Texans #2 WR position

[b0ng]

Originally Posted by ckhouston

Doesn't pass the eye test.

Anyone who watches the games cant say that with a straight face.

I will let others have their stats ... I prefer to watch the games.

"I will never change my mind about this no matter how many facts or stats are presented to me because changing my mind is hard."

[steelbtexan]

Originally Posted by TexanSam

Are there any tight ends in this draft who have amazing potential? I don't think our 2nd best receiving option necessarily has to be a wide receiver. We definitely need one since AJ only has a few years left in his prime, but in the short term if a TE is a better option in the draft than a WR then maybe the Texans would go that route? OD, Casey, and Graham are all okay but all are replaceable if someone better is available I think.

Gavin Escobar is a name to keep in mind. 6'5 really good speed/hands, good route runner, not a good run blocker.

[sandman]

Originally Posted by ckhouston

The game that probably ended our season was the Viking game at home which we lost that could have given us home field throughout. If we would have been here playing the Patriots it could have been a different outcome.

The Green Bay game probably ended our season because we could have gone into the New England game undefeated and walked away with a bigger cushion even if we lost.

The New England game probably ended our season because it gave us only a one game lead in the conference with New England holding the tie breaker against us.

The Indianapolis game probably ended our season because we owned the tie breaker against the Broncos and could have had a first round bye.

So basically, every loss we had in the regular season probably ended our season...

[Brisco_County]

One thing is certain, the prospective WR#2 won't ever be Posey. I love his upside and work ethic, but the fact that he wore patella braces throughout college was a sign that his Achilles injury was probably destined.

So where do we draft a receiver? Well, we also need a nose tackle, since Cody will either be cut or won't be in shape by preseason. Since the loss of Posey has only been an opportunity cost, the receiving talent has not regressed. But losing Cody will pose regression, so I think NT will be #1, and WR #2.

[Wolf6151]

Originally Posted by Brisco_County

One thing is certain, the prospective WR#2 won't ever be Posey. I love his upside and work ethic, but the fact that he wore patella braces throughout college was a sign that his Achilles injury was probably destined.

So where do we draft a receiver? Well, we also need a nose tackle, since Cody will either be cut or won't be in shape by preseason. Since the loss of Posey has only been an opportunity cost, the receiving talent has not regressed. But losing Cody will pose regression, so I think NT will be #1, and WR #2.

I agree, although WR is a huge need, NT is a bigger need. Cody will be gone in FA and Mitchell can't handle the position by himself. Also having a better NT lessens the need at ILB as well. WR would then be our 2nd round pick and with all the extra comp. picks we should have coming to us, trading up in the 2nd to get a really good WR would be very possible and plausible. Of course all of this is dependent on who is available to us at #27. A slight trade down from #27 to the top of the 2nd round might be an option to consider as well depending on who's available.

[leebigeztx]

When I spoke to Pat Kirwan on sirius,he said texans had 9m in cap room. 9m of cap room and a very good deep wr draft is plenty to fill holes and get better. The texans can fill the nt spot with terrance knighton or sammy lee hill for cody money. That would allow them to attack the draft and fill holes. I would draft Williams from Baylor or Hunter from Tenn at bottom 1st. If they wait, they can get patton in 2nd or King in 3rd. They could also gamble and get rodgers in the 3rd. He might be the most physically gifted wr in the draft,but he busted a weed test and was kicked off the squad.

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by badboy

I don't think he got a signing (upfront) bonus that was prorated. He gets an annual $1m but seems either roster or performance based. IMO based on known info there is no bonus to move up if cut. There should be a true $4.5m cap savings.

From where is that info coming from? Walter had $11 million in guaranteed money. That was in a $5 million bonus and the first 2 seasons salaries ($6 million total). The salaries have been received, but that bonus didn't hit the cap in one year. There would be $2 million in dead money if Walter is released. If Walter is cut, it's a savings of $1.5 million.

If Walter again agrees to a salary reduction to $2 million,his cap number shrinks to $3 million. Thus, there would only be a $1 million difference in keeping Walter. If that's the case, the Texans would likely keep him. Here's what Kubiak had to say about Walter when he signed the contract:

“You can’t have enough Kevin Walters on your team,” Kubiak said. “He stands for everything we are. He’s a great kid, a hard worker, a player who does everything right on and off the field.

Even if the Texans sign a FA WR and draft another WR early, Walter likely stays. They won't keep a Lestar Jean over Walter for a cap savings of $500K. And it's very unlikely that Posey makes it on the field in 2013. Even as a 4th WR, I think Kubiak will keep Walter.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by Lucky

From where is that info coming from? Walter had $11 million in guaranteed money. That was in a $5 million bonus and the first 2 seasons salaries ($6 million total). The salaries have been received, but that bonus didn't hit the cap in one year. There would be $2 million in dead money if Walter is released. If Walter is cut, it's a savings of $1.5 million.

If Walter again agrees to a salary reduction to $2 million,his cap number shrinks to $3 million. Thus, there would only be a $1 million difference in keeping Walter. If that's the case, the Texans would likely keep him. Here's what Kubiak had to say about Walter when he signed the contract:

Even if the Texans sign a FA WR and draft another WR early, Walter likely stays. They won't keep a Lestar Jean over Walter for a cap savings of $500K. And it's very unlikely that Posey makes it on the field in 2013. Even as a 4th WR, I think Kubiak will keep Walter.

While I understand that there isn't a huge savings if Walter is cut, in the end its a savings that is needed. That 1.5M could help fill holes when you consider that Cody was roughly playing for that amount. So starting players can be had for that savings. I don't see the Texans paying a #3 or #4 wr 2M for the yr. That is dumb business & a waste to be honest. I believe they are simply taking too much heat now for not properly addressing the need & now the owner is even on the bandwagon to get a true #2 wr. Which I must admit I'm elated to see. When the owner speaks I'm sure the employees, kubiak & the FO, will take note & listen.

I also don't see the Texans giving up on Jean who has shown signs of potential to keep a player who is obviously past his prime & costing this team more money then he's worth. You simply don't dump cheap potential to keep a player who is in decline & overpaid imo. I know you don't think the savings is much, but its pretty obvious w/ the salary cap every penny counts & Walter is eating up valuable cap space.

As far as what kubiak had to say about Walter, was anything less expected? The running joke is that kubiak has a "man crush" on Walter which is why he refuses to replace him & honestly how many times has anyone seen a coach speak negatively about a player they just resigned? It simply won't happen & I'm sure if we dig deep enough we could find kubiak speaking highly of Jacoby after extending him & then he eventually cut him. Talking the player up & then eventually cutting them is hardly a new concept.

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

While I understand that there isn't a huge savings if Walter is cut, in the end its a savings that is needed. That 1.5M could help fill holes when you consider that Cody was roughly playing for that amount. So starting players can be had for that savings.

Cody's cap number in 2012 was $3 million not $1.5. And you misconstrued pretty much every other number I posted. Lestar Jean and his potential have accumulated 6 receptions in 2 years. There's not a doubt in my mind that Kubiak would keep Walter over Jean if the number is close.

[b0ng]

Originally Posted by Wolf6151

I agree, although WR is a huge need, NT is a bigger need. Cody will be gone in FA and Mitchell can't handle the position by himself. Also having a better NT lessens the need at ILB as well. WR would then be our 2nd round pick and with all the extra comp. picks we should have coming to us, trading up in the 2nd to get a really good WR would be very possible and plausible. Of course all of this is dependent on who is available to us at #27. A slight trade down from #27 to the top of the 2nd round might be an option to consider as well depending on who's available.

If the Texans used an NT in their nickle and dime sets I could see NT being a bigger need, but we don't, and I can't imagine that they think it's 1st round need unless there's a guy there they thought wouldn't be available.

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by Lucky

Cody's cap number in 2012 was $3 million not $1.5. And you misconstrued pretty much every other number I posted. Lestar Jean and his potential have accumulated 6 receptions in 2 years. There's not a doubt in my mind that Kubiak would keep Walter over Jean if the number is close.

And that is the problem and what tru80 is most likely trying to point out. A head coach must make this tough decision and sometimes step outside of his safety box, the status quo, to do something to take his team to another level. Hanging onto Walter takes away snaps and time from the younger receivers. Yeah, Jean barely did much in receiving. He also barely saw the field (105 passing plays to be exact, lowest of all WR's). Who do you think also gets majority snaps in practice? Won't be the young guys if they are barely seeing the field in the game.

If he continues to hold onto Walter he either:

A. Needs to push him down the depth chart and keep him there. In other words, resist the temptation to not turn to him and leaving younger players standing and not engaged.

B. Continues with the status quo where we get a #2 who needs to be schemed to get open too often, can't get even average YAC, and leaves us with only one viable threat from 15+ yards.

The WR position needs to be developed and he has not shown the ability to see that it gets done with Walter around. Will he if he finally pushes the guy to where he should be as a #3 or (in my real opinion) #4? We can't say for certain but past experience tells us no though he seemed to come close toward the end of the season with Posey. Then he turned around and reverted back to Walter in the playoffs who had the worst receiving numbers of everyone during that time. Well, until he realized he needed to spread the field against the Pats and put Posey in and what happens? We get down the field.

Either way this position actually needs to start moving forward except for churning in the mud like it continues to do.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by b0ng

If the Texans used an NT in their nickle and dime sets I could see NT being a bigger need, but we don't, and I can't imagine that they think it's 1st round need unless there's a guy there they thought wouldn't be available.

That's a big catch 22. I'm not a big proponent of using a high draft pick (1-3 rounds) on a NT. But if we had a better NT (Ngata, Raji, Wilfork) he'd be on the field on 3rd down. That would allow us to cut Antonio Smith if you're inclined to do so (I'm not, he's had helluvah years back to back & if not for Jj Watt, there'd be more talk about him).

But, the point is we don't use our NT in passing situations because we have Antonio Smith & Shuan Cody. If we had a Ngata type, Smith's snaps would be reduced as he'd probably rotate in & out.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by Brisco_County

One thing is certain, the prospective WR#2 won't ever be Posey. I love his upside and work ethic, but the fact that he wore patella braces throughout college was a sign that his Achilles injury was probably destined.

So where do we draft a receiver? Well, we also need a nose tackle, since Cody will either be cut or won't be in shape by preseason. Since the loss of Posey has only been an opportunity cost, the receiving talent has not regressed. But losing Cody will pose regression, so I think NT will be #1, and WR #2.

Although I agree with you & Wolfe about NT (see my precombine mock), I think it is highly possible, Ric Smith will go for a cheap vet in free agency. I am focusing on Barwin negotiations as off season progresses. If they have not completed a deal or moved on (ala Mario Williams) by draft, I could see another OLB in round one.

To your question on WR, I go in third round as my eliminating roster income allows us to go after a prime WR2 FA.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by Lucky

From where is that info coming from? Walter had $11 million in guaranteed money. That was in a $5 million bonus and the first 2 seasons salaries ($6 million total). The salaries have been received, but that bonus didn't hit the cap in one year. There would be $2 million in dead money if Walter is released. If Walter is cut, it's a savings of $1.5 million.

If Walter again agrees to a salary reduction to $2 million,his cap number shrinks to $3 million. Thus, there would only be a $1 million difference in keeping Walter. If that's the case, the Texans would likely keep him. Here's what Kubiak had to say about Walter when he signed the contract:

Even if the Texans sign a FA WR and draft another WR early, Walter likely stays. They won't keep a Lestar Jean over Walter for a cap savings of $500K. And it's very unlikely that Posey makes it on the field in 2013. Even as a 4th WR, I think Kubiak will keep Walter.

I got it from here : http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/kevin-walter/

He has received his guaranteed money of $11m: 2010 $3m base + $1m roster; 2011 same ($4m); 2012 reduced salary to $2m + $1m roster or total $11m guaranteed & paid. His roster bonus in '13 &'14 should not be counted against cap imo as not guaranteed or upfront bonus. I don't think it would be dead money as he had to make roster to receive.

After 76 pointed out site does say $5m roster earned year one, I stand corrected.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by Lucky

Cody's cap number in 2012 was $3 million not $1.5. And you misconstrued pretty much every other number I posted. Lestar Jean and his potential have accumulated 6 receptions in 2 years. There's not a doubt in my mind that Kubiak would keep Walter over Jean if the number is close.

I'm not arguing for Jean or over Walter but Lestar's 6 catches were for 151 yds & 25.2 per. That + his age may give him an edge, especially if Smith gets a WR2 vet.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by badboy

I got it from here : http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/kevin-walter/

He has received his guaranteed money of $11m: 2010 $3m base + $1m roster; 2011 same ($4m); 2012 reduced salary to $2m + $1m roster or total $11m guaranteed & paid. His roster bonus in '13 &'14 should not be counted against cap imo as not guaranteed or upfront bonus. I don't think it would be dead money as he had to make roster to receive.

BB, it reads "First year roster bonus $5M".

It looks to me he already got that $5M in his pocket; therefore, there will be $2M in dead money if Walter is cut.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by Lucky

Cody's cap number in 2012 was $3 million not $1.5. And you misconstrued pretty much every other number I posted. Lestar Jean and his potential have accumulated 6 receptions in 2 years. There's not a doubt in my mind that Kubiak would keep Walter over Jean if the number is close.

I don't think I misconstrued anything, I simply stated, as did you, that cutting Walter leads to some savings regardless of if its perceived as small or large it is ultimately money saved that could be easily used to UPGRADE the team as opposed to remaining status quo. Status quo is obviously not progression for a position that has needed an infusion of youth & potential for quite some time. Walter is not the answer nor does he seem to have much more to offer or progress, so, imo, its simply time to take the savings his salary has to offer & allow the younger wr's a TRUE opportunity to get on the field & progress as opposed to being stuck behind a wr who is on the decline.

As far as Jean, I think your portrayal of his stats & potential is quite a bit skewed & unfair to be frank because as most of us know he was placed on the IR for his entire rookie season & he suffered a knee injury in his 2nd season that obviously contributed to his lack of production due to recovery. Omitting those factors & acting as if they don't matter or worth noting hardly paints an accurate or true picture of what Jean is potentially capable of. It's not as if he played & simply disappeared in games similar to Walter is known for. Once again, a player needs an opportunity to prove worth & that is something that is limited w/ Walter in the way. Jean, Martin, & Posey have yet be given that luxury & I would hope, I say that w/ some doubt, that Kubiak would be smart enough keep young cheap potential as opposed to an overpaid vet who is past prime. "Hope" is the key word.

Side note, I was referring to Cody's salary & not his cap number. I was simply showing that a starting players salary could be easily paid for w/ the savings the Texans could be getting by cutting Walter. It's seems to be a small amount, but once again every penny counts when you are trying to progress as a team imo.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by badboy

I got it from here : http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/kevin-walter/

He has received his guaranteed money of $11m: 2010 $3m base + $1m roster; 2011 same ($4m); 2012 reduced salary to $2m + $1m roster or total $11m guaranteed & paid. His roster bonus in '13 &'14 should not be counted against cap imo as not guaranteed or upfront bonus. I don't think it would be dead money as he had to make roster to receive.

I have read & my understanding is that Walter could be cut this season withOUT any hit to the salary cap. I don't have a link & would need to research it again, but that was my belief & it somewhat seems that is yours as well if I'm understanding your post correctly. Don't want to misconstrued anything. LOL! JK. Honestly, I think any savings is better then retaining Walter & believe it is simply time to move on.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

BB, it reads "First year roster bonus $5M".

It looks to me he already got that $5M in his pocket; therefore, there will be $2M in dead money if Walter is cut.

Looks like I'm wrong but as site shows it as a roster & prorated I thought it had to be paid each year if he made team. It does say "first year" so he evidently got it already.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

I have read & my understanding is that Walter could be cut this season withOUT any hit to the salary cap. I don't have a link & would need to research it again, but that was my belief & it somewhat seems that is yours as well if I'm understanding your post correctly. Don't want to misconstrued anything. LOL! JK. Honestly, I think any savings is better then retaining Walter & believe it is simply time to move on.

Go to link posted http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/kevin-walter/


and look lower left hand margin and it states his roster bonus of $5m being paid and 2012 salary reduction. This is what Lucky & I are discussing. I thought if a player got an upfront roster bonus it could not be prorated. As his seems to be prorated, it must work as does a regular signing bonus. Not sure why Texans differentiated it as roster rather than signing.