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Old 01-14-2013   #181
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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Originally Posted by dream_team View Post
And guess what, only TWO teams left are top 10 offenses. In fact, the Texans are #7 in offense.

Not to mention the Seahawks were 30 seconds away from making it TWO top 10 defenses, and only one top 10 offense.

I don't think this stat says much.


When people comment Defenses they focus on the stat related to yards allowed, which is not nearly as points allowed. 3 or the 4 teams left are in the top 10 for points allowed. The other (Ravens) is 12 th in points allowed.


When I see the Pats (whose D has improved a lot from the beginning of the season) they have the highest scoring O and highest point differential.

In a lot of games the Pats have a big lead focus on not giving up the big play and trade time for short yards. So a lot of the yards they giving up are in garbage time and achieve the desired result (winning the game).

Points allowed is the measure of the best D's not yards allowed.
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Old 01-14-2013   #182
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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Originally Posted by patsfan13 View Post
When people comment Defenses they focus on the stat related to yards allowed, which is not nearly as points allowed. 3 or the 4 teams left are in the top 10 for points allowed. The other (Ravens) is 12 th in points allowed.


When I see the Pats (whose D has improved a lot from the beginning of the season) they have the highest scoring O and highest point differential.

In a lot of games the Pats have a big lead focus on not giving up the big play and trade time for short yards. So a lot of the yards they giving up are in garbage time and achieve the desired result (winning the game).

Points allowed is the measure of the best D's not yards allowed.
I agree. 10 of the top 14 defenses (in terms of points allowed) made the playoffs. All of the teams still in it are in the top 12.

I'm not saying defense is more important than offense... but I don't agree with the notion offense is more important than defense.
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Old 01-14-2013   #183
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Originally Posted by dream_team View Post
And guess what, only TWO teams left are top 10 offenses. In fact, the Texans are #7 in offense.

Not to mention the Seahawks were 30 seconds away from making it TWO top 10 defenses, and only one top 10 offense.

I don't think this stat says much.
What part of Having the ability to put points up against good teams don't you understand?
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Old 01-14-2013   #184
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Originally Posted by patsfan13 View Post

Points allowed is the measure of the best D's not yards allowed.
Incorrect.

There is not really an individual factor you can look at to see the best defenses.

If an offense can hold onto the ball and control top/the flow of the game, they can limit opprotunities for the opposing offense to score. Conversely if your offense absolutely sucks even a good defense might give up td's. If your offense can't move the ball and you are punting and giving the opponent short fields their yardage might not be as high, but their point totals will be.

In the past game, the patriots defense didn't allow 4 field goals. Your special teams played a part in that. If your special teams allows a return to the one yard line and they pound it in from the one, that doesnt mean your defense sucks because they gave up 7 points.

Offense is straight forward. Either you can consistently move the ball and put points up or you can't. Defense has a lot of variables that can come into play.
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Old 01-14-2013   #185
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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What part of Having the ability to put points up against good teams don't you understand?
Someone posted that only one top 10 defense (according to yards allowed) is left in the playoffs.

All I'm saying is that stat doesn't really say much.

I did not say anything about having the ability to put points up against good teams.
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Old 01-14-2013   #186
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I agree. 10 of the top 14 defenses (in terms of points allowed) made the playoffs. All of the teams still in it are in the top 12.

I'm not saying defense is more important than offense... but I don't agree with the notion offense is more important than defense.
Yes offense matters more than defense in today's NFL.

There are only 32 teams in the NFL. Being in the top 14 is not what I'd call being a great defense. Top 3 maybe top 5 is where the meat is.

Being in the top half defense wise should be expected if you have a good team. No one is saying you can consistently win games with a bottom feeding defense.

But if you are planning on winning games the way we plan on winning them you shrink your margin for error. We freak out because of the drop pass by Casey and foster...how many dropped passes did welker have? How many off target balls did Brady throw? The reason we freak out is because we know our offense is limited and those kind of opportunities dont come as often. So when we miss that golden opprotunity it stings badly. Small margin for error.


We want to consistent hold opponents to 21 or fewer. If you can't score with the big boys, you are never going to beat them. It's that simple. The defense sucked and needs to get better....but if you can't throw up 35 or so when called upon then you just won't be able to compete.
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Old 01-14-2013   #187
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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Originally Posted by patsfan13 View Post
When people comment Defenses they focus on the stat related to yards allowed, which is not nearly as points allowed. 3 or the 4 teams left are in the top 10 for points allowed. The other (Ravens) is 12 th in points allowed.


When I see the Pats (whose D has improved a lot from the beginning of the season) they have the highest scoring O and highest point differential.

In a lot of games the Pats have a big lead focus on not giving up the big play and trade time for short yards. So a lot of the yards they giving up are in garbage time and achieve the desired result (winning the game).

Points allowed is the measure of the best D's not yards allowed.
You know, I'd take that one step further and say that neither points or yards completely tells the tale on the Pats season defensively. The Patriots entire approach to the season is different from a lot of teams. It's almost like the first quarter of the regular season is still their preseason. They're making adjustments, making changes, lose a game nobody worries. They've got guys playing who sit for most other teams as a matter of procedure. In New England those guys are getting reps. Middle eight games New England starts to come together and seems to focus on making sure they're in the postseason. They jump all over their division opponents (who are by and large pretty bad) and win their division. Last 4 games it goes into overdrive. I'd almost say that the Patriots start playing playoff football 4 weeks before the regular season ends. By the time they get to the postseason they're focused on destroying their 2 playoff opponents and getting to the Super Bowl.

Now that may seem off topic but my point is that they're seeing these statistics that we all hang our collective hats on in an entirely different way than the Houston Texans do. Where they finish doesn't seem all that important to Belechick as long as by the end of the year when it matters they're holding people down and taking their lunch money. It's really a thing of beauty to look at. Start out looking like you've lost a step, finish up looking like your defense found the fountain of youth. It's impressive and very smart. Getting out to an early start is nice but the season is a marathon not a sprint.
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Old 01-14-2013   #188
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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It goes back to what Vinny was saying yesterday about how the game is so skewed in favor of the offenses that at this point in time a great offense can often just run roughshod over a great defense, at least by the standards of the recent past. I think we've reached that tipping point where the NFL has started to really look a little like NBA on grass.

When the Patriots get to December it's like they hit a whole other gear. It used to be a defense wins championships league but now the tables have turned and a great offense can run the legs off of any defense eventually.
When we look back in this era 20 years from now I suspect we will be calling their QB the greatest QB of all time. He's pretty much there. 5 SBs, 3 wins, and maybe one more coming, with no real end in sight. He seems as hungry as he was in 2002!
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Old 01-14-2013   #189
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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Incorrect.

There is not really an individual factor you can look at to see the best defenses.

If an offense can hold onto the ball and control top/the flow of the game, they can limit opprotunities for the opposing offense to score. Conversely if your offense absolutely sucks even a good defense might give up td's. If your offense can't move the ball and you are punting and giving the opponent short fields their yardage might not be as high, but their point totals will be.

In the past game, the patriots defense didn't allow 4 field goals. Your special teams played a part in that. If your special teams allows a return to the one yard line and they pound it in from the one, that doesnt mean your defense sucks because they gave up 7 points.

Offense is straight forward. Either you can consistently move the ball and put points up or you can't. Defense has a lot of variables that can come into play.


Over the course of the season pts allowed will even out all the noise like a poor ST play or 2.


Teams like the Pats (and the Parcells Giant's for example) play a bend don't break D, the theory being that if yo make someone take 12-15+ plays on a drive there is a good chance the O will make a mistake, penalty sack, ect that will end the drive.

We knew the Pas D wasn't playing well early in the season because of all the big plays they were given up, that was not the case when the Secondary was revamped.

Another D stat that is far more important than yards allowed is Turnovers. the Stats on chances of winning based on turnover differential are amazing.

If you choose to take a simplistic view of D performance be my guest.
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Old 01-14-2013   #190
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Over the course of the season pts allowed will even out all the noise like a poor ST play or 2.
A poor ST play or two is fine, but there is a such thing as having a consistently bad special teams in case you didn't know. Ours was poor for most of the year.

And you are the one taking a simplistic view. I clearly said there are a bunch of factors involved while you're convinced there's just one...points allowed...Not even sure what the hell you're talking about with that. Reading comprehension isn't that tough. Simplistic is the exact opposite of what I said.
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Old 01-14-2013   #191
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
You know, I'd take that one step further and say that neither points or yards completely tells the tale on the Pats season defensively. The Patriots entire approach to the season is different from a lot of teams. It's almost like the first quarter of the regular season is still their preseason. They're making adjustments, making changes, lose a game nobody worries. They've got guys playing who sit for most other teams as a matter of procedure. In New England those guys are getting reps. Middle eight games New England starts to come together and seems to focus on making sure they're in the postseason. They jump all over their division opponents (who are by and large pretty bad) and win their division. Last 4 games it goes into overdrive. I'd almost say that the Patriots start playing playoff football 4 weeks before the regular season ends. By the time they get to the postseason they're focused on destroying their 2 playoff opponents and getting to the Super Bowl.

Now that may seem off topic but my point is that they're seeing these statistics that we all hang our collective hats on in an entirely different way than the Houston Texans do. Where they finish doesn't seem all that important to Belechick as long as by the end of the year when it matters they're holding people down and taking their lunch money. It's really a thing of beauty to look at. Start out looking like you've lost a step, finish up looking like your defense found the fountain of youth. It's impressive and very smart. Getting out to an early start is nice but the season is a marathon not a sprint.




You are correct BB like to tell his team the season begins at Thanksgiving.

This year was very unique, if you look at the core of the Pats D it is very young, almost all of the players are from the 2009-2012 drafts.

This year we have a number of rookies playing starting roles/big minutes this year.

The other thing that happened is that the Secondary was transformed over the course of the season after getting shredded early. People were aware of the Talib addition, but that triggered a domino effect, the most important was McCourty taking over the FS role from Chung who is good against the run but a horrible against the pas as a safety. The other was Dennard emerging as a good press corner, (he slipped from the first to seventh round for punching a cop) this allowed Arrington who isn't good on the outside to move to a slot CB in the nickle where he plays quite well. These changes have transformed the secondary.

You are also correct that the NFL season isn't a sprint, actually I like to think of it as a war of attrition. I read a few years ago that the Pats had more guys making a million+ than any other team in the league IOW they have a large middle class of role players who can fill in when a starter gets injured.

Of course having the guy who (IMO) will be regarded as the GOAT at QB doesn't hurt. I am enjoying it while it lasts I have been following this team for 50 years and will never have it this good again.
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Old 01-14-2013   #192
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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A poor ST play or two is fine, but there is a such thing as having a consistently bad special teams in case you didn't know. Ours was poor for most of the year.

And you are the one taking a simplistic view. I clearly said there are a bunch of factors involved while you're convinced there's just one. Not even sure what the hell you're talking about with that. Reading comprehension isn't that tough.

The game is about scoring more points than the other team not about allowing the fewest yards.

You may even prefer allowing a FG in garbage time in exchange for a 7 min drive when up by 2+ scores for example.

Sorry no one explained this to you.

IF I had a team that gave up say 500 yards a game but due to turnovers and allowing only FG's and no touchdowns, then averaged 12 pts per game allowed, you would say that was a great D, I exaggerate of course but hopefully you will get the point.
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Old 01-16-2013   #193
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Default Re: Why is it on Schaub and not the D?

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I don't think that says a freaking thing. Whomever was stating that top defenses don't have a huge factor isn't looking at history. It's been just as much about top defenses as it has strong QB play. It's been a combination of both.
We haven't seen it yet this year, but most defenses find a way to step it up in the post season. Even teams with poor defenses during the regular season generally surprise people in the play offs.

Every team is 0-0 to start the play offs & all the stats get thrown out the window.

Atlanta's defense is the one to watch, they played amazing in the first half of the SeaHawks game. If they can put that together to start the NFC Championship game, they may take Kaepernick out of the game early.
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