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Old 06-18-2005   #21
ArlingtonTexan
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Originally Posted by Davis37
Its hard to have pocket presence when there isnt a pocket...
No really..the two are more integrated than that. If a Qb drops to far, does not drop far enough, runs to the side, runs too quickly, or does not release the ball when he is supposed then it looks like the OL is not givng him time when the QB is making the mistake.

IM0, the combination of OL's below average pass protection and Carr's average at best pocket presence is the combination that makes the sack total so poor. QBs such Manning and Brady who are above average in thier pocket awareness make their average to slightly above average OLs look a heck of a lot better than they really are.
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Old 06-18-2005   #22
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As far as lack of pocket, it's not all on the o-line. Some QBs, Brady in particular, are very adept at creating space for themselves on mid to deep drops by taking short, quick, jab and shuffle steps to avoid the rush. Carr's first escape/avoidance step is almost always a long stride which severely limits his ability to maneuver through smaller gaps in the rush.

edit: ok, sorry for the redundant post. I stepped away while in the middle of composing this response and in the meantime a couple of others said what needed to be said.

Last edited by aj.; 06-18-2005 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 06-18-2005   #23
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nice... thats pretty interesting... good find
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Old 06-18-2005   #24
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Default Carr the Great

Not only is Carr an improving young quarterback, he has wit. On this Web site, Carr said of his plans for the time off before training camp: I have to go base jumping and sky diving, surfing and riding some motorcycles and then Ill be ready for training camp, Carr said, barely cracking a smile.
Trust me, Browns fans appreciated the jab more than Kellen Wnslow I & II.
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Old 06-18-2005   #25
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The difference between Carr and the players that you named Arlington, none of them have ever shown the heart Carr does. All that you mention have been content to pick up a pay check and play for teams and cities that do the same. You can best believe here in H-Town, that will not happen. We Want A CHAMPIONSHIP, A CHAMPIONSHIP QB, AN OWNER THAT WANTS ONE, AND FANS THAT SUPPORT! Carr has the fire and it shows on Sunday's, problem is, we're still trying to retool an expansion franchise into players that all share the same thoughts of winning. The O-line is slowly getting there, but needs another "nasty" fire guy, and once that happens.......lookout! Don't look at guys that were nothing in college and just so happened to make it to the leauge like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr has been a leader and winner no matter where he went. As for Plummer, bad timing. If he played on a better Bronco team, he wins. He's got guts, but isn't always the smartest player either!
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Old 06-18-2005   #26
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Default Pocket presence....

As for pocket presence, does anyone know what it is like facing a front 7, averaging 275lbs, running a sub 4.8, and breathinng down your neck. NO! If you did, you would be palying or coaching in the NFL. What you see, is not always what you get. Many aspects of the game, affect how a QB or any player for that matter continue play! I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game" Study what the entire offense is doing, not just one player. Did we have a "true" #2 receiver that was capable of being another outlet for Carr.......NO! Was Dominic helathy all year for the team to gel...........No! Did we have a defense that placed us in bad field position often.......yes! Many aspects affect how plays are called, schemes, and how each player is then affected. Take Brady, Manning, Big-Ben, whatever QB that had a good year, and he would not do much better. All the sliding in the pocket in the world was not going to help Carr escape the rush that was coming at him last year. Remember, the more he slides in the pocket, the throwing lanes are decreased in number, and then limits him to one side of the field, rather than staying in the pocket and viewing the entire field. Problem........No lanes to see in when they are being colapsed! Also, the less chance of him being accurate when throwing against his body. Look at howlong Brady and Manning stay in the pocket.....it can seems like decades. Carr's not Vick. Even Farve has a worst percentage outside the pocket, than in!
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Old 06-18-2005   #27
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Originally Posted by pittbull
As for pocket presence, does anyone know what it is like facing a front 7, averaging 275lbs, running a sub 4.8, and breathinng down your neck. NO! If you did, you would be palying or coaching in the NFL. ...

... I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game"
Ok, we're all stupid.

Yay Texans! You're the best! Carr is a Hall of Famer. 16-0 baby!

Is that better?

Why reject legitmate and constructive criticism from people who have watched football closely for dozens of years? Granted most of us have only played through high school or a few years of college ball, but to say that fans can't have an educated opinion about the game just because they haven't played at the highest level is ridiculous. Some of us have been watching football closely since the 60's and I think it's a bit presumptuous to basically tell fans they don't know what they are talking about unless they have played or coached.

Last edited by aj.; 06-18-2005 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 06-18-2005   #28
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Originally Posted by pittbull
The difference between Carr and the players that you named Arlington, none of them have ever shown the heart Carr does. All that you mention have been content to pick up a pay check and play for teams and cities that do the same. You can best believe here in H-Town, that will not happen. We Want A CHAMPIONSHIP, A CHAMPIONSHIP QB, AN OWNER THAT WANTS ONE, AND FANS THAT SUPPORT! Carr has the fire and it shows on Sunday's, problem is, we're still trying to retool an expansion franchise into players that all share the same thoughts of winning. The O-line is slowly getting there, but needs another "nasty" fire guy, and once that happens.......lookout! Don't look at guys that were nothing in college and just so happened to make it to the leauge like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr has been a leader and winner no matter where he went. As for Plummer, bad timing. If he played on a better Bronco team, he wins. He's got guts, but isn't always the smartest player either!
Honestly, I have real no response to this because it is emotional homerism, but I as I am want to do, I will try anyway.

I don't know, but overcoming an average college career to become an above average pro-starter shows a lot of moxie to me. Seriously, there are a ton of players who player there tails off in the NFL whose primary motivation is money. I never have a good handle on who has "heart of a champion" or plays hard because of "money and fame" (see T. Owens, which one for him? looks the same to me)

FWIW, Carr reminds most of Plummer than anyone else in the league. I have stated this repeatedly for about a year now on various boards.

Actually, much of the objective opinion, that I present on this board and other has been forged by my brother-in-law who played in the NFL for 13 years. Especially, the stuff about who is motivated what and who is playing hard. Basically, a ton of the "heart and guts" are frauds and show boats like Sanders and Irwin are often the hardest working people on the field.
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Old 06-18-2005   #29
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... I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game"
of course thats what they will say. Thats what I would say too if I was a player getting shredded on a message board.

How many of those players actually spend enough time on a message board to get to know the posters and actually see how much knowledge they have?

100 bucks says that 99.9999999999% of them.. if they even looked at a message board before.. only looked at it long enough to read the negative posts by the 15 year old *****s.. and based their entire opinion on that.

I agree with aj. Some people have been following the game for years.. they may not understand every single nuance of the game from the inside out.. but they understand enough to be able to give an educated opinion on a players production, and what issues they are having.
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Old 06-18-2005   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
of course thats what they will say. Thats what I would say too if I was a player getting shredded on a message board.

How many of those players actually spend enough time on a message board to get to know the posters and actually see how much knowledge they have?

100 bucks says that 99.9999999999% of them.. if they even looked at a message board before.. only looked at it long enough to read the negative posts by the 15 year old *****s.. and based their entire opinion on that.

I agree with aj. Some people have been following the game for years.. they may not understand every single nuance of the game from the inside out.. but they understand enough to be able to give an educated opinion on a players production, and what issues they are having.
I'm with you guys, fans (who care) nowadays' have a zillion more resources about the game and all of it's nuances from the field to the front office than let's say 15 years ago. With the sport growing, the internet, all the sports channels, Fantasy Football, Video games, etc..... we all know more about the sport now more than ever. And I'm sure most of played @ least in high school so we have some idea what they go through.
Plz don't go saying that I said WE KNOW what they go through, just that some of us have some idea (if not more) of what they go through.
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Old 06-18-2005   #31
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I'll try to stay out of this one but I think we have a few really, really astute minds around here when it comes to breaking down NFL stuff objectively. Over the years (since the franchise birth), aj and Arlington Texan are consistently the most spot-on and insightful eyes that choose to participate around here. Being rah-rah about Carr is great and all, but he has flaws in his game. I think it is a good thing that we can talk about his game at least semi-objectively. Saying that we don't grasp the game because we were never players is kinda goofy.
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Old 06-18-2005   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Saying that we don't grasp the game because we were never players is kinda goofy.
This idea can be taken to a logic extreme such as, "You can't say anything bad a about that fast food manager who just screwed up that order. You only worked at Wendy's a couple of summers when you were in high school and college, and have no understanding of what it is like to have 3 sixteen year olds call out, a supply truck sitting at the back door and bus full of screaming eight year olds tearing up the dining room."
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Old 06-18-2005   #33
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Default Easy!!!!!

My reply was not to tear down anyone who really watches the game, have played the game, and understands the breakdown of the game. It was merely a point, where those who watch games through their favorite teams colored blinders, don't look past wins and losses. Believe me, I know there are many "knowledable fans on sites", especially in the heart of Texas where football is king, but there are also those who study the media's perspective, an individual player, or playstation 200?, to gain their perspective on the game, whether it be football, basketball, baseball, or checkers. The point I was making is, it's tougher than what we think and much easier to see a rush, a broken play, blown coverage, or whatever from the stands and a day later, than within seconds when our favorite individual players life is on the line! A.J. has shown to be extremely knowledable, as those who I have had in depth football convo's and everyone's opinion is theirs, and I respect that. My post is really for those who think no matter what the Texans should be in the Super Bowl every year. I for one, am realist. If we stink.....we stink! If a player stinks......he stinks. At the same time, I do realize his job is ,much harder than mine, being that he's most likely working out right now to save his life, and I'm typing to save mine.......lol
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Old 06-18-2005   #34
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Default Apology to....

A.J., Grid, and Arlington. I for one know you to be knowledgable about the game, and my rant was not to attack you guys. It was merely for those who may be looking at our threads who think the game is "easy"!
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Old 06-18-2005   #35
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its not Carr's fault that Mckinney is washed up already. And "project" Wand was starting before he had developed into starting caliber. Infantrycak, we should put you at QB and see how fast you PEE your pants from all the angry 300+pounders trying to knock you out.


Quote from Infantrycak
"Very true, but there are times when he could learn to slide one or two steps to assist the OL instead of going into full flight mode."


Yeah, that's it eh, buddy.............just needs to learn to slide ?

hahahhahaha..............good one buddy...........
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Old 06-18-2005   #36
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Carr will alot better this year, I heard you guys are instaling more quick 3-5 step drop designed to get the ball out of Carr's hand faster. I know your solid #1 reciever is Andre Johnson, and you have talent in Gaffney, and Bradford, but they aren't solid #2's but what about this I think his name is Jerome Mathis? What about him? I heard he was fast and impressed alot of people in practice sounds like he could be your #2. How good is this guy? If so, these quick 3-5 step drops, with solid help from Johnson, Mathis, Bradford, Gaffney lets not exclude the HB's and FB's and TE's could contribute along with the recieveing corps, could set up Carr to have that 24 TD 10 INT 3,600+ yard season many of you guys are talking about.
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Old 06-18-2005   #37
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Mathis.. most likely.. will be our #4 or #5 receiver. I think we will find a way to fit him into our roster so that we can put him out there on 3rd and longs and such.. but chances are he will not be our #2 or #3 for another season or so. He needs time to develope.

Armstrong is another good WR we have who will most likely play a bigger role in our offense this next season... all in all I think with Gaffney, Bradford, Armstrong, and Johnson.. we will be in good shape. And with our returning Oline and their experience in the zone blocking scheme.. we will have better protection for carr.. and bigger holes for Davis.

I think we will be a borderline top ten Offense.. somewhere in the 8-12 range.
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Old 06-18-2005   #38
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Here are some pics of Carr (tried to get pictures of him and the line)

http://www.kansasviking.com/imagesho...avid_carr.html

http://www.kansasviking.com/imagesho...r_gaffney.html

http://www.kansasviking.com/imagesho..._williams.html

http://bookofjoe.typepad.com/photos/...carr_getty.jpg
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Old 06-18-2005   #39
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Default Hulkamania!

Way to dig out old stats! That's a good one to have around!
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Old 06-18-2005   #40
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I have to agree with Arlington here. Figures lie, and liars figure. I would say Brady is about 3 times better than Carr, at least according to his mantle. Carr has plusses in his game, and I am a big fan, but I try to look at things objectively. And, looking at it objectively, considering he was the #1 pick in the draft, I have to say he has been a mild disapointment. I think Arlington was pretty much spot on in his criticisms. That's not to say Carr couldn't make a giant leap this year, but imo, his hype hasn't come close to matching his productivty thus far.
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