Time to replace Walter

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

OK insanity has now truly hit the MB. Y'all have fun deciding which player to bash next.

Lol! I would have to agree. Andre is hardly an issue & is considered by many, & I am referring to many outside of Houston as well, to still be a very capable #1wr. He still dealt w/ double teams & being the defenses primary focus & he still posted some of best his stats. Can't complain about that...or at least I can't.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

So you add another weapon & there are no excuses. As it stands Walter is not a weapon because he can't draw attention away from Andre. That has been proven time & time again. Walter has issues getting seperation & this season his hands didn't seem as dependable as years past. It's time for him to move on & replace him w/ younger, faster talent. Remove the excuse for Schaub & then it will apparent that he is the problem. That or he actually realizes he has other options & starts getting others involved. That would be a good thing imo. Lets be honest...even if Schaub is the problem, which I believe he is to some degree, & he actually did look for Walter its highly unlikely that Walter would be open. He is easily swallowed up in 1 on 1 coverage & that is a problem that needs to be addressed regardless of Schaub.

There is no excuse. I have no problem replacing Walter. He should of been replaced a couple of years ago. But replacing him is far down the list of important moves this team needs to make this offseason.

[playa465]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

OK insanity has now truly hit the MB. Y'all have fun deciding which player to bash next.

Originally Posted by tru80texan

Lol! I would have to agree. Andre is hardly an issue & is considered by many, & I am referring to many outside of Houston as well, to still be a very capable #1wr. He still dealt w/ double teams & being the defenses primary focus & he still posted some of best his stats. Can't complain about that...or at least I can't.

They are not bashing AJ. Their point is not to wait until AJ can no longer perform at a high level; get a top flight WR now while AJ is still good before it happens out of an act of desperation.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

OK insanity has now truly hit the MB. Y'all have fun deciding which player to bash next.

Its crazy! AJ had a career year and he shouldn't be our #1 anymore??? The only thing this offense needs to be successful is for the right side of the OL to start to jell. Once that happens and the running game takes off again everything else will fall into place.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by mussop

There is no excuse. I have no problem replacing Walter. He should of been replaced a couple of years ago. But replacing him is far down the list of important moves this team needs to make this offseason.

You got to start somewhere. And what better way to get started then freeing up 3-3.5M to address the needs that you are referring to? Walter is eating up money & space. Money is key & freeing it up 1st is essential imo.

[theNumber80]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I love Andre, but he can't be our #1 going into next season. We need someone now who can feasibly be better than Andre. Posey's Achilles pretty much takes him out of that equation.

We need to draft a WR who could conceivably a #1 on other teams & let him compete, on the field, for that position..... a Torey Smith to Anquan Bolden, or a Julio Jones to Roddy White.

I know we're not going to replace Andre in one season, but the point is we can't be targeting WRs to take Walter's spot. Walter is done as a WR inmo, Andre clearly has that spot. We need to fill #1, #3, & #4...... I think we've got good candidates for 3 & 4 already on the team, we need someone better than all of them.

This is possibly the dumbest statement I've ever heard. There's only 2-3 receivers in the league that would be a #1 on this team. Calvin, AJ Green, and Larry Fitzgerald are the only players who would actually have a chance at being the #1 receiver on this team. Calvin definitely, Green and Fitz arguable. Other than that, we're not gonna find a "#1". Andre Johnson is the DEFINITION of a #1 receiver and you want to replace that? He still has 2-3 elite years left in him as long as he stays healthy. We're gonna have to draft a receiver in the first round if you want a potential Andre and even then making a rookie the #1 is stupid.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by playa465

They are not bashing AJ. Their point is not to wait until AJ can no longer perform at a high level; get a top flight WR now while AJ is still good before it happens out of an act of desperation.

I agree, but kubiak & smith seem to be taking the "develop" a player approach at that position as opposed to drafting 1 that is ready to go. There was sense of urgency to address wr last season by everyone except the Texans FO obviously. With 3 young wrs & Andre still playing at a high level I don't think that has exactly raised any more concerns this season then it did last season w/ the FO.

I agree a future #1 wr needs to be found before its too late, but I'm perfectly fine w/ Andre remaining the #1 wr next season which is what the other individual believed could not happen. I politely disagree.

[welsh texan]

Nobody in this thread has 'bashed' Andre at all, what myself and TK have said is that whilst a couple of years back Smithiak needed to address the WR2 position, at this stage they need to be planning to eventually replace the WR1 position, with a guy who can be WR2 immediately and at some stage as AJ inevitably declines, they will gradually swap places.

Who, in the history of Smithiak, have you seen them take that had even a remote chance of filling that space? I've not seen it, I doubt, at this stage, their ability to identify the requisite talent at the position to ease that transition, maybe best case scenario is another 5 years of AJ being top 10 and capable of beating double coverage, but you can't exactly expect that of him.

We know that on average WRs take 3 years to realise their potential in this league, what are you in favour of doing? Wait it out and hope for the best or act now for immediate improvement and be ready when the time comes.

Ill give you another benefit of what were suggesting here, say Schaubs contract means were stuck with him at least 2 years, in that time whatever we do with the Oline will have had its time to gel, and we'll likely be starting a rookie/inexperienced QB. You want that guy to be throwing at a mid-30s AJ and a bunch of JAGs or to have some talent to look at beyond the Oline.

Everybody worships AJ around here and for good reason, but it shouldn't be sacrosanct to question his ability to handle the load in 2 or 3 years time when he's approaching 15 years in the league. It would be blind not to consider life after the great man's physical prowess declines to a stage when he can't do that anymore.

You want to see how Kevin Walter, Lestar Jean etc cope when the guy across from them isn't worthy of double coverage?

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by theNumber80

This is possibly the dumbest statement I've ever heard. There's only 2-3 receivers in the league that would be a #1 on this team. Calvin, AJ Green, and Larry Fitzgerald are the only players who would actually have a chance at being the #1 receiver on this team. Calvin definitely, Green and Fitz arguable. Other than that, we're not gonna find a "#1". Andre Johnson is the DEFINITION of a #1 receiver and you want to replace that? He still has 2-3 elite years left in him as long as he stays healthy. We're gonna have to draft a receiver in the first round if you want a potential Andre and even then making a rookie the #1 is stupid.

As stupid as it may sound, I presented a couple of examples to better explain what I'm thinking. Roddy White is still #1 in Atlanta, but Julio Jones is fighting for that spot. Anquan Bolden is still #1 in Baltimore, but Torrey Smith is fighting for that spot.

Marvin Harris was the #1 receiver in Indy, but Reggis Wayne was always knocking on that door.

I don't want to go into the draft targeting a #2 WR.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by welsh texan

Nobody in this thread has 'bashed' Andre at all, what myself and TK have said is that whilst a couple of years back Smithiak needed to address the WR2 position, at this stage they need to be planning to eventually replace the WR1 position, with a guy who can be WR2 immediately and at some stage as AJ inevitably declines, they will gradually swap places.

Agreed. Last year the focus was to find a replacement for Walter, we got Posey & Martin. The idea was always to replace Walter & we've brought in Dorin Dickerson, LeStar Jean, Jacoby Jones and similar talent. Not only have we missed the mark, but we fell way below the mark & not one of these guys were able to successfully unseat the blocking King.

We need to raise our sights, aim for the stars & hopefully hit the moon.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Agreed. Last year the focus was to find a replacement for Walter, we got Posey & Martin. The idea was always to replace Walter & we've brought in Dorin Dickerson, LeStar Jean, Jacoby Jones and similar talent. Not only have we missed the mark, but we fell way below the mark & not one of these guys were able to successfully unseat the blocking King.

We need to raise our sights, aim for the stars & hopefully hit the moon.

With the contract AJ signed, I think the Texans look forward to AJ being here another 4-5 years.

If that's their plan, I don't think they will try to draft a replacement in another couple of years. Just my thinking.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

As stupid as it may sound, I presented a couple of examples to better explain what I'm thinking. Roddy White is still #1 in Atlanta, but Julio Jones is fighting for that spot. Anquan Bolden is still #1 in Baltimore, but Torrey Smith is fighting for that spot.

Marvin Harris was the #1 receiver in Indy, but Reggis Wayne was always knocking on that door.

I don't want to go into the draft targeting a #2 WR.

I actually couldn't agree more. In fact, this is how I & many others felt last season. The problem is most believe a high draft pick must be used to accomplish acquiring a wr w/ true #1 wr potential. That's why I mentioned earlier that despite the Texans seemingly being in worst shape at wr last season they still chose not to go that route. Andre & Walter were the only 2 givens to make the roster & they still chose to wait to address wr in the 3rd & 4th rd.
That was a risky move imo, but its how it was addressed. After Jean, Martin, Posey, & even Maehl(who could replace Walter) all gained experience, I can't see the FO changing their philosophy & addressing wr w/ a high pick. The young guys gained experience & the situation was more dire going into last season, but was addressed w/out urgency or concern for obtaing a potential #1 wr. I'm not saying I agree w/ it but based on how they handled it last season I have my doubts that wr will be a priority this season either.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

I actually couldn't agree more. In fact, this is how I & many others felt last season. The problem is most believe a high draft pick must be used to accomplish acquiring a wr w/ true #1 wr potential. That's why I mentioned earlier that despite the Texans seemingly being in worst shape at wr last season they still chose not to go that route. Andre & Walter were the only 2 givens to make the roster & they still chose to wait to address wr in the 3rd & 4th rd.
That was a risky move imo, but its how it was addressed. After Jean, Martin, Posey, & even Maehl(who could replace Walter) all gained experience, I can't see the FO changing their philosophy & addressing wr w/ a high pick. The young guys gained experience & the situation was more dire going into last season, but was addressed w/out urgency or concern for obtaing a potential #1 wr. I'm not saying I agree w/ it but based on how they handled it last season I have my doubts that wr will be a priority this season either.

& I believe the gamble on Posey was to get a true play maker on the field. Had he not blown his achilles, I'd be the last person talking about drafting a WR in the first. Drafting him in 2012, targeting #2 like, 1b production in 2013... I'm good with that & it looked like it was working.

Had it been a hamstring, even an ACL, it would be different. An achilles is career changing, maybe even career ending for a WR.

We can't go in to the draft thinking we'll get a guy who will produce next season, we need a guy who can produce now.

[infantrycak]

I am by no means against planning for the future but this is what I responded to - " he can't be our #1 going into next season."

That is flat out stupidity with AJ coming off an almost 1600 yd season. There isn't anyone coming out in this draft who could lick the brake dust off AJ's wheels much less supplant him as #1 next season.

[theNumber80]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

I am by no means against planning for the future but this is what I responded to - " he can't be our #1 going into next season."

That is flat out stupidity with AJ coming off an almost 1600 yd season. There isn't anyone coming out in this draft who could lick the brake dust off AJ's wheels much less supplant him as #1 next season.

This x100. Almost every team in the league would be happy with Andre being their #1 receiver heading into the season. If we want our next #1 receiver it's gonna have to be in the first round. He'll replace Kevin Walter and when Andre hangs it up he'll somewhat be able to fill his cleats. No one in this draft or free agency is good enough to just take Andre's spot instantly. Only 2-3 people in the world could actually do that...Until Andre shows he's CLEARLY slowing down, a #1 receiver isn't an issue. A QB, NT, and a number TWO to take the pressure off AJ all come before that.

[ReliantTexan]

Originally Posted by mussop

Really? Foster is very good in the passing game. He just wasn't used enough this year. OD had one of his better years this year. How many passes did he have to make great catches and how many passed did he catch and get hit right away? Thats on the QB.

Foster had 40 receptions for a little over 200 yds , he was no dynamic weapon in the passing game, at least not this season.

Don't get me wrong, OD had a good year and is still a solid player but he hasn't looked the same to me since he blew his knee out in 09, doesn't have the YAC ability or get the separation he used to.

Really? And what good did it do us? He only caught 6 passes all season. I rest my case.

He didn't even get significant snaps until week 13. Still made more plays than Walter the last 5 games of the season (including playoffs).

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

& I believe the gamble on Posey was to get a true play maker on the field. Had he not blown his achilles, I'd be the last person talking about drafting a WR in the first. Drafting him in 2012, targeting #2 like, 1b production in 2013... I'm good with that & it looked like it was working.

Had it been a hamstring, even an ACL, it would be different. An achilles is career changing, maybe even career ending for a WR.

We can't go in to the draft thinking we'll get a guy who will produce next season, we need a guy who can produce now.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...FIw_ARdvde73ug
I understand the concern that surround Achilles injuries, but Demaryius Thomas had one early in 2011 & returned for the start of the 2011 season. The link is his story on his return. We can all agree that Thomas is playing at a high level so it is possible to resume a productive career imo.

I think these injuries are starting to evolve similar to ACL's & players are recovering quicker & returning to have productive careers. DeMeco & Thomas are examples of that. I'm not sure if Posey is #1wr material, but he is showing potential to be at least #2 wr material. Time will tell.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...FIw_ARdvde73ug
I understand the concern that surround Achilles injuries, but Demaryius Thomas had one early in 2011 & returned for the start of the 2011 season. The link is his story on his return. We can all agree that Thomas is playing at a high level so it is possible to resume a productive career imo.

I think these injuries are starting to evolve similar to ACL's & players are recovering quicker & returning to have productive careers. DeMeco & Thomas are examples of that. I'm not sure if Posey is #1wr material, but he is showing potential to be at least #2 wr material. Time will tell.

Thanks, that's good info.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by ReliantTexan

Foster had 40 receptions for a little over 200 yds , he was no dynamic weapon in the passing game, at least not this season.

That doesn't mean he's not one. Foster is one of the top dual threats in the NFL. The fact that he only caught 40 passes all year just shows he was under utilized.

As far as OD goes, did you see how many really good catches he made this year? If it weren't for him Schaubs QB rating would be way down. It's not his fault that he doesn't have a QB that can hit him in stride. I don't know how many times OD got creamed after making a good catch this year but it was a lot.

Im really not arguing that walter shouldn't be replaced. Im for upgrading every position on the team if its possible. However I think replacing Walter with anyone other than a top notch FA is going to be a waste of resources and time in the short term. Short term meaning next year. I don't know how much a top FA would improve the #2 WR spots production. Remember who we have at QB?

You give any good QB that can read a defense and make good audibles and give him OD, Johnson and Foster and he will tear it up. Schaub has them and well, they are not enough. He needs more. Is more really going to make a difference?

It wont matter who is playing the #2 WR as long as Schaub is the QB and Kubiak is in charge of the offense. Kubiak is either a control freak or he doesn't trust Schaub to do anything but what he is told. Either way thats not good for us.

Man next year is going to be stressful . We are not even going to be able enjoy Winning unless its against a really good team.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by mussop

That doesn't mean he's not one. Foster is one of the top dual threats in the NFL. The fact that he only caught 40 passes all year just shows he was under utilized.

As far as OD goes, did you see how many really good catches he made this year? If it weren't for him Schaubs QB rating would be way down. It's not his fault that he doesn't have a QB that can hit him in stride. I don't know how many times OD got creamed after making a good catch this year but it was a lot.

Im really not arguing that walter shouldn't be replaced. Im for upgrading every position on the team if its possible. However I think replacing Walter with anyone other than a top notch FA is going to be a waste of resources and time in the short term. Short term meaning next year. I don't know how much a top FA would improve the #2 WR spots production. Remember who we have at QB?

You give any good QB that can read a defense and make good audibles and give him OD, Johnson and Foster and he will tear it up. Schaub has them and well, they are not enough. He needs more. Is more really going to make a difference?

It wont matter who is playing the #2 WR as long as Schaub is the QB and Kubiak is in charge of the offense. Kubiak is either a control freak or he doesn't trust Schaub to do anything but what he is told. Either way thats not good for us.

Man next year is going to be stressful . We are not even going to be able enjoy Winning unless its against a really good team.

Who in your opinion is a "top notch" FA? Jerome Simpson? Devery Henderson? Ramses Barden? I'm mean when it's all said done this is probably the group that you would be looking at assuming the Texans are only willing to sign someone for money similar to what Walter is/was making. IMO all of these guys offer more potential then Walter & could actually be had for a cheaper price if you consider Simpson made 2M this season & Walter is due to make in the 3-3.5M area.

I don't think the Texans need a big name playmaker, but they do need someone who will at least force the other team to account for them or they could be burned. That is not the case w/ Walter. I'm not real impressed/ the FA group of wr's, but 1 thing is for sure...most have more to offer then Walter & potentially for less money.

I do agree on the wins. I will be happy w/ a win, but I will have a hard time being convinced or satisfied by them until it's against the likes of NE, Denver, SF, & even Seattle. We need to expect more against the better teams & quit being easily satisfied & impressed w/ wins against the likes of Jacksonville & Buffalo IMO.