What Constitutes a QB Fumble???

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by powda

At what point did the qb lose the ball? If his arm wasn't going forward its a fumble. If the ball wasn't going forward without being touched by another player that's pretty telling...

In every single replay I saw, he lost the ball after Barwin him him, causing his arm to go forward. Dalton was drawing back to make a pass and Barwin hit him, with the arm still going backwards. Barwin hit his upper arm/elbow area and the ball shot forward. I can't find a replay of it or I'd post it.

[ajohnson80]

Originally Posted by DocBar

In every single replay I saw, he lost the ball after Barwin him him, causing his arm to go forward. Dalton was drawing back to make a pass and Barwin hit him, with the arm still going backwards. Barwin hit his upper arm/elbow area and the ball shot forward. I can't find a replay of it or I'd post it.

I saw it a few times. Barwin grabbed his arm then dalton moved it forward in a throwing motion. No fumble and frankly I was pissed Kubiak challenged it.

[powda]

Originally Posted by DocBar

In every single replay I saw, he lost the ball after Barwin him him, causing his arm to go forward. Dalton was drawing back to make a pass and Barwin hit him, with the arm still going backwards. Barwin hit his upper arm/elbow area and the ball shot forward. I can't find a replay of it or I'd post it.

I haven't made up my mind one way or another. Thats the criteria i'll be following when I see it again.

[corytx8]

I'm sorry, but I thought the Refs got the call right and I thought the challenge was horribe by Coach K. Barwin hit Daltons arm but dalton still was able to hold on the ball and he went to get rid of the ball. Barwin hit to Dalton arm called the ball to not have a steam on the throwing motion.

[powda]

I thought the play was close and when points are up for grabs (3) I think it was a solid challenge. A dumb challenge is when you cant count to 12.

[ajohnson80]

Originally Posted by powda

I thought the play was close and when points are up for grabs (3) I think it was a solid challenge. A dumb challenge is when you cant count to 12.

I don't they had awhile to look at it before the challenge, and it was obviously not a fumble. It was the 2nd half we could have needed that timeout. Just like in the first half when he wasted a running play and timeout driving before the end of the half. We had a chance to put points on the board.

[DocBar]

I don't understand why people can't visually see that Barwin caused Dalton's arm to move forward. His arm was clearly going backwards before Barwin hit him. Dalton's arm damned near looked broken on that play.

[mridge01]

Originally Posted by powda

At what point did the qb lose the ball? If his arm wasn't going forward its a fumble. If the ball wasn't going forward without being touched by another player that's pretty telling...

Yeah barwin's not having much luck in this dept. he got the hose vs. luck. Hopefully if he keeps getting back there it will work out in his favor.

[powda]

Originally Posted by ajohnson80

I don't they had awhile to look at it before the challenge, and it was obviously not a fumble. It was the 2nd half we could have needed that timeout. Just like in the first half when he wasted a running play and timeout driving before the end of the half. We had a chance to put points on the board.

In a close game like this one 3 points means a lot. I'm way more flexible at losing a challenge/timeout late in the first half when we have additional timeouts then I am in the 2nd half. I can understand if you disagree but kubiak has made far worse challenges in his time. I dont think this is one to hold against him.

[ajohnson80]

Originally Posted by powda

In a close game like this one 3 points means a lot. I'm way more flexible at losing a challenge/timeout late in the first half when we have additional timeouts then I am in the 2nd half. I can understand if you disagree but kubiak has made far worse challenges in his time. I dont think this is one to hold against him.

Well he has made worse challenges I agree with that notion. He took points off the board in the first half, and lost a timeout with the bad challenge in the second half. Those are the type of coaching errors that really hurt you against someone like Belichik. I will give him a pass today, but he needs to do better with game decisions next week.

[corytx8]

Originally Posted by DocBar

I don't understand why people can't visually see that Barwin caused Dalton's arm to move forward. His arm was clearly going backwards before Barwin hit him. Dalton's arm damned near looked broken on that play.

Yes, but anytime the QB has a forward motion on his arm, it becomes a pass. A pass which Andy Dalton was able to hold onto the ball enough to release it after his arm went forward. Barwin would have need to knock the ball out while Dalton arm was cocked back in order for it be ruled a fumble. Sorry buddy, but either you saw wrong or ya not understanding the rule then.

Ball out after arm is forward = pass
Ball out while arm is backwards = fumble
Its that simple.

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by powda

In a close game like this one 3 points means a lot. I'm way more flexible at losing a challenge/timeout late in the first half when we have additional timeouts then I am in the 2nd half. I can understand if you disagree but kubiak has made far worse challenges in his time. I dont think this is one to hold against him.

I love that Kubiak challenged it and I thin k he was right. That was clearly a sack/fumble to me.

[texanhead08]

I thought it was dumb to challenge it because if last week wasn't a fumble this one surely wasn't.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by corytx8

Yes, but anytime the QB has a forward motion on his arm, it becomes a pass. A pass which Andy Dalton was able to hold onto the ball enough to release it after his arm went forward. Barwin would have need to knock the ball out while Dalton arm was cocked back in order for it be ruled a fumble. Sorry buddy, but either you saw wrong or ya not understanding the rule then.

Ball out after arm is forward = pass
Ball out while arm is backwards = fumble
Its that simple.

If Barwin knocked his arm forward before the ball started coming out then pass. Doesn't matter that Barwin (not Dalton) started the arm forward, what matters is - did the ball start coming out before the arm started forward? If DocBar is correct that Barwin's hit caused the arm to start forward then it is an imcomplete pass. If Barwin had hit the ball loose and Dalton's arm continued backwards (not what happened according to DocBar) then it would have been a fumble.

Even so, it was a reasonable challenge. If you have a 10% chance of getting a turnover, it is worth losing a first half timeout.

[Oz Texan]

Originally Posted by corytx8

Yes, but anytime the QB has a forward motion on his arm, it becomes a pass. A pass which Andy Dalton was able to hold onto the ball enough to release it after his arm went forward. Barwin would have need to knock the ball out while Dalton arm was cocked back in order for it be ruled a fumble. Sorry buddy, but either you saw wrong or ya not understanding the rule then.

Ball out after arm is forward = pass
Ball out while arm is backwards = fumble
Its that simple.

Tell that to TJ Yates who had a ball go 14 yards forward up the field last year and the refs still called it a fumble.

[Blake]

To me it looked like the ball came loose while going back, and Dalton's throwing motion shot it forward. He didnt have a grip on the ball. The ball was just in the way of where his arm/hand was going.

I would say Fumble.

[HJam72]

Here's what I look at: what was he trying to do and where was he trying to throw the ball? Seems pretty obvious to me that he had no control over it other than just making sure it went somewhat forward (somewhere), so that he could act like, "Oh, that was a bad pass...........duh..."

2 things: They keep changing the rules when they suddenly want them to favor somebody (or disfavor a disliked city), and

2) they (the new rules--like the tuck-rule, for instance) don't even have to make sense.

[HJam72]

If they let Dalton get away with that, they will let Brady drop it, call a time-out in the middle of the stinking play, walk over, pick up the ball, find a nice, comfortable, safe place to stand, survey the field, and then restart the action.