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Old 01-30-2013   #1
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Default WR catch rate: Texans

This article lists stats but chart will not copy/paste; must go to link to see or click on second link and pull out individual WR

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...houston-texans


As it turned out, they should have been more worried about how to replace Jacoby Jones.

Garrett Graham stepped in at tight end and managed to replicate Dreessen quite well. He wasn't as explosive on a per-catch basis, but his catch rate was virtually identical.

Where the Texans suffered was in replacing Jones.

(Table of stats)


Jones was released after the 2012 draft in what proved to be a colossal mistake. Not only did he have a standout season on special teams, making the Pro Bowl for the AFC, but the Texans had no way to replace his modest production in the passing game.

Full NFL results here http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr
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Old 01-30-2013   #2
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

This should help

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Old 01-30-2013   #3
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

that's a little misleading. we werent missing jacoby per se, we were missing speed and someone that schaub trusted enough to throw to. andre davis had near identical numbers in 2007 when he was the #3 and spot starter with AJ's injury ... 33rec, 580yds, 3tds. posey looked like he was turning into that player at the end, but the injury may change that. it's my opinion we need a mid-sized or bigger speed freak on the other side because schaub has shown an affinity for targeting those guys on open plays (those not aimed at freeing up a single receiver). we could be even more potent than atlanta's passing attack with only that one addition, considering martin and posey could round out the rotation for years.

this is a draft where we have several picks. i'd trade up to knock out two positions with starters - wide receiver and right tackle. from there we find a real fullback as UDFA or free agent, FINALLY move casey to tightend, and our offense is essentially finished. everything else give to the defense to load up depth.

edit: MSR - great stats badboy
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Old 01-30-2013   #4
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by ckhouston View Post
Where was that "time to get rid of Walter" thread again?

Interesting but Walter's stats don't look that bad to me in themselves. More concerned about the Posey, Jean and Martin failure to launch. That is totally ridiculous. Posey caught 43% & Martin 36%. What bothers me is how many dink passes we see that are successfull but do not move ball much. If a pass does not get you 5 yards or more, better to run. There are some exceptions of course but for most part.
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Old 01-30-2013   #5
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

When the owner comes out and says we need more speed at receiver then that's a pretty clear sign changes will be made. I don't mind Walter coming back, but not as a second option at Wideout. If the team can find a way to make it work financially then I have no problem with him coming back as our 3rd or 4th receiver.
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Old 01-30-2013   #6
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by ckhouston View Post
Combine % and YPR and Walter is our second best receiver. I don't think he is going anywhere.
Give me a break. Walter is NOT a #2wr by any stretch of the imagination & I'm glad McNair finally went on the record saying a wr is needed. Walter's stats are garbage compared to most #2 wr's & even some #3's. Save the "walter is great or seviceable" crap for the bandwagon & fairweather fans who don't know any better. Walters saving grace as always been his "sure" hands & his overrated run blocking. Well, his hands are not so sure any longer as he barely beat a TE who almost had twice as many targets & was outperformed by Andre who nearly tripled his targets. I guess being able to get some seperation would increase his target numbers but we all know that's a lost cause.

41 receptions for a little over 500yrds & 2 TD's over 16 games is not what is expected from any #2 wr & at best can be described as mediocre. Having said that, for a guy who constantly rants & raves about poor QB play it seems to be a bit hypocritical to praise a poor excuse for a #2 wr. Pitiful play is pitiful play regardless of the position or the players name imo.
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Old 01-30-2013   #7
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by ckhouston View Post
Combine % and YPR and Walter is our second best receiver. I don't think he is going anywhere.
not to turn this into another walter thread, but i dont completely trust his numbers because it seems we have to scheme to get him open. great hands, and he's money in traffic, but he cant get any separation and is invisible on most plays.
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Old 01-30-2013   #8
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
that's a little misleading. we werent missing jacoby per se, we were missing speed and someone that schaub trusted enough to throw to. andre davis had near identical numbers in 2007 when he was the #3 and spot starter with AJ's injury ... 33rec, 580yds, 3tds. posey looked like he was turning into that player at the end, but the injury may change that. it's my opinion we need a mid-sized or bigger speed freak on the other side because schaub has shown an affinity for targeting those guys on open plays (those not aimed at freeing up a single receiver). we could be even more potent than atlanta's passing attack with only that one addition, considering martin and posey could round out the rotation for years.

this is a draft where we have several picks. i'd trade up to knock out two positions with starters - wide receiver and right tackle. from there we find a real fullback as UDFA or free agent, FINALLY move casey to tightend, and our offense is essentially finished. everything else give to the defense to load up depth.

edit: MSR - great stats badboy
I kinda like this plan, except somewhere late in the draft I would try to add another WR with speed in case Posey cant make it back next yr. (A developmental type guy)
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Old 01-30-2013   #9
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

there is nothing misleading about 17 yards per catch. hopefully i can watch him doing the choppa city juke in the superbowl and say 'hey he used to be a texan'
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Old 01-30-2013   #10
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by ckhouston View Post
Where was that "time to get rid of Walter" thread again?

I dont want to see him gone .... I just want to see him pushed down the depth chart.

We all know the bigger issue is the QB .... he just cant make some throws or fit balls into tight windows and the offense is limited because of it. That probably has more to do with people thinking the playcalling is predictable than anything else. (But its funny how the Pats ran those same plays against the Texansand it was a brilliant game plan).
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Old 01-30-2013   #11
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by ckhouston View Post
Combine % and YPR and Walter is our second best receiver. I don't think he is going anywhere.
and that is why Kubiak is so loyal to him, that + his blocking that many seemingly want to disregard. Posey was blocking better towards end of season but that was about all.
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Old 01-30-2013   #12
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
and that is why Kubiak is so loyal to him, that + his blocking that many seemingly want to disregard. Posey was blocking better towards end of season but that was about all.
Yeah, and Kubiaks judgment on whom he is loyal to has always been spot on & never called into question. Kubiaks loyality is one of his worst attributes that is often criticized for being a day late & dollar short on making appropriate personnel moves. Marciano, Frank Bush, Kris Brown anyone....

It doesn't matter how deep & desperate some of y'all dig to try & justify Walter, in the end he is still not a legit #2 wr & almost all outside of Houston not drinking the Battle Koolaid know it. Its a shame how foolish some of us act by actually trying to convince ourselves & others into believing that some how averaging 2.6 catches for 32.4 yards & .13 TD's per game is actually worthy of being a starter in the NFL. The silliness is endless.

If any fan from any other team mentioned those numbers to us & then followed it w/ "that's our great #2 wr", he would be laughed at like no other & called a fool by many. Now we know how some Texan fans look to others w/ this Walter gibberish. The blocking is 100% overrated because I have yet to hear that ANY of the wr's have issues run blocking nor is it a glaring issue that all notice. Thus they all seem adequate at it, but the desperation kicks in w/ the Walter lovers & something, no matter how little & frivolous it is, needs to be found to justify the good ol' Kevin Walter. Geez....
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Old 01-30-2013   #13
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by tru80texan View Post
Yeah, and Kubiaks judgment on whom he is loyal to has always been spot on & never called into question. Kubiaks loyality is one of his worst attributes that is often criticized for being a day late & dollar short on making appropriate personnel moves. Marciano, Frank Bush, Kris Brown anyone....

It doesn't matter how deep & desperate some of y'all dig to try & justify Walter, in the end he is still not a legit #2 wr & almost all outside of Houston not drinking the Battle Koolaid know it. Its a shame how foolish some of us act by actually trying to convince ourselves & others into believing that some how averaging 2.6 catches for 32.4 yards & .13 TD's per game is actually worthy of being a starter in the NFL. The silliness is endless.

If any fan from any other team mentioned those numbers to us & then followed it w/ "that's our great #2 wr", he would be laughed at like no other & called a fool by many. Now we know how some Texan fans look to others w/ this Walter gibberish. The blocking is 100% overrated because I have yet to hear that ANY of the wr's have issues run blocking nor is it a glaring issue that all notice. Thus they all seem adequate at it, but the desperation kicks in w/ the Walter lovers & something, no matter how little & frivolous it is, needs to be found to justify the good ol' Kevin Walter. Geez....
Don't mistakenly think I am supporting Walter BUT if you identify a problem, come with a solution or at least say you don't have one. I see few in draft who should be avail that will supplant Walter immediately. Posey was a failure as has been Jean.

You may consider blocking being over rated but is well known to be a requirement of Kubiak's to get on the field.

Also, just as a note about my thinking, I have constantly mocked WR in first round for 2013.

Ridicule Gary's loyalty but it ranks behind McNair's. Not saying it is not an issue but remains something to deal with.
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Old 01-30-2013   #14
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

Ugh, Walter talk again. Amazing how everyone and their mother can see we are amazingly lacking at the #2 but some of us can not because we see a couple of stats. Well if it is stats we want stats we shall have!

As pointed on another thread right here: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98181

Which will lead you to this PFF article: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...per-route-run/

Walter was amongst the lowest in YPRR (yards per route run). In other words, very short routes is all he largely contributed. If you think no other can attribute this then that is a stretch. Others can and it isn't terribly difficult to replace that. The problem is finding someone to do more and give us a true playmaker which is what this coaching staff has been trying to find. They aren't trying because Walter is burning it up. It is obvious they want something more from this spot than a 'Dink and Dunk Tanto' The guy simply gets little separation. Catch% is nice but means little if you can't get open without the system/scheme providing it. As we learned, you can't always rely on play-action.

Secondly, let's talk about an offense that has came to rely on playmakers making something of the short-medium range passes. Well to that effect Walter averaged 2.5 YAC. Yeah....once again, amongst the lower end of the spectrum. What does this mean? He is not a playmaker. Really simple as that and something practically everyone says this team needs.

Now the whole blocking mantra. Folks...it's not that hard to block at receiver. It doesn't take tremendous effort so let's quit the exaggeration of finding Walter's blocking ability as a reason to keep going down this path. Let's look at PFF grades in this category for receivers since it is one of the only sources for such:

The highest graded blocker is Reggie Wayne at 5.9
The lowest graded blocker is Armon Binns at -3.5

The difference from highest to lowest is that small of a window because we're not talking about something that is difficult to achieve. Sheesh, Danny Amendola graded higher than Walter and he is no physical specimen at receiver. Walter and Dre had highest for the Texans at 1.4. Our other guys? 0.9 (Martin/Jean) and 0.4 (Posey). Not a huge difference here. Why? Once again...it isn't that hard. Out of 206 receivers a whopping total of 18 even graded in the red in this category. It's that small of a differential.

So yes, Walter can block. Is it out of the park? No. He has NEVER graded in the top 10 since 2008 (Dre has). In fact, Jacoby outperformed him in this category every year except last year. So yeah...it's exaggerated a bit. Does he have good hands? Yes. But how much does that matter if he can't separate consistently? Kind of easy to get a high percentage with short throws, is it not?

This is a league of playmakers and there is nothing to illustrate Walter is one in the least.
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Old 01-30-2013   #15
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by deucetx View Post
Ugh, Walter talk again. Amazing how everyone and their mother can see we are amazingly lacking at the #2 but some of us can not because we see a couple of stats. Well if it is stats we want stats we shall have!

As pointed on another thread right here: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98181

Which will lead you to this PFF article: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...per-route-run/

Walter was amongst the lowest in YPRR (yards per route run). In other words, very short routes is all he largely contributed. If you think no other can attribute this then that is a stretch. Others can and it isn't terribly difficult to replace that. The problem is finding someone to do more and give us a true playmaker which is what this coaching staff has been trying to find. They aren't trying because Walter is burning it up. It is obvious they want something more from this spot than a 'Dink and Dunk Tanto' The guy simply gets little separation. Catch% is nice but means little if you can't get open without the system/scheme providing it. As we learned, you can't always rely on play-action.

Secondly, let's talk about an offense that has came to rely on playmakers making something of the short-medium range passes. Well to that effect Walter averaged 2.5 YAC. Yeah....once again, amongst the lower end of the spectrum. What does this mean? He is not a playmaker. Really simple as that and something practically everyone says this team needs.

Now the whole blocking mantra. Folks...it's not that hard to block at receiver. It doesn't take tremendous effort so let's quit the exaggeration of finding Walter's blocking ability as a reason to keep going down this path. Let's look at PFF grades in this category for receivers since it is one of the only sources for such:

The highest graded blocker is Reggie Wayne at 5.9
The lowest graded blocker is Armon Binns at -3.5

The difference from highest to lowest is that small of a window because we're not talking about something that is difficult to achieve. Sheesh, Danny Amendola graded higher than Walter and he is no physical specimen at receiver. Walter and Dre had highest for the Texans at 1.4. Our other guys? 0.9 (Martin/Jean) and 0.4 (Posey). Not a huge difference here. Why? Once again...it isn't that hard. Out of 206 receivers a whopping total of 18 even graded in the red in this category. It's that small of a differential.

So yes, Walter can block. Is it out of the park? No. He has NEVER graded in the top 10 since 2008 (Dre has). In fact, Jacoby outperformed him in this category every year except last year. So yeah...it's exaggerated a bit. Does he have good hands? Yes. But how much does that matter if he can't separate consistently? Kind of easy to get a high percentage with short throws, is it not?

This is a league of playmakers and there is nothing to illustrate Walter is one in the least.
Thread is not about Walter but all WRs. My focus is on Posey, Martin and Jean but each poster has right to state opinion on any listed including other team players. Also, I think NFL is full of players who fill needs but are not playmakers, even at QB.
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Old 01-31-2013   #16
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Don't mistakenly think I am supporting Walter BUT if you identify a problem, come with a solution or at least say you don't have one. I see few in draft who should be avail that will supplant Walter immediately. Posey was a failure as has been Jean.

You may consider blocking being over rated but is well known to be a requirement of Kubiak's to get on the field.

Also, just as a note about my thinking, I have constantly mocked WR in first round for 2013.

Ridicule Gary's loyalty but it ranks behind McNair's. Not saying it is not an issue but remains something to deal with.
How can you come to that conclusion based on a very small sampling of work? That's a bit premature to assume they are failures when they are barely given opportunities. I'm not so quick to judge based on their handful of plays that they got combined towards the end of the season. I need a bit more before deeming basically a majority of the wr corp busts because Kubiaks man love for a run blocking specialist runs so deep that he foolishly kept marching the run blocker out there week in & week out instead of giving other wr's a true opportunity to get on the field & make plays. Sure their performances at practices may have dictated whether or not they earned those opportunities, but most of us can attest to the fact that kubiak is loyal to a fault & not necessarily to the best options. For that reasoning alone we can't say it was the wr's actions or the stubbornness of the overly loyal HC. I think I will hold out for a bigger sampling from our young wr's before I deem them failures. That only seems fair. Production can only happen w/ opportunity, which the latter is something that they didn't get much of.
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Old 01-31-2013   #17
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Thread is not about Walter but all WRs. My focus is on Posey, Martin and Jean but each poster has right to state opinion on any listed including other team players. Also, I think NFL is full of players who fill needs but are not playmakers, even at QB.
Even going on about the other receivers...how much opportunity were they given for them to be labelled 'failure'? Receiver is one of the hardest developed positions in the league per GM's, scouts, coaches and mere facts. So two rookies and a one year player are failures even when you add they got little time actually on the field or opportunity? That's a bit of a reach. Not all come out the gate like AJ Green or Julio Jones. Those are rare breeds.

Plus I would hardly say Posey was a failure. From week 15 forward he began taking away time from Walter to the point it was almost 50-50 in some games in amount of plays in the game and overly from that stretch and through the playoffs it fell below a 2:1 ratio. That means he progressed and did something at practices and on film that the coaches liked. That is taking the next step forward. Hardly a failure for a kid who didn't even play football the previous season.

That was something positive for the kid. The injury of course may have thrown that out of whack now but the fact we actually saw progress makes that case not a failure. The other two are incomplete so I wouldn't label them failures at this point. Could they turn out to be? Course. But it is too early to judge them to the point of success and failure. A big fat INC grade seems more correct and unfortunately for them, we're a contender now. So they may lose some because we need production today which means another body coming in that may take from their own progress.
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Old 01-31-2013   #18
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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Interesting but Walter's stats don't look that bad to me in themselves. More concerned about the Posey, Jean and Martin failure to launch. That is totally ridiculous. Posey caught 43% & Martin 36%. What bothers me is how many dink passes we see that are successfull but do not move ball much. If a pass does not get you 5 yards or more, better to run. There are some exceptions of course but for most part.
Combine % and YPR and Walter is our second best receiver. I don't think he is going anywhere.
and that is why Kubiak is so loyal to him, that + his blocking that many seemingly want to disregard. Posey was blocking better towards end of season but that was about all.

Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, & Kevin Walter accounted for 215 catches, 2,832 yards, & 12 TDs

Roddy White, Tony Gonzales, and Julio Jones accounted for 264 catches, 3,479 yards, & 25 TDs

Comparing Walter to our receivers doesn't really put KDub's production in perspective to real #2 WR production.
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Old 01-31-2013   #19
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This team does not need fast receivers because when Matt finishes his 3 step drop, all the receivers will already be at the end of their routes. :-)
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Old 01-31-2013   #20
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Default Re: WR catch rate: Texans

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How can you come to that conclusion based on a very small sampling of work? That's a bit premature to assume they are failures when they are barely given opportunities. I'm not so quick to judge based on their handful of plays that they got combined towards the end of the season. I need a bit more before deeming basically a majority of the wr corp busts because Kubiaks man love for a run blocking specialist runs so deep that he foolishly kept marching the run blocker out there week in & week out instead of giving other wr's a true opportunity to get on the field & make plays. Sure their performances at practices may have dictated whether or not they earned those opportunities, but most of us can attest to the fact that kubiak is loyal to a fault & not necessarily to the best options. For that reasoning alone we can't say it was the wr's actions or the stubbornness of the overly loyal HC. I think I will hold out for a bigger sampling from our young wr's before I deem them failures. That only seems fair. Production can only happen w/ opportunity, which the latter is something that they didn't get much of.
Not saying either should be starters but come on Jean has two years learning system & should have had more than 12 catches from 24 attempts in '12? Sure, I'm willing to give Posey another year but 14 catches at 43% of targets? Then add on to this his penalties = failure. Both could be pro bowlers next season but as for last year...boo. I am grading them on this year as I did with KJ on his first. Does not mean career failure but both get "F" imo for 2012.

I also disagree on your man love comment for Walter blocking; Kevin has history of holding onto the ball. It has been noted on this MB that Kubiak let Posey on field as he had approved in blocking.
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