Joey Harrington has been slow to develop in Detroit. With recent free-agent acquisition Jeff Garcia waiting in the wings, this season may be the last for Harrington to live up to his No. 3 overall selection. Harrington's cause should be helped by a bevy of young playmakers. The Lions have used their last three No. 1 picks on receivers Charles Rogers, Roy Williams and Mike Williams, and running back Kevin Jones led all rookies with 1,113 rush yards in 2004.
Carr set career highs last year - 61.2%, 3,351 yards, 16 TDs, 83.5 rating
Harrington set career highs last year - 56%, 3,047 yards, 19 TDs, 77.5 rating

Carr (and his numbers) have improved each year (rating only) - 62.8, 69.5, 83.5
Harrington (and his numbers) have improved each year (rating only) - 59.9, 63.9, 77.5

Carr leads the Texans to a "franchise best" 7-9 record.
Harrington leads the Lions to a 6-10 record.

Carr's record as a starter - 14-29.
Harrington's record as a starter - 14-30.

Just based on these numbers (I'll post more when they're called for), how is it that Harrington needs to validate his 3rd overall selection while Carr is seemingly getting a free ride from the media?

Anybody?
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Old 06-24-2005   #2
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Circumstances - David came to a new team where everyone was new, Joey went to "established" team and he was the new guy. David should have put up worse numbers, but didn't.
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Old 06-24-2005   #3
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I pretty much agree with what LCROD said. Carr came to an expansion franchise with not much on it at all. That's not to say that Joey had it easy, but he came to an established franchise. They had veteran personnel in place, and weren't left relying on other teams cast offs and waiver wire type of pick ups. In our first season McKinney was the best O-Lineman that we had on our team, and much of the talk now is how he is the weakest link on our line. That shows a marked improvement in the level of talent on the OLine. Joey didn't come into an ideal situation. He came to a team that had become familiar with losing and the fans were in search of a savior. All this from a team that has had a pretty bad history at picking starting QBs. I really think that you'll start to see the media be more critical of Carr since this is now our 4th season. We've got the same kind of depth that many other NFL teams have now, and excusing Carr for not having any talent around him is no longer accurate. I think Carr will make yet another step forward this season, and will start to prove his worth as a #1 overall pick in 2002. Harrington certainly has everything in place to succeed as well. He's got a trio of WRs that any QB would be envious of when they're all healthy, and he's got a skilled TE as well as a talented and promising young RB. His O-Line has been pretty solid throughout his development, and he has no more excuses either. I think if everyone stays healthy that Harrington will show improvement too (How could he not with that type of offense?), but I doubt that will be enough to ease concerns of Lions fans unless he helps them make a playoff run.
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Old 06-24-2005   #4
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Yea, I think Harrington's woes are receiving hype now because they've concentrated so much on providing him with weapons. He has 3 high first rounders to throw the ball to, a solid up and coming runner, and a shiny new tight end who's a great threat. Carr has AJ and Davis, the rest of the guys don't get too much attention from the media. If Harrington can't show good production leading the offense with the guys he has now, he may not be cut out for his role in Detroit.

Let me say that I don't think Carr has performed all that much better than Harrington, and both of them were drafted into poor starting situations. They both have the chance to be good QB's, Harrington just needs to put it all together now, and Carr just needs some time to throw the damn ball.
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Old 06-24-2005   #5
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I agree that Carr playing for an expansion team, while Harrington plays for an established team (no matter how bad they were) gives Carr more of the benefit of the doubt. Also, Carr's first year he was basically a tackling dummy, and things really have not gotten a whole lot better for him. Yet, he never bad mouths his teamates or coaches, or complains to the media. I think this has bought him some leeway.
But I think the biggest reason for Carr being viewed as the better QB, is because of the front office and fans reactions. Our front office and coaches have continually expressed total confidence in Carr, and have repeatedly said he is right on track. Harrington's, meanwhile, have been wishy washy and have not backed their QB consistently.
I think how the fans view their QB has a lot to do with it as well. Carr is well liked in Houston, and has the type of good natured family man personality that goes over well here. Harrington does not fit so well in blue collar Detroit. The fans have never really embraced him there, and that results in a poorer view of him league wide. If his own fans don't like him, how good could he possible be?
Now while these factors don't really have anything to do with on field production, I do believe they play a huge part in how a QB is viewed. Let's face it, most of these sports writers have not seen more than a couple of games from both teams, so their opinions are formed by how the QBs are viewed, and how they are viewed begins with their own fans and front office.
That said, I think Harrington can be a starting QB, but I don't think he will ever be anything exceptional. Carr on the other hand I believe has the potential, temperament, and tools to be a special player.
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Old 06-24-2005   #6
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Joey came to a Lions team that was cutting all of it's fat after Barry Left. And off 2-14 season.

If the Texans didn't get the expansion default #1 pick, the Lions would have had the #2 pick in the draft.

The Expansion team thing doesn't really mean much, The Lions had the worst team in 60 years of Lions Football. I'd call that a wash.


There is no debate about which one is better. Right now, they both havn't lived up to their status.

But the choice on who will do best next year? I am going with Joey, he would have to be a bust of Tim Couch Ryan Leaf levels NOT to do well next year with all that help.

From Famine to Feast for Joey, I bet he goes to bed with a big stupid grin on his face until the first game.


We could sit here and debate which is better all day long, both QB's have strengths and weakness, both QB's havn't won very much.

Both QB's had a crappy casts their first 3 years, with Carr having an egde in healthy skill players.
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Old 06-24-2005   #7
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Not again.

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Old 06-24-2005   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwallaia
Not again.

I felt the same way, and it's admirable tha Huge included "Let's settle it..." in the title of the thread but we all know this debate will be an ongoing thing for many seasons to come.
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Old 06-24-2005   #9
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Another reason why Carr doesn't get it as bad as Harrington is that Carr has won more that Harrington. I mean the only time the Texans picked before the Lions was when they picked Carr.
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Old 06-24-2005   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihategeeks
But the choice on who will do best next year? I am going with Joey, he would have to be a bust of Tim Couch Ryan Leaf levels NOT to do well next year with all that help.
I'll remember you said that for when Garcia takes over in week 7.
I see Harringtons next season going like this......
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Old 06-24-2005   #11
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Its really quite simple. Lion fans like to bring up stats except for this one. 140 to 53. Carr has been sacked almost a hundred more times and the best Joey could do is put up #s comparable to his. Switch those Stats and think about it. Joey gets sacked 140 times and his inacurate passes only get worse, it would be devestating to his production. Carr has managed to stay afloat and his production #s have been able to absord those sack #s. Regardless of all those sacks and pressure he has been able to reach the 60% mark. While despite all of the protection Harrington has had, especialy in his first two seasons could not. Harrington is going to have to have a probowl year right out of the gate to keep his job. Steve M. isn't going to take anything less. You could see it all over his face in his last interview on Total Access. When asked about Joey he said the political correct thing and said what he had to say, but when asked about Garcia, his expression totally changed. There is no doubt in my mind who is going to be the starting qb at about week 5. Steve didn't draft Joey and Garcia wasn't brought in to be the back up
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Old 06-24-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carr Bomb
...Regardless of all those sacks and pressure he has been able to reach the 60% mark. While despite all of the protection Harrington has had, especialy in his first two seasons could not...
I don't agree with you analysis. Harrington's lower sack total & lower completion % can be partially explained by his willingness to throw the ball away in the face of the pass rush. Carr is more likely to hold on to the ball and try to make a play. While I do believe Joey has gotten better pass protection than Carr, I don't think his blocking has been stellar.

On the flip side, Harrington's quick trigger has brought his toughness into question. What this tells me is that when you lose, critics will find something to complain about. If Carr & Harrington's teams start to win, most of their critics will go away.
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Old 06-24-2005   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blockhead83
He has 3 high first rounders to throw the ball to, a solid up and coming runner, and a shiny new tight end who's a great threat. Carr has AJ and Davis, the rest of the guys don't get too much attention from the media.
The Lions have got to have one of the greatest collections of young, WRs
ever assembled on a single team - I'm sure DC would kill to have any one
of those guys to play alongside AJ. And TE, this is the most underserved position on the Texans team.
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Old 06-24-2005   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
I don't agree with you analysis. Harrington's lower sack total & lower completion % can be partially explained by his willingness to throw the ball away in the face of the pass rush. Carr is more likely to hold on to the ball and try to make a play. While I do believe Joey has gotten better pass protection than Carr, I don't think his blocking has been stellar.

On the flip side, Harrington's quick trigger has brought his toughness into question. What this tells me is that when you lose, critics will find something to complain about. If Carr & Harrington's teams start to win, most of their critics will go away.
He was sacked under 20 times in 2 seasons. His protection has been there. His problem is he is very inacurate. If it wasn't for Roy Williams making some stellar catches on underthrown balls one of them could of possibly been a int. He also has played in a division that has had 2 teams who can't decide who wants to win the division and plays in the NFC at the weakest it has ever been. Last year sub .500 teams were still in contention until the last week, thats pathetic. Other than last season the Titans and Colts have been two of the best teams in all of football and we play in the AFC which is loaded from top to bottom and has the leagues best defenses. Harrington has been given every chance to succeed, with FOUR #1 draft picks spent on offense the last 3 Drafts. Carr has had only ONE draft pick spent on his side of the ball since he came into the league.
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Old 06-24-2005   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carr Bomb
He was sacked under 20 times in 2 seasons. His protection has been there. His problem is he is very inacurate.
So you're saying that Harrington doesn't have a propensity for throwing the ball away? I'm aware of Harrington's sack numbers (which rose to 36 after Mariucci implored Joey to hold on to the ball longer). What I'm saying is that if Harrington's sack totals go up, it doesn't mean (as you suggested) his completion % would go down. In fact, I'd expect it to rise.

As far as how many #1 picks has had to work with, Joey hasn't had Rogers much over the past 2 seasons (and it's questionable if he ever will). And Kevin Jones wasn't fully incorporated in the Lions offense until the 2nd half of the '04 season (FF freaks take note). Obviously, Harrington will have the weapons in '05, but I wouldn't say his cup was runneth over in previous seasons.
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Old 06-24-2005   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihategeeks
The Expansion team thing doesn't really mean much, The Lions had the worst team in 60 years of Lions Football. I'd call that a wash.......
Both QB's had a crappy casts their first 3 years, with Carr having an egde in healthy skill players.
I disagree completely. The worst team in 60 years is still better than the no team Houston had. It is safe to say that Detroit had a better roster from top to bottom than Houston had when the QB's were drafted.
Carr having an edge on healthy skill players? How about Joey having an edge on better players across the board (at that time). If your backups are not better than an expansion teams starters in the first few years, that bad on the "established" team. Switch the 2 QB's and David flourishes faster in Detroit and Joey never makes out of the 1st season.
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Old 06-24-2005   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
So you're saying that Harrington doesn't have a propensity for throwing the ball away? I'm aware of Harrington's sack numbers (which rose to 36 after Mariucci implored Joey to hold on to the ball longer). What I'm saying is that if Harrington's sack totals go up, it doesn't mean (as you suggested) his completion % would go down. In fact, I'd expect it to rise.

As far as how many #1 picks has had to work with, Joey hasn't had Rogers much over the past 2 seasons (and it's questionable if he ever will). And Kevin Jones wasn't fully incorporated in the Lions offense until the 2nd half of the '04 season (FF freaks take note). Obviously, Harrington will have the weapons in '05, but I wouldn't say his cup was runneth over in previous seasons.
I'm not saying he doesn't have a propensiy for throwing the ball away. When I talk about inacurate passes I'm not talking about him throwing the ball away. I'm talking about him throwing inacurate passes. I'm saying he has played behind a much better line than Carr has, which he has. I remember in our game the announcers saying "Lots of time" or "Plenty of time", which are phrases I've never heard when Carr was under center. I really don't remember any draft analyst saying anything about the lions needing any lineman. While we were blasted for not taking one with our #1 pick. Yes Rodgers has been injured, but I just bring up the 4 draft picks as the willingness his front office has had to supply him with the tools he needed. Harrington has played behind a better Oline against weaker competition. I'm not rooting for the guy to fail or anything, I hope he can get it together next year, especialy with the weapons he is going to have at his disposel, cause if he doesn't it is going to get UUGGLLY!
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Old 06-24-2005   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
So you're saying that Harrington doesn't have a propensity for throwing the ball away? I'm aware of Harrington's sack numbers (which rose to 36 after Mariucci implored Joey to hold on to the ball longer). What I'm saying is that if Harrington's sack totals go up, it doesn't mean (as you suggested) his completion % would go down. In fact, I'd expect it to rise.

As far as how many #1 picks has had to work with, Joey hasn't had Rogers much over the past 2 seasons (and it's questionable if he ever will). And Kevin Jones wasn't fully incorporated in the Lions offense until the 2nd half of the '04 season (FF freaks take note). Obviously, Harrington will have the weapons in '05, but I wouldn't say his cup was runneth over in previous seasons.
Oh and if his sack total went up because he held on to the ball longer, which in theroy should of made his comp. % rise. It really didn't help his case much, his comp. % went up a whole .2%, again proving that he is a inacurate passer.
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Old 06-24-2005   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCROD
Circumstances - David came to a new team where everyone was new, Joey went to "established" team and he was the new guy. David should have put up worse numbers, but didn't.
I can somewhat agree to this. But as the Lion fan pointed out, there's not much difference between joining an expansion team and joining a team that really blows (as the Lion's 2nd to last place finish in '01 would indicate).

And as the #1 overall pick compared to the #3 overall pick, the #1 overall pick should never be expected to put up worse numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockhead83
Yea, I think Harrington's woes are receiving hype now because they've concentrated so much on providing him with weapons. He has 3 high first rounders to throw the ball to, a solid up and coming runner, and a shiny new tight end who's a great threat. Carr has AJ and Davis, the rest of the guys don't get too much attention from the media. If Harrington can't show good production leading the offense with the guys he has now, he may not be cut out for his role in Detroit.

Let me say that I don't think Carr has performed all that much better than Harrington, and both of them were drafted into poor starting situations. They both have the chance to be good QB's, Harrington just needs to put it all together now, and Carr just needs some time to throw the damn ball.

texasguy346 I pretty much agree with what LCROD said. Carr came to an expansion franchise with not much on it at all. That's not to say that Joey had it easy, but he came to an established franchise. They had veteran personnel in place, and weren't left relying on other teams cast offs and waiver wire type of pick ups. In our first season McKinney was the best O-Lineman that we had on our team, and much of the talk now is how he is the weakest link on our line. That shows a marked improvement in the level of talent on the OLine. Joey didn't come into an ideal situation. He came to a team that had become familiar with losing and the fans were in search of a savior. All this from a team that has had a pretty bad history at picking starting QBs. I really think that you'll start to see the media be more critical of Carr since this is now our 4th season. We've got the same kind of depth that many other NFL teams have now, and excusing Carr for not having any talent around him is no longer accurate. I think Carr will make yet another step forward this season, and will start to prove his worth as a #1 overall pick in 2002. Harrington certainly has everything in place to succeed as well. He's got a trio of WRs that any QB would be envious of when they're all healthy, and he's got a skilled TE as well as a talented and promising young RB. His O-Line has been pretty solid throughout his development, and he has no more excuses either. I think if everyone stays healthy that Harrington will show improvement too (How could he not with that type of offense?), but I doubt that will be enough to ease concerns of Lions fans unless he helps them make a playoff run.
Here's where I introduce more numbers:

People have pointed out that the Lions drafted Charles Rogers, Roy Williams and now Mike Williams.

Well so far, Mike Williams has yet to see the field for the Lions. So we can't blame Harrington for not completing any passes to him. Charles Rogers has played a grand total of 6 games while catching 3 TDs. Roy Williams has played in 12 games while catching 8 TDs. That's a total of 18 games combined. Andre Johnson has played in 32 games.

And if you take away the 11 TDs that Harrington has thrown to Rogers and Williams, he still has more TDs (37) than Carr (34).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexSon
I agree that Carr playing for an expansion team, while Harrington plays for an established team (no matter how bad they were) gives Carr more of the benefit of the doubt. Also, Carr's first year he was basically a tackling dummy, and things really have not gotten a whole lot better for him. Yet, he never bad mouths his teamates or coaches, or complains to the media. I think this has bought him some leeway.
But I think the biggest reason for Carr being viewed as the better QB, is because of the front office and fans reactions. Our front office and coaches have continually expressed total confidence in Carr, and have repeatedly said he is right on track. Harrington's, meanwhile, have been wishy washy and have not backed their QB consistently.
I think how the fans view their QB has a lot to do with it as well. Carr is well liked in Houston, and has the type of good natured family man personality that goes over well here. Harrington does not fit so well in blue collar Detroit. The fans have never really embraced him there, and that results in a poorer view of him league wide. If his own fans don't like him, how good could he possible be?
Now while these factors don't really have anything to do with on field production, I do believe they play a huge part in how a QB is viewed. Let's face it, most of these sports writers have not seen more than a couple of games from both teams, so their opinions are formed by how the QBs are viewed, and how they are viewed begins with their own fans and front office.
That said, I think Harrington can be a starting QB, but I don't think he will ever be anything exceptional. Carr on the other hand I believe has the potential, temperament, and tools to be a special player.
That's an outstanding take. And I agree with everything you just said.

Problem is, their performance on the field hasn't warranted such a difference in their perceptions thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasguy346
I felt the same way, and it's admirable tha Huge included "Let's settle it..." in the title of the thread but we all know this debate will be an ongoing thing for many seasons to come.

gwallaia Not again.
I understand what y'all are saying. But again, this isn't a comparison between the two players. I'm trying to get a feel on why there's such a difference in their perceptions.

Again, I just don't see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by F-minus67
Another reason why Carr doesn't get it as bad as Harrington is that Carr has won more that Harrington. I mean the only time the Texans picked before the Lions was when they picked Carr.
See Vinny's post. And again:

Carr's record as a starting QB - 14-29
Harrington's record as a starting QB - 14-30

Carr is 1/2 a game better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nunusguy
The Lions have got to have one of the greatest collections of young, WRs ever assembled on a single team - I'm sure DC would kill to have any one of those guys to play alongside AJ. And TE, this is the most underserved position on the Texans team.

Carr BombHe was sacked under 20 times in 2 seasons. His protection has been there. His problem is he is very inacurate. If it wasn't for Roy Williams making some stellar catches on underthrown balls one of them could of possibly been a int. He also has played in a division that has had 2 teams who can't decide who wants to win the division and plays in the NFC at the weakest it has ever been. Last year sub .500 teams were still in contention until the last week, thats pathetic. Other than last season the Titans and Colts have been two of the best teams in all of football and we play in the AFC which is loaded from top to bottom and has the leagues best defenses. Harrington has been given every chance to succeed, with FOUR #1 draft picks spent on offense the last 3 Drafts. Carr has had only ONE draft pick spent on his side of the ball since he came into the league.
But again, how many games has this "greatest collection of young WRs ever assembled" played? Sure the future is bright, but what has it gotten them so far?

In '02, Detroit's leading WR was Az-Zahir Hakim. In '03 it was Shawn Bryson. In '04 it was Roy Williams (in 12 games).

Not exactly the pretty picture of "FOUR #1 draft picks" that you're painting it to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LCROD
I disagree completely. The worst team in 60 years is still better than the no team Houston had. It is safe to say that Detroit had a better roster from top to bottom than Houston had when the QB's were drafted. Carr having an edge on healthy skill players? How about Joey having an edge on better players across the board (at that time). If your backups are not better than an expansion teams starters in the first few years, that bad on the "established" team. Switch the 2 QB's and David flourishes faster in Detroit and Joey never makes out of the 1st season.
Who were the better players "across the board" for Detroit? Was there such a dramatic difference between the teams that both QBs can put up similar numbers yet be perceived so differently?


Thanks for the responses. I was hoping to get several unbiased opinions and so far there are a ton of them.
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Old 06-24-2005   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCROD
I disagree completely. The worst team in 60 years is still better than the no team Houston had. It is safe to say that Detroit had a better roster from top to bottom than Houston had when the QB's were drafted.
Carr having an edge on healthy skill players? How about Joey having an edge on better players across the board (at that time). If your backups are not better than an expansion teams starters in the first few years, that bad on the "established" team. .
Starters still on the team from the 2002 season that are still starters now.

Harrington (rookie)
Rogers ( 2002 he was almost traded because of his poor play)
Raiola ( first good year was 2004)
Backus (solid )
Hall ( 2 sacks, 50 tackles)
Corey Schlsinger (best FB EVER *homer alert*)

Everyone else is either gone or at the bottom of a depth chart. Or gone, and not goen on other teams, alot of them are out of the league. Much like your team.

And even the players we did have, were on IR. You can tell me how much the Lions were talented. But that doesn't mean squat if they aren't on the field.

Quote:
Switch the 2 QB's and David flourishes faster in Detroit and Joey never makes out of the 1st season
So David Carr would pick up the WCO faster than Joey, and he would learn to make his progressions faster than Joey, and learn to read a defense faster than Joey, and would overcome no rushing attack in 2003, and no WR's worth a damn for 02 , 03, and most of 04? David Carr wouldn't be effected by 2 OC changes(going on 3), and a Headcoaching Change.

And despite all the injuries, the piss poor team, he would flourish.

Ok, why hasn't he flourished in Houston? Grandmaster of overcoming adversity should have no problem.


This debate is incredibly stupid. Niether one of these guys has had a real team around them. And right now, we are trying to prove our points by proving our team is worse than the other guys. How sad is that?

Vinny said it best. The difference is 1 win. (and Joey has the H2H)

Both teams sucked ,niether QB has lived up to draft status. BOTH have alot to prove in 2005. But the Lions have the better team going into 2005. And I think Carr should get until his 5th year myself. I can't say the same for Joey, he has a complete compliment now
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