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Old 03-05-2013   #41
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by deucetx View Post
Perfectly said. I was making a list in response then realized 'Damn...this is longer than I thought'. This right here covers it perfectly. Right now it's more about what he means to the Texans than what he is compared to the other safeties so they should do what they can to bring him back but don't go overboard and put yourself in a hole for future signings/extensions. Not often you hear about safety contracts going the way of absurd though so there's that.

Unfortunately with Byrd and Wilson off the free agent listing that means Quin just moved up more and if his agent knows his business he'll tell Quin to test the market because someone will seek his services at this point.
I don't think Quin is a top 5 safety. But I don't think he should be compared to guys like Byrd either. They play the position totally different & I think our system demands Quin plays the role he is. Byrd would be more like what we are asking (or should be asking) Manning & our Dime Safety to be doing.

If we're asking Quin to play centerfield ball hawk.... you're right, he is not that guy & never will be. But that's not at all what we're asking him to do.

Ed Reed is an excellent safety, but I don't think he could do what Quin is doing. We wouldn't ask him to, he's a different player all together.
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Old 03-05-2013   #42
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by Lurvinator11 View Post
Wow. Look at the classy attitude from shetexan. I will not concede my opinions on him and admit you were right, because you weren't. I would be upset if I we lose Quinn, but that doesn't automatically overturn every good thing RS ha done for this team, which you foolishly overlook due to your warped and biased view. And no, it does not solely lie at his feet. This is a team game, not a blame game. The failure of our team lies on the team, not the GM whose sole responsibility is to sign players who are good for our team, which he has done.
I responded to your PM! Enjoy the board, it's the BEST!!
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Old 03-05-2013   #43
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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I responded to your PM! Enjoy the board, it's the BEST!!
I wish you well She Texan!!
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Old 03-05-2013   #44
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I agree with you for the most part .... I dont think either is worth the franchise number.

Just wonder , what do you think Quin's value is both to the Texans and on the open market.
I think there will be a team that's willing to pay him more than what he's capable of putting on the field. It happens every year, right?

Honestly, I'm not sure what his value is to the Texans. Like Vinny ( I think) said, Quin's an average joe as a player that might have decent coverage skills. It's just the fact that Manning and Quin have been the best Safety's we've had here that is raising Quin's worth to the fans.

I want Quin back, but surely not for the 6.9 tag amount. I might put a 3.5-4.5 value on him. What do you think?
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Old 03-05-2013   #45
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

I guess the question is can we get starters for safety, OLB and WR2 in first four selections, if needed? You know by my post combine mock that I believe we can.
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Old 03-05-2013   #46
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
I guess the question is can we get starters for safety, OLB and WR2 in first four selections, if needed? You know by my post combine mock that I believe we can.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Quin, Casey and/or Barwin test free agency only to come back to the Texans. Chris Myers did this last year and got a good deal from us while threatening to go to the Titans. It happens every year, and sometimes the Texans are the team hosting the guy that's trying to get more money from his old team.

I'm really glad that the NFL does free agency well before the draft, unlike the NBA. I think it makes a lot of sense, because it's much easier to fill holes through the draft than trying your luck in free agency.
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Old 03-05-2013   #47
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Quin, Casey and/or Barwin test free agency only to come back to the Texans. Chris Myers did this last year and got a good deal from us while threatening to go to the Titans. It happens every year, and sometimes the Texans are the team hosting the guy that's trying to get more money from his old team.

I'm really glad that the NFL does free agency well before the draft, unlike the NBA. I think it makes a lot of sense, because it's much easier to fill holes through the draft than trying your luck in free agency.
I hope we can retain at least Quin and Casey. Getting quality safety play is not easy and is often what separates good from great defenses, so losing Quin would be a big loss to the team and would create perhaps the team's largest void.
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Old 03-05-2013   #48
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
I hope we can retain at least Quin and Casey. Getting quality safety play is not easy and is often what separates good from great defenses, so losing Quin would be a big loss to the team and would create perhaps the team's largest void.
I think we will retain Quin, as I don't think he has much value around the league. He's not exactly a plug-and-play safety that fits all schemes. I think his value will be limited and his market small, but it only takes 1 team to bid up the price against us. I'm hoping we get him for about 3 million a year at most. He's a good player, but not great, and I can't see him making more money than Manning.

Casey I think deserves the minimum. He's easily replaceable through the draft if some other team thinks he's worth anything more than that. I don't really see him finding a new home as a TE, and certainly not as a FB. We really need a TE that can block well, so I would be happy to replace Casey with Delanie Walker if he's not too expensive. We can find a UDFA fullback if need be.

Barwin will be tricky. He had one good season and one bad season, so I don't know what his market value will be. I suspect he will get between 3-5 million a year with low guaranteed money. He's still young and can develop more, so I could see a rebuilding team making a bid for him that we can't afford to match.
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Old 03-05-2013   #49
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

As Barwin has allegedly offered to sign a one year deal to show he can do better than '12, I wonder why Texans have not moved on that?
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Old 03-05-2013   #50
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I think we will retain Quin, as I don't think he has much value around the league. He's not exactly a plug-and-play safety that fits all schemes.
If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.
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Old 03-05-2013   #51
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
As Barwin has allegedly offered to sign a one year deal to show he can do better than '12, I wonder why Texans have not moved on that?
I'm sure they have.

He didn't say he'll sign any one year deal. I'm sure it would have to be right before he takes it.

If I'm Rick Smith, I'm using that as my leverage to get him to sign before March 12th. A one year deal is on the table, until March 12th. Then it's gone. He can sign it & try to earn a better contract in the future, either with our team or another.

After March 12th, he'll have to try to convince another team to give him a one year deal if he can't find one to offer him the big time pass rusher contract.

I want him to stay, but for a very reasonable Texans friendly deal, or a slightly rich one year deal. Other than that..... he's welcome to do what's best for him.
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Old 03-05-2013   #52
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.
Sure, and guess how much money Pollard got from the Ravens. 4 years 10.25 million, for an average of $2,562,500 a year.

Is Quin worth considerably more than that around the league? I don't think so, which is why I think 3-4 million a year for him is a decent number. I seriously doubt we are going to see the Bengals or some other crap team swoop in and offer him something crazy like 4 years 25-30 million.
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Old 03-05-2013   #53
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by tru80texan View Post
Injuries are part of the game & every team deals w/ them. Weak excuse, but so be it. If you think this team wouldn't have been better off w/ Ryans manning the middle w/ whomever else was available as opposed to James manning the middle w/ the fillers...well I question your judgement. Ryans next to Cushing was the better option & Ryans manning the middle when Cushing went down would've been a much better option then what we dealt with. Plain & simple. James was hardly an adequate replacement for Ryans & ultimately losing Ryans made that position weaker & area of need.

Winston was better then Newton & Butler. Once again, denying that fact would call your judgement into question. Newton is still young & could develop into a good player, but he had his issues & was not on Winston's level. When you consider that Winston's salary was in the same range that Briesel & Myers are earning then he wasn't exactly breaking the bank. It seemed he was getting paid a fair amount.
You act like there was an option for keeping everyone, you make judgements on what you've seen and what you think you can lose. The OL and LB cores were one of the strenghts of the team so if you had to lose something you could lose a bit there and then pick up.

Did I hate to lose Ryans, absolutely he was my favorite Texan, but I understood that his what 6.6 or so million dollary contract was a lot for us to cover, along with another 5.5 or so from Eric Winston. I personally would have liked to keep both but the numbers just didn't work.

Simply denying the fact we had salary cap issues, makes me call your judgement into question, it's not fantasy land we can't have it all. We are making tough decisions and it just didn't quite work out for us, will it this year? I dunno we still have Matt to get sorted out
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Old 03-05-2013   #54
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Those players lost last season obviously meant more to the team then many believed & we learned that the hard way as those positions struggled & now many feel they are needs. I understand that Winston & Ryans were let go because of salary cap issues, but once again those issues were Smith's doing & are still hurting this team w/ the loss of key players & the potential loss of more.

I hope you are right concerning Quin & how Smith views & values him, but I truly have my doubts in what Smith is capable of. Time will tell...
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I disagree on the production going downhill concerning Ryans. His production decline early in 2011 was because he was still recovering IMO. His production picked towards the end of the season & that was acknowledged by Kubiak as well as others. Assuming Ryans production wasn't going to be effected to some degree 1 year removed from an Achilles injury in pure foolishness IMO. Holding that against him is hardly fair or an accurate judgement of Ryans abilities. Ryans rebounded very well this season & looked like his old self & it seems the new regime in Philly feel Ryans is very much capable of playing in the 3-4. I tend to believe them. The myth that Ryans wasn't suited for the 3-4 was generated by most of the same folks that foolishly assumed that James could easily replace him. I think they were obviously wrong on James as a replacement & will ultimately be wrong on what Ryans is capable of in a 3-4 scheme. Ryans was making too much for only being a 2 down LB, but that's what happens when a player starts next to the likes of Cushing in Wade's scheme. The better player stays on the field, but Ryans is still very good in his own right & claiming his production is down seems to be completely false considering his production just this past season. The numbers speak for themselves.

As far as Winston, his production may have been slipping some as a Texan but he too performed well for is new team as it seems the Texans misjudged the talent level of Butler & Newton. I admit I thought Butler could possibly fill the void, but that didn't happen & I was wrong just as they were. Once again the salary cap is a beast that was created by Smith & he has yet to tame it & it is costing the Texans quality players in the process.

I do agree that Winston & Ryans may have needed to go because of salary cap numbers, but not because of their production. They are both still quality players that are better then what we currently have at their positions & money was the reason they are no longer here & that is easily proven w/ the production this past season.
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Injuries hurt us, not the loss of Ryans at the ILB position. As far as Winston he was a better run blocker, but think we broke even on the pass blocking. Longer term we'll be ok without that much tied up into a RT position.
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You act like there was an option for keeping everyone, you make judgements on what you've seen and what you think you can lose. The OL and LB cores were one of the strenghts of the team so if you had to lose something you could lose a bit there and then pick up.

Did I hate to lose Ryans, absolutely he was my favorite Texan, but I understood that his what 6.6 or so million dollary contract was a lot for us to cover, along with another 5.5 or so from Eric Winston. I personally would have liked to keep both but the numbers just didn't work.

Simply denying the fact we had salary cap issues, makes me call your judgement into question, it's not fantasy land we can't have it all. We are making tough decisions and it just didn't quite work out for us, will it this year? I dunno we still have Matt to get sorted out
Read my past posts carefully & you will see I am well aware of the fact that the salary cap was an issue & the reason why I felt Winston & Ryans were moved. I'm not in denial about that fact despite you overlooking what I've have stated. You can also see that I laid that blame squarely at the feet of Rick Smith because he created the cap nightmare & continues to lose quality players in the process. I understand you can't keep them all, but we are having issues just keeping a few to be frank. Im not too impressed w/ the job he has done & depleting the o-line & LB position was far from a smart move. Im not sure how you considered those positions a strength at once when outside of the starters there was obviously not much depth to step in & take over for the players lost. That's not much of a strength IMO.

My reply to you stemmed from what seemed to be your denial that Smith's cap management, or mismanagement, was what ultimately lead to the Texans woes & not just injuries as you implied. I too am not sure it will work out this season as it seems we are possibly going to lose yet some more starters & once again it's because of salary cap woes that surely were not helped w/ Smith's decision to re-sign Schaub who just may no be the answer but a problem. Time will tell...
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Old 03-05-2013   #55
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Sure, and guess how much money Pollard got from the Ravens. 4 years 10.25 million, for an average of $2,562,500 a year.

Is Quin worth considerably more than that around the league? I don't think so, which is why I think 3-4 million a year for him is a decent number. I seriously doubt we are going to see the Bengals or some other crap team swoop in and offer him something crazy like 4 years 25-30 million.
Hey... I don't want to franchise him either, I'm expecting the same $3-4M/yr you are. $5M would be a stretch.....

However, if I'm the F.O. & I'm thinking we've got a window here, I don't think I would be able to easily replace him.

I said in another thread I'd be willing to acquire a safety in the first if the opportunity arises. I'm mainly looking at Manning & 2014.... basically the same situation. I don't think he's worth $5M/yr anymore than Quin is.
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Old 03-05-2013   #56
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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I could name about half the league in guys I'd prefer but he's a good player. I also mean that there is nothing wrong with being just "good". He's a slot above JAG (just a guy) and a notch below the top tier players. "Starting caliber" player but isn't a ball hawk, doesn't have elite range or instincts, but does just about everything fairly well. I consider him above average in man coverage (unless covering very speedy wrs). Decent vs the run, but I think took some bad angles last year at times.
Pretty accurate assessment Vinny. I would say Quinn doesn't really excel at one certain thing, but he's solid all around and fits well with what Wade does. Very versatile with his background at CB the first two years in the league.

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If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.
Pollard lack true range as a safety, but makes up for it being a more classic in the box safety and fits well into that role only. Reminds me a lot of Roy Williams from OU that played for the Cowboys.

I don't think Quinn is going to have a high FA market value, he's not an elite FS and doesn't hit hard enough to be a in the box safety like Pollard.

My biggest fear with losing Quinn is that the team won't really address the position in the draft or via FA. Looking past Quinn we've got Demps and Keo. They look bad enough when rotated into the defense, I almost puke at the though of either starting.

Barwin is likely gone. I wouldn't be surprised to see him picked up by Pats, they seemed high on him when we drafted him.

I did like what I saw from Merciless when he got reps later in the season, full-time starter? Still not too sure.
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Old 03-05-2013   #57
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by tru80texan View Post
When you consider that Winston's salary was in the same range that Briesel & Myers are earning then he wasn't exactly breaking the bank. It seemed he was getting paid a fair amount.
If I remember right, we were paying Winston $5M/yr. I didn't think he was worth it. I don't think he is worth it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiefs manage to acquire Joekel, & replace Winston.

I don't understand how we're going to say Winston played well in KC, because Jamaal Charles (from Port Arthur, Texas) ran for 85 more yards than Arian did. Or that the Chiefs gave up 40 sacks & we gave up 28. & that's with Newton (a first time starter) playing next to a rookie. But he's not in Winston's class? I admit I didn't watch Winston in KC, but I know how he played.

Winston was what? A 6th year player & most likely led the team in false starts. He's a fine pass protecter when going against your powerful strongside DEs (like a Mario Williams) but against a quicker, Freeny type, or a quick/explosive guy like Clay Matthews, he's like a wet paper sack. On the playside of a run..... I don't know there's a better tackle save maybe DBrown76. On the backside, lots of room for improvement. He didn't flat out suck.. but nowhere near where he should be.

We had/have cap issues, because we paid players more than we should have. We should have parted ways with Winston after 2010. We should not have franchised Dunta. Antonio Smith, imo, only started earning his money since Wade got here. Wade Smith... great first season, but the last couple... way over paid. & yeah.... $16M+ or whatever we paid Mario in 2011. Not very bright.
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Old 03-05-2013   #58
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
If I remember right, we were paying Winston $5M/yr. I didn't think he was worth it. I don't think he is worth it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiefs manage to acquire Joekel, & replace Winston.

I don't understand how we're going to say Winston played well in KC, because Jamaal Charles (from Port Arthur, Texas) ran for 85 more yards than Arian did. Or that the Chiefs gave up 40 sacks & we gave up 28. & that's with Newton (a first time starter) playing next to a rookie. But he's not in Winston's class? I admit I didn't watch Winston in KC, but I know how he played.

Winston was what? A 6th year player & most likely led the team in false starts. He's a fine pass protecter when going against your powerful strongside DEs (like a Mario Williams) but against a quicker, Freeny type, or a quick/explosive guy like Clay Matthews, he's like a wet paper sack. On the playside of a run..... I don't know there's a better tackle save maybe DBrown76. On the backside, lots of room for improvement. He didn't flat out suck.. but nowhere near where he should be.

We had/have cap issues, because we paid players more than we should have. We should have parted ways with Winston after 2010. We should not have franchised Dunta. Antonio Smith, imo, only started earning his money since Wade got here. Wade Smith... great first season, but the last couple... way over paid. & yeah.... $16M+ or whatever we paid Mario in 2011. Not very bright.
If I recall correctly Winston was making roughly $5M, which is what was used to sign Myers once Winston was cut.

As far as how Winston performed this past season, I havent read anything that said he didn't play well this season. You mention Charles' accomplishments which says a lot when you consider they had slim to no passing attack w/ a mediocre qb & yet Charles & the o-line still had success. You mention the sack total, but that is hardly a true reflection of how well Winston performed on an individual level. That total sack number could easily be because of the other o-lineman or poor qb play as most of us know since Carr was one of the biggest culprits in taking sacks that he didn't need to take. Regardless, Winston may have not been one of the best, but he wasn't necessarily being paid like one either. As it stands, most could easily say Winston is the better option compared to Newton. That could change in the future.

Couldn't agree more on some of Smith's questionable moves & to be honest he isn't doing much this offseason to change my mind. I personally will be highly upset if this team allows a quality player such as Quin walk away & Walter remains. Walter's $3.5M could easily offset what Quin could end up making & Quin has quite a bit more to offer this team in terms of ability & youth IMO. Keeping an overpaid underperforming wr while letting youth & potential walk away would show Smith's incompetence yet again IMO. We will see...
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Old 03-05-2013   #59
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Quin, Casey and/or Barwin test free agency only to come back to the Texans. Chris Myers did this last year and got a good deal from us while threatening to go to the Titans. It happens every year, and sometimes the Texans are the team hosting the guy that's trying to get more money from his old team.

I'm really glad that the NFL does free agency well before the draft, unlike the NBA. I think it makes a lot of sense, because it's much easier to fill holes through the draft than trying your luck in free agency.
If FA was after the draft you would know what holes were on your team and those holes would be filled in FA. The market for FA's would be different too.

However, if FA were done last GM's would be under more pressure and I would hate to think about how Rick would respond under the gun.
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Old 03-05-2013   #60
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Default Re: Franchise deadline almost here

The more I look at FA and the draft the more I think Quin will be back. Lots of good options will drive down the market.

Barwin on the other hand probably is gone.
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