Lions interested in Glover Quin *UPDATE* Signed by Lions

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by badboy

My understanding is Quin only moved into that role when the LBs fell apart. It is not the scheme Wade prefer to run frequently. Man is good so let's not knock Phillips for that (if you were). ANother LB in draft that can cover will work.

No, he was put in the position because its impossible for a linebacker of 240 plus pounds to play that position effectively. He has been doing it since Wade arrived.

Originally Posted by badboy

Kubiak stated before season ended that Harris had improved and had to get his timing in game down. We need to allow both him and Carmichael same time we allowed KJ to develop. Both were getting reps at corner not safety so I think it is possible if we draft another LB that can cover.

Roc and Harris never had the potential of a KJax. Neither of those guys is worth anything. Maybe Harris is a decent #4 corner but that is speculative at best. I saw the potential in KJax when the majority of folks around here wanted his head cut off. I took major heat for it too. Now people are saying that KJax is more important than Quin. I disagree with that. It's funny how quickly people change their tune though.

[b0ng]

There are a lot of guys in the FA Safety market. We'll see what all these guys get.

[SW H-TOWN]

I still don't understand why we let this guy hit the open market, especially with Keo as his backup. We did the same thing last year. We very well could have lost Chris Myers last year and lost Mike Brisel, I am not a fan of this policy to say the least. If you have a guy that is a top priority to resign you do not let his ass hit the open market. Most of the time he will cost you more if he is any good because you have to compete with teams with a lot of cap room and dumb General Managers and owners who continually overpay for players.

[TexanBacker93]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Everybody is replaceable. It won't be easy to replace Quin and all the roles he plays for the team. Quin does way more for the team than Manning, he is much more versatile.

I'm not suggesting that Manning is more valuable. If it were a situation where they were both FAs and you could only re-sign one, I'd take Quin right now. However, Manning is under contract already.

Technically everyone is replaceable. The problem lies with can you replace them with a comparable level or better player.

It would be a lot easier to get another S of Quin's ability than a DE of Watt's or a WR of Johnson's.

[HOU-TEX]

Originally Posted by SW H-TOWN

I still don't understand why we let this guy hit the open market, especially with Keo as his backup. We did the same thing last year. We very well could have lost Chris Myers last year and lost Mike Brisel, I am not a fan of this policy to say the least. If you have a guy that is a top priority to resign you do not let his ass hit the open market. Most of the time he will cost you more if he is any good because you have to compete with teams with a lot of cap room and dumb General Managers and owners who continually overpay for players.

Maybe the player decides to test the market on his own. Ever think about that?

[TexanBacker93]

Originally Posted by SW H-TOWN

I still don't understand why we let this guy hit the open market, especially with Keo as his backup. We did the same thing last year. We very well could have lost Chris Myers last year and lost Mike Brisel, I am not a fan of this policy to say the least. If you have a guy that is a top priority to resign you do not let his ass hit the open market. Most of the time he will cost you more if he is any good because you have to compete with teams with a lot of cap room and dumb General Managers and owners who continually overpay for players.

The only way to keep them from the open market is to hit them with the franchise tag. While the hit for safeties is lower than most spots it is still too costly for him when we don't have a lot of room.

I guess it would have been possible to extend at the beginning of the season, but as we've seen with Schaub that can backfire. I'm sure there has been an offer on the table for a long term deal since the season ended, or soon thereafter. Obviously, it wasn't exactly what Quin wanted, but you have to have a budget and know how much you can pay a player. If the team has to start cutting too many players to sign one then you create even more holes.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by SW H-TOWN

I still don't understand why we let this guy hit the open market, especially with Keo as his backup. We did the same thing last year. We very well could have lost Chris Myers last year and lost Mike Brisel, I am not a fan of this policy to say the least. If you have a guy that is a top priority to resign you do not let his ass hit the open market. Most of the time he will cost you more if he is any good because you have to compete with teams with a lot of cap room and dumb General Managers and owners who continually overpay for players.

I heard an interview with Quin the other day and he said the Texans had to want to keep him here. Reading between the lines, he's asking a certain amount, and the Texans don't want to pay it. So let him test the waters, and if the best he can do is 3.5m a year for 4 years, the Texans will probably match it. If the Browns offer him 5 years 30 million, then he's gone. The guy hasn't made a whole lot in his career so far, so I can't blame him for wanting top dollar.

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by TexanBacker93

I'm not suggesting that Manning is more valuable. If it were a situation where they were both FAs and you could only re-sign one, I'd take Quin right now. However, Manning is under contract already.

Technically everyone is replaceable. The problem lies with can you replace them with a comparable level or better player.

It would be a lot easier to get another S of Quin's ability than a DE of Watt's or a WR of Johnson's.

Right, I definitely agree with you about Cushing and Watt. The big point I am trying to make is that the level of play we got from Quin will cost a good chunk of change and/or a high draft pick to replace.

A guy like Byrd would never be able to play Quin's role. I don't think Delmas can either. Maybe you can say that Byrd is "as good" as Quin, but it boils down to scheme and what a player is asked to do. Byrd in this scheme would suck compared to Quin, and Quin as a centerfield type of safety would probably not be as effective as he is now. Even if they could, why do people assume they can be had for less than what Quin is asking or would want?

I didn't mean to insinuate that you were saying anything about Manning, just using him as an example of a player that won't fill the role. Manning is good at what he does though.

I'm all for replacing him with a cheaper option if we get the same level of play. I just don't think that is as easy as it sounds or really even possible given what is out there. If that's what we want, it's going to have to be someone on a rookie contract.

[TexanBacker93]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Right, I definitely agree with you about Cushing and Watt. The big point I am trying to make is that the level of play we got from Quin will cost a good chunk of change and/or a high draft pick to replace.

A guy like Byrd would never be able to play Quin's role. I don't think Delmas can either. Maybe you can say that Byrd is "as good" as Quin, but it boils down to scheme and what a player is asked to do. Byrd in this scheme would suck compared to Quin, and Quin as a centerfield type of safety would probably not be as effective as he is now.

I'm all for replacing him with a cheaper option if we get the same level of play. I just don't think that is as easy as it sounds or really even possible given what is out there. If that's what we want, it's going to have to be someone on a rookie contract.

It could be that they figure they can get a slight drop-off in production with a rookie safety, but can upgrade more significantly at DT and OLB for the same amount of money it would cost to keep Quin. It could be like going with JJo and Manning instead of Nnamdi. We upgraded 2 positions for the same cost as just upgrading the one.

The key is going to be what do they do at their open positions.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

No, he was put in the position because its impossible for a linebacker of 240 plus pounds to play that position effectively. He has been doing it since Wade arrived.



Roc and Harris never had the potential of a KJax. Neither of those guys is worth anything. Maybe Harris is a decent #4 corner but that is speculative at best. I saw the potential in KJax when the majority of folks around here wanted his head cut off. I took major heat for it too. Now people are saying that KJax is more important than Quin. I disagree with that. It's funny how quickly people change their tune though.

Not going to bring up the KJ debate all over but to your response KJ was terrible first season and mediocre second. New coaching has developed him into what he is today. Same coaching could do same for Brandon & Roc. This will be KJ's 4th season and he really looked like a starter in his third season. This is the third season for Harris & Carmichael.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by redwhiteblue

I thought that tweet was in reference to Boldin getting traded

That would have made more sense.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Bulls on Parade

We need to beef up our front seven in this draft. We could use an upgrade at nose tackle, another starter at inside linebacker (next to Cushing), and a future upgrade at right end (the ninja is aging).

In all honesty, I could care less about the defense. We've spent to many years & too many draft picks on defense over the last 5 years. This is an offense driven league. There's no such thing as a dominate defense, look what happened to the 49ers in the play offs.

We need bend but don't break defense. Get a key stop defense.

I'd be perfectly fine if we took offensive players with our first 4 picks.

Let Wade make lemonade for a while.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

In all honesty, I could care less about the defense. We've spent to many years & too many draft picks on defense over the last 5 years. This is an offense driven league. There's no such thing as a dominate defense, look what happened to the 49ers in the play offs.

We need bend but don't break defense. Get a key stop defense.

I'd be perfectly fine if we took offensive players with our first 4 picks.

Let Wade make lemonade for a while.

but... but... Wade SINGLEHANDEDLY is responsible for us being in the playoffs for the past two seasons!! Just ask SteelB.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by deucetx

Put it like this...Quin allowed a QB rating of 95.9 and the 3rd most touchdowns allowed by safeties last year. Is that 'can't miss talent?' type of numbers where you break your bank? Course not. Solid but not exceptional.

But how many times was he covering someone most people wouldn't put a safety on?

I think it's hard to judge Quin based on stats. How does he allow 95.9 QB ratting, but have 16 passes defensed & 2 Ints? And a sack & a hundred tackles?

Was he the only one on defense?

He passes the eyeball test to me. He's a baller & we need them on this team.

I agree, he's not an "at all cost" player, & he's not going to pick one & take it to the house, or look as pretty as Jarius Byrd. But he deserves to be well compensated.

Hopefully he understands what his true value is & Rick Smith is at least in the ball park. If he decides to walk after that, then it is what it is. Can't blame Rick for not overpaying, can't blame Quin for getting all he can while he can.

[TexanSam]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

In all honesty, I could care less about the defense. We've spent to many years & too many draft picks on defense over the last 5 years. This is an offense driven league. There's no such thing as a dominate defense, look what happened to the 49ers in the play offs.

We need bend but don't break defense. Get a key stop defense.

I'd be perfectly fine if we took offensive players with our first 4 picks.

Let Wade make lemonade for a while.

Remember 2010?

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by TexanSam

Remember 2010?

I thought we were blaming Frank Bush for that.

[SW H-TOWN]

Originally Posted by HOU-TEX

Maybe the player decides to test the market on his own. Ever think about that?

I have given it serious thought but I still think it is a really bad move to let him hit the open market because we have 4 options. Play Keo, sign a free agent, draft a rookie, or tag him.

Playing Keo would be a disaster.

Sign a free agent. Dashon Goldston, William Moore and Jairus Byrd would cost too much. Rick Smith knew this if they did any type of analysis which they probably did a while ago. Lewis Delmas can't stay healthy. Kenny Phillips had microfracture surgery a couple of years ago and also missed most of 2012 with another knee injury. Ed Reed will never play for the Texans. LaRon Landry has had a very inconsistent career. The rest of the guys are either old or a significant downgrade.

As for a rookie I believe that we have too many needs to draft a safety who can start from day one.

For this reason I personally would have placed the franchise tag of 6.8 million on him, worked on a long term deal, and cut a player like Kevin Walter (just did that) to help make room for a player who is a crucial part of our no depth secondary. Many players like to test free agency but given the circumstances and alternatives I think that it was stupid to let Quin hit the open market.

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Also how does anybody go about assigning a QB rating that was allowed by one defensive player??? That's impossible to do. How do they determine that he allowed the TD and not somebody else. We have already had this discussion on silly stats a million times. A QB rating allowed assigned to a defensive player? Seriously?

Quin provides us with a safety that can man up on the slot and TEs effectively and can play the run well. Name me some guys in free agency or through the draft that can do it as well as him.

I'll save you some time and tell you that there aren't any that will sign for lower than Quin and we can't afford a slip in production. Safety play is the most important thing in THIS Wade defense outside of pass rush. You start putting Manning or a less competent man cover safety in Quin's role and we are going to get SMASHED by the likes of the Patriots and other spread offenses. Just warning you now.

So basically you say that you can see Quin is doing all this, handling his coverage responsibilities to the degree no one else can do yet when someone else reviews the games and tapes they aren't capable of evaluating and coming up with the QB rating against that player because they have no clue about his assignments? But somehow you know. The rating has been there for a several years at this point so yeah...it is possible.

Put it like this...you are trying to say no one can do what he does. That is a stretch because he lines up next to someone that did it and does it. One, the safety spots are interchangable. So Manning will get smashed shows you are assuming. He played the role with the Texans to an extent but also with the Bears. He played nickle back to cover the slot guys then moved to SS in the box for the Bears. He had the same responsibilities when they didn't utilize cover 2 which is a majority of the time when he was the strong safety. Manning played FS, NB, SS and FS again. So yeah, he can do it too. And we have no clue if those like Byrd could either. But I simply bring up Manning because I'm a Bears/Texans fan so have seen him since his rookie year. He was a pet for Lovie Smith.

As for us getting smashed by spreads. Heh, we did. Our secondary was 16th in the league after all. Spreads already are killing us so what would be so different?

Anyway, as others said, he is solid and pretty much everyone wants him back. I see little reason of arguement because guys simply don't want to overpay for him but want him back. We all know we are better with him than trying to fill yet another hole. But it shouldn't come at the cost of our future re-signings and moves.

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

But how many times was he covering someone most people wouldn't put a safety on?

I think it's hard to judge Quin based on stats. How does he allow 95.9 QB ratting, but have 16 passes defensed & 2 Ints? And a sack & a hundred tackles?

Was he the only one on defense?

He passes the eyeball test to me. He's a baller & we need them on this team.

I agree, he's not an "at all cost" player, & he's not going to pick one & take it to the house, or look as pretty as Jarius Byrd. But he deserves to be well compensated.

Hopefully he understands what his true value is & Rick Smith is at least in the ball park. If he decides to walk after that, then it is what it is. Can't blame Rick for not overpaying, can't blame Quin for getting all he can while he can.

Eh, you either get the job done or you don't, right? More teams have shifted corners to the safety position so this isn't some new phenom. They do this to matchup with the same type of players we're matching Quin up with now. It's the evolution of the game. Manning was holding the same coverage assignments in 2009. In basic packages for the Bears he was strong safety (i.e. extra linebacker) and in spread he moved to nickle and someone else came to safety.

As for rating, it is calculated (from what I gathered) same as QB rating is. Yes, he has the stats you stated except the tackles. Only 84 of those (64 solo). He also allowed the 3rd most touchdowns for safeties. He was also the highly targetted on our team like Kareem. So he allowed more receptions.

Our secondary wasn't that strong folks. So far I have heard KJax was great, Joseph was good, McCain was good before being injured and now Quin is amazing too. LOL so where is the weakness that the spreads attacked so much if everyone is so good? Sure wasn't just linebackers or Manning since his season was similar to Quin's.

In any case, as said earlier. No one is saying he is a bad player. Haven't heard one person say it yet. He's just not exceptional. He's solid and we all rather keep him. So again what is the discussion unless you think he is top notch.

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by deucetx

So basically you say that you can see Quin is doing all this, handling his coverage responsibilities to the degree no one else can do yet when someone else reviews the games and tapes they aren't capable of evaluating and coming up with the QB rating against that player because they have no clue about his assignments? But somehow you know. The rating has been there for a several years at this point so yeah...it is possible.

I didn't say that nobody could provide what Quin provided, I am saying you won't get it at a low price, or lower than what Quin would command. Additionally, there isn't a group of free agents out there that can provide what Quin provided. If there are, please point me to them. I also never said I knew what his assignments were all the time. That is what would be required to come up with a rating system such as the one your backing. When I say that something is not possible, it is based on common sense. It doesn't mean that I think I know all of his assignments.

Reading comprehension needed.

It's not difficult to see when someone is in man coverage on a player. Zone is the problem, if you are trying to determine who is responsible for what catch or what touchdown. When I speak about Quin being able to effectively man up on slot receivers, that is something that is easily viewable. Rating a defensive player based off of quarterback rating requires that you know every player's assignment on every play and the way that each player is coached. That is impossible. Again, common sense. Here is an article with Quin talking about getting "help" from other players on a specific play. Maybe he can help you understand why that rating system is a joke.

“I definitely feel like I can cover. I’ve played two years in the NFL as a cornerback, so I definitely feel like I can cover, but I’m a scheme guy. I’m a guy that I understand the defense, I understand the schemes and I understand my leverages and my help. When you’re playing corner in this league, if you understand the scheme and you understand what’s going on, you can for the most part survive if you know where you’ve got your help at. There’s not a lot of people out there that can just cover every route by a great receiver. You can’t do that, but if you know you got help on the inside, well if he goes inside, I don’t care. I’m playing every route on the outside or vice versa or I’m fighting everything deep because I know I’ve got short help. It just depends on the leverage and the scheme that you have. I mean, if you understand that, than you can be successful as a corner.”

Your telling me that some random guy watching film is privy to all that information for every team and every defensive scheme in the NFL? He also understands the small differences in the way each player is coached and therefore can account for that in his rating system, correct? He understands these things well enough to create a rating system that so specifically grades players? I mean, 95.7 or whatever it was is pretty specific, wouldn't you say? And you trust that rating system?

Originally Posted by deucetx

Put it like this...you are trying to say no one can do what he does. That is a stretch because he lines up next to someone that did it and does it. One, the safety spots are interchangable. So Manning will get smashed shows you are assuming. He played the role with the Texans to an extent but also with the Bears. He played nickle back to cover the slot guys then moved to SS in the box for the Bears. He had the same responsibilities when they didn't utilize cover 2 which is a majority of the time when he was the strong safety. Manning played FS, NB, SS and FS again. So yeah, he can do it too. And we have no clue if those like Byrd could either. But I simply bring up Manning because I'm a Bears/Texans fan so have seen him since his rookie year. He was a pet for Lovie Smith.

Your just plain wrong, sorry to say it. Quin and Manning play different roles, dramatically different. They don't put Manning in man against the better TEs and slot WRs in the game on a consistent basis. Manning may have been able to do it when he was young and with the Bears, but that's not the case anymore. I wouldn't even be able to tell if you if that is true or not because I didn't watch enough of the Bears back then. I watch every Texan game, obviously, so I can speak about that. If he was equally as good as Quin at playing receivers in the slot, why is Quin doing is so much more often? Why don't we see their roles reversed more often? Again, common sense.