What I am looking at, feedback appreciated

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by mussop

Let me guess, McLaim?

As many picks & FAs we've brought in to play DE or DT or OLB, compared to the number of NTs we've brought in makes me believe NT is not high on the Texans list of wants.

I understand & agree that we need "better" more "traditional" play from the position, but the Texans appear to be getting what they want from the guys they've got. I don't understand it. I've been trying to make sense of it, but have come up short.

But I would be surprised if we take a NT early in this draft. AAMoF, I wouldn't be surprised to see more of Crick at NT with Jamison returning.

[Wolf6151]

Originally Posted by badboy

Uh, oh..I am hearing that Texans are good with Mitchell starting at NT and would pick up either a cheap FA vet or DT 4th round or later (or both). Hard for me to accept that but if I take that as a fact then try to defend it, I'd say Mitchell did look much better at end of season. NTs are moving up boards and Texans may want to use top four picks for other positions. Also, Texans have not had a 'get to the passer' Nose and made it to playoffs. WR seems to be either a first or second and if Quin is not signed, a safety becomes a top 4 need.

I've been getting this feeling as well through things I've heard and read, nothing specific, but just putting 2 and 2 together. I sure hope we're wrong. Mitchell did play well toward the end of last season but it's not enough to hang your hat on and say he's a day 1 starter. Also this is a very deep DT class with some very good quality in the early rounds as well and the Texans would be fools to not take advantage of what the draft gives you. I think WR and NT are the 2 biggest needs even if we do lose Quin to FA. I think Safety/CB then becomes a 3rd round need.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by Wolf6151

I've been getting this feeling as well through things I've heard and read, nothing specific, but just putting 2 and 2 together. I sure hope we're wrong. Mitchell did play well toward the end of last season but it's not enough to hang your hat on and say he's a day 1 starter. Also this is a very deep DT class with some very good quality in the early rounds as well and the Texans would be fools to not take advantage of what the draft gives you. I think WR and NT are the 2 biggest needs even if we do lose Quin to FA. I think Safety/CB then becomes a 3rd round need.

Start a rookie at Nose, ILB and safety?

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by badboy

Start a rookie at Nose, ILB and safety?

Doubtful at all 3, but I could see 2 of the 3. I've mentioned in the past that I dont think the Texans will select NT or RT w/ the 1st pick. I can't see them giving up on Newton to go w/ a rookie after just 1 season. It takes Kubiak a bit longer then most to learn a lesson or figure out something isn't working out. That's why Marciano is still on the staff, why McNair had to hire Wade, & why they are finally looking at getting a decent wr to replace Walter. I do agree 1 year doesn't tell the tale on Newton, but there doesn't seem to be much of a backup plan if he continues to struggle.

As far as Mitchell, Wade likes the smaller NT's & if he insisted on starting Cody, who was virtually ineffective, why wouldn't we believe that he wouldn't be statisfied w/ starting Mitchell who, IMO, has more to offer then Cody. They may draft someone late to backup Mitchell & rotate w/ him, but I don't see a 1st round pick on the position in the cards. The owner has spoken & I expect them to listen w/ it either being a WR, LB, & now possibly a S if Quin is allowed to walk.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

As many picks & FAs we've brought in to play DE or DT or OLB, compared to the number of NTs we've brought in makes me believe NT is not high on the Texans list of wants.

I understand & agree that we need "better" more "traditional" play from the position, but the Texans appear to be getting what they want from the guys they've got. I don't understand it. I've been trying to make sense of it, but have come up short.

But I would be surprised if we take a NT early in this draft. AAMoF, I wouldn't be surprised to see more of Crick at NT with Jamison returning.

I agree that NT doesn't seem to be high on their list, but unless Crick gains 10-15lbs i can't see him being used at NT considering his current weight is listed at the mid 280's. At that weight he's a DE. Unless of course you are referring to those mystery sites that listed Antonio at 295lbs & they too have Crick as weighing more. JK

[badboy]

Starting Mitchel and allowing more work for McClain and the UH kids at nose may be in the cards. I still see a cheap FA being signed.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

Unless of course you are referring to those mystery sites that listed Antonio at 295lbs & they too have Crick as weighing more. JK

[mussop]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

As far as Mitchell, Wade likes the smaller NT's & if he insisted on starting Cody, who was virtually ineffective, why wouldn't we believe that he wouldn't be statisfied w/ starting Mitchell who, IMO, has more to offer then Cody. They may draft someone late to backup Mitchell & rotate w/ him, but I don't see a 1st round pick on the position in the cards. The owner has spoken & I expect them to listen w/ it either being a WR, LB, & now possibly a S if Quin is allowed to walk.

What were his other options?

[76Texan]

BB (and all), where do you see the big guy Jenkins from Georgia at this moment?

What range of the draft?

[Corrosion]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

As far as Mitchell, Wade likes the smaller NT's

Thats about as far from the truth as you can get .... He's said on multiple occasions that he would like to have a big ugly nasty SOB in the middle but he can make do without that guy.

Just take a look at some of the guy's he has had elsewhere .... Some big , some not.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

BB (and all), where do you see the big guy Jenkins from Georgia at this moment?

What range of the draft?

I am sure most have John Jenkins rated higher than me; I know CBS does at high second round. I do not want him for Texans, period. Looking back over my evaluations of him during the season, he just did not appear to be a factor. This from Mayock:

NFL Network's Mike Mayock called Georgia NT John Jenkins' hot-and-cold motor the biggest concern for Jenkins' NFL outlook."When he's healthy, when he's not winded, when he turns that motor on, it's special," Mayock said. "And you want him to be your 3-4 nose tackle or your nose shade in the 4-3. You want this kid as a two-gapping run stuffer. You want him pushing the pocket. But too often, you don't see that." Motor is often a concern for mammoth defensive linemen. Jenkins weighed in at an unruly 6-foot-3 7/8 and 359 pounds this week. Jan 24 - 3:18 PM


76 I do know others rated him high after senior bowl and I evaluated as "FAT, SLOW". I guess if you can convince the opponent to run the play at him, he would be ok. He will go higher but I rate him just above Montori Hughes (skills- not head) in 4th. Another issue is his weight. IIRC, he blossomed up to 370 before dieting. I hope Prisco is correct and he goes #17 and pushes someone down.

[steelbtexan]

Somebody will pick Jenkins in the late 1st early 2nd. I hope it's not the Texans. Jenkins failure to hold up against the run vs Alabama make him a late 2nd/early 3rd if I were drafting.

[76Texan]

I guess playing at 370 lbs against Alabama didn't help, but I thought the rest of the line and the LBs were doing worse.

He still got plenty of production out of that game though; 3 tackles (including a sack), 3 assists, and a QB pressure. That's a lot for a big guy.
And he played something like 55, 56 snaps at that weight; not that I prefer it (the weigh) but it's still noteworthy that he showed some quickness even at that weight, too.

I think I'm putting him somewhere in the mid second round.
He checked in at 356 something at the Senior Bowl and looked pretty good.

Could be a boom or bust here, I think.
If he can manage his weight, I think he'll be quite good; if not, well, we all know what it means.

How did he handle the drills at the combine?
When is his pro day? Late this month?

I think I'll wait until then to finalize my take on him.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by mussop

What were his other options?

Mitchell maybe...let's not act as if Cody was a dominant force that couldn't easily be replaced. Wade has ultimately decided not to have other options & decided Cody & Mitchell were adequate as many of us have hoped for better alternatives since Wade has arrived.

Originally Posted by Corrosion

Thats about as far from the truth as you can get .... He's said on multiple occasions that he would like to have a big ugly nasty SOB in the middle but he can make do without that guy.

Just take a look at some of the guy's he has had elsewhere .... Some big , some not.

And that's exactly what he has done since roughly 2000. His biggest guy was Tank Johnson in Arlington & he weighed around 315lbs. It's been said on multiple occasions by multiple sources that Wade operates w/ the smaller NT's. That seems to be the case for a little over a decade now. I'm sure we can go back 20+ years & find examples that prove your case, BUT Wade's RECENT actions, a decade or less, have shown him to fill his NT position w/ the smaller 300-315lb players as opposed to the 330-360lb monsters some of us have desired.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by badboy

I am sure most have John Jenkins rated higher than me; I know CBS does at high second round. I do not want him for Texans, period. Looking back over my evaluations of him during the season, he just did not appear to be a factor. This from Mayock:

NFL Network's Mike Mayock called Georgia NT John Jenkins' hot-and-cold motor the biggest concern for Jenkins' NFL outlook."When he's healthy, when he's not winded, when he turns that motor on, it's special," Mayock said. "And you want him to be your 3-4 nose tackle or your nose shade in the 4-3. You want this kid as a two-gapping run stuffer. You want him pushing the pocket. But too often, you don't see that." Motor is often a concern for mammoth defensive linemen. Jenkins weighed in at an unruly 6-foot-3 7/8 and 359 pounds this week. Jan 24 - 3:18 PM


76 I do know others rated him high after senior bowl and I evaluated as "FAT, SLOW". I guess if you can convince the opponent to run the play at him, he would be ok. He will go higher but I rate him just above Montori Hughes (skills- not head) in 4th. Another issue is his weight. IIRC, he blossomed up to 370 before dieting. I hope Prisco is correct and he goes #17 and pushes someone down.

I am not a Jenkins fan. He lacks a motor in the worst way & showed it during Senior Bowl practices. He had a few shining moments, but if he wasnt shining he wasn't working at all. I hope he's not on the Texans radar.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

Mitchell maybe...let's not act as if Cody was a dominant force that couldn't easily be replaced. Wade has ultimately decided not to have other options & decided Cody & Mitchell were adequate as many of us have hoped for better alternatives since Wade has arrived.

Cody has been nothing but average. Still he is better than Mitchell. Weade has "decided" not to have other options? How do you know what options Wade has had to choose from? I can only see three.

1.) Cody is a FA and injured. So Wade can go into next season starting a guy who couldn't beat out a very average Cody with hope we pick up a decent rotation player later in the draft or a cheap one in FA. We don't have the money to get a quality one.

2.) Or we can draft a good DT in a deep draft for DT's that can push Mitchell early and get significant minutes and eventually (hopefully sooner than later), take over the starting job and put Mitchell back to second string where he belongs.

3.) See if we can talk a really good veteran (Seymour) to come in and play for cheap for a chance at a championship.

If Wade chooses number one we are going to be taking a step backwards.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by mussop

Cody has been nothing but average. Still he is better than Mitchell. Weade has "decided" not to have other options? How do you know what options Wade has had to choose from? I can only see three.

1.) Cody is a FA and injured. So Wade can go into next season starting a guy who couldn't beat out a very average Cody with hope we pick up a decent rotation player later in the draft or a cheap one in FA. We don't have the money to get a quality one.

2.) Or we can draft a good DT in a deep draft for DT's that can push Mitchell early and get significant minutes and eventually (hopefully sooner than later), take over the starting job and put Mitchell back to second string where he belongs.

3.) See if we can talk a really good veteran (Seymour) to come in and play for cheap for a chance at a championship.

If Wade chooses number one we are going to be taking a step backwards.

Here are some stats from 2012 to ponder:
Mitchell. Cody
Tackles- 31. Tackles- 17
Passes defended-3. Passes defended-2
Forced Fumbles-1. Forced fumbles-0
Games Started- 3. Games Started- 12

Let's see...now which player looks better of the 2.

I think it's pretty obvious Mitchell was the better player despite starting 9 less games. Just because one player isn't starting because they so-called couldn't beat "a very average player" doesn't necessarily mean the best player was on the field IMO. I think Walter is a good example of that as well, so it's not unheard of that a lesser player is named a starter when there are other options who could possibly be better but not necessarily given the opportunity. Cody obviously did less w/ more opportunity & Cody is by far anything, but "average". I think you are using that term very loosely in describing Cody's play. "Mediocre" would probably be a better term for Cody as his backup outperformed him.

How you can claim Cody was better then Mitchell based on the stats is beyond me & quite laughable to be honest. Mitchell is still very young & has shown improvement & yet some how you feel the Texans could be better equipped w/ Cody manning the middle & act as if the Texans are doomed if it's Mitchell ,because he nothing but a backup by your assessment, in the middle despite him outproducing Cody. How can you honestly say a position is taking a step back by finally inserting the player that actually produced more is a bit backwards in the thought process IMO, but to each their own.


I personally feel better w/ Mitchell in the middle, but I will miss Cody's "On the Nose" episodes.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

Here are some stats from 2012 to ponder:
Mitchell. Cody
Tackles- 31. Tackles- 17
Passes defended-3. Passes defended-2
Forced Fumbles-1. Forced fumbles-0
Games Started- 3. Games Started- 12

Let's see...now which player looks better of the 2.

I think it's pretty obvious Mitchell was the better player despite starting 9 less games. Just because one player isn't starting because they so-called couldn't beat "a very average player" doesn't necessarily mean the best player was on the field IMO. I think Walter is a good example of that as well, so it's not unheard of that a lesser player is named a starter when there are other options who could possibly be better but not necessarily given the opportunity. Cody obviously did less w/ more opportunity & Cody is by far anything, but "average". I think you are using that term very loosely in describing Cody's play. "Mediocre" would probably be a better term for Cody as his backup outperformed him.

How you can claim Cody was better then Mitchell based on the stats is beyond me & quite laughable to be honest. Mitchell is still very young & has shown improvement & yet some how you feel the Texans could be better equipped w/ Cody manning the middle & act as if the Texans are doomed if it's Mitchell ,because he nothing but a backup by your assessment, in the middle despite him outproducing Cody. How can you honestly say a position is taking a step back by finally inserting the player that actually produced more is a bit backwards in the thought process IMO, but to each their own.


I personally feel better w/ Mitchell in the middle, but I will miss Cody's "On the Nose" episodes.

Not speaking for Mussop but I think NT is one of those positions that you lean lightly on stats and heavy on watching the plays. IMO, Cody was better than Mitchell even with his back problems until late in season. I think Cody just wore down & was not able to handle too much more pain killer. Question is will Mitchell maintain and improve in '13 what we saw in last few games? We either need a very good NT or an outstanding ILB. Neither will be drafted in first and maybe not second rounds.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by badboy

Not speaking for Mussop but I think NT is one of those positions that you lean lightly on stats and heavy on watching the plays. IMO, Cody was better than Mitchell even with his back problems until late in season. I think Cody just wore down & was not able to handle too much more pain killer. Question is will Mitchell maintain and improve in '13 what we saw in last few games? We either need a very good NT or an outstanding ILB. Neither will be drafted in first and maybe not second rounds.

I actually see this in quite the opposite light. NT is position that is normally tougher to accumulate stats & thus one that is capable of compiling some decent numbers has really done some work fighting on the inside. Mitchell produced the most of the 2 having less playing time. Plain & simple. There were slim to no games that I thought Cody absolutely stood out & was heads & tails above Mitchell & the numbers seem to support that. Now I also knew the injury excuse would rear it's ugly head for Cody, but Mitchell slightly outperformed Cody in 2011 as well, which was only Mitchell's 2nd season. For the last 2 seasons Mitchell has out performed Cody in limited action. Cody has never been a real force & whether he wore down or not is subjective because to be honest Cody's production has been limited for quite some time regardless of his health status, so how would we judge his disappearing act in 2012 when it is all to similar to his performances of years past.

As I said before, I don't think Cody was necessarily the better option. Mitchell has shown improvement though out the years & it will be hard to convince most that the player w/ less playing time & better stats is the worst of the 2 options. I also have a hard time believing that this position will suffer from the statistically better player finally getting the opportunity to play more & thus potentially produce more. That thought process simply doesn't make sense imo. Even if you somehow based your opinion off of what you watched only...it still doesn't say Cody was the better of the 2 IMO. I too watch games, some multiple times, & simply haven't seen Cody as ever being an irreplaceable force in the middle...in fact it always been quite the opposite.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by badboy

Not speaking for Mussop but I think NT is one of those positions that you lean lightly on stats and heavy on watching the plays. IMO, Cody was better than Mitchell even with his back problems until late in season. I think Cody just wore down & was not able to handle too much more pain killer. Question is will Mitchell maintain and improve in '13 what we saw in last few games? We either need a very good NT or an outstanding ILB. Neither will be drafted in first and maybe not second rounds.

It depends on what you want. Mitchell penetrated the line & got off blocks better, which you would think we want. Cody held his ground better, & didn't get pushed around as easily. Which I think bottle necked run plays & freed up the ILBs.