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Old 11-01-2013   #281
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by EVOLVIST View Post
Hope and change keenum is here
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Old 11-01-2013   #282
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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"The people's Champ"..

It's pretty sad when the majority of the city could recognize the move that should've been made well before the coaching staff does.
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation. I could write at length on this in one of the Kubiak threads, but it is relevant to this situation because Kubiak could not abandon his vision of Schaub as a championship calibre quarterback. He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising. Shedding that vision is gut wrenching, because Kubiak's a good natured guy who never wants to retire with a regret as heavy as not giving Schaub a fair opportunity.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown. Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization. Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates. There's some implication of his job stability in an out-of-process risk like that.

For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.
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Old 11-01-2013   #283
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Wink Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation. I could write at length on this in one of the Kubiak threads, but it is relevant to this situation because Kubiak could not abandon his vision of Schaub as a championship calibre quarterback. He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising. Shedding that vision is gut wrenching, because Kubiak's a good natured guy who never wants to retire with a regret as heavy as not giving Schaub a fair opportunity.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown. Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization. Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates. There's some implication of his job stability in an out-of-process risk like that.
Totally agree.


Quote:
For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.

Totally disagree.

Kubiak is a pretty lousy head coach. Mediocre at best. The first part of your post which i agreed with proves that. That's part of being a good coach and having good decisions and making bold moves. I mean look at our quarterback history since kubiak has gotten here. Orlovsky, Grossman, Delhomme, Schaub, Yates, Rosencopter, how did this guy ever get the status of being a guru at anything let alone quarterbacks? Maybe keenum is his saving grace but its still too early to tell.

No, Kubiak is not a good coach. The first part of your post proves that. You cant cherry pick things that are good and make that as your overall basis to label somebody pretty good coach. We havent even gotten to his in game decision making and play calling. His constant 2nd and long running plays, his complete and utter lack of balls to go for the kill, his conservative play not to lose instead of playing to win philosophy, his bland, predictable offense, sorry, kubiak is not a good coach at all. His two division championships was the result of the colts imploding with peyton's neck and subsequent rebuilding.

You cant call a coach who is scared to win, scared to look at crucial field goals, scared to fire incompetent personnel (joe marciano says hi) a pretty good coach.

sorry.

That's what you call a pretty lousy head coach.
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Old 11-01-2013   #284
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by GNTLEWOLF View Post
I hate to do this, and if I'm flamed I understand. I love Andre as much as any other Texans fan does. But I have to know... Is Andre really still an all pro this year? Is he putting up all pro numbers and production? Is he making the tough yards? Are his catches blowing games open? I know it is almost blasphemy to question Andre. I'm sorry that I am, but He has lost a step or two, and I don't se him as the difference maker he used to be. I know he's still good, but I'm not sure he is still all pro caliber, and I want him to prove my doubts wrong.
I'm a big Andre fan. He's a very good player. However, he is no longer a dynamic threat. He does not have break away speed anymore and is no longer special in the open field. His hands have always been inconsistent. He's still big, strong, and competitive. However, in essence, he should be a #2 WR... not that he should get fewer touches but that the team needs utilize someone else to threaten the defense vertically and to make big plays in the seams, which is what is exciting about Hopkins and Posey. Both of those players have that potential/ability.
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Old 11-01-2013   #285
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
Texans Chick asserts that the offensive scheme will make some adjustments that maximize Keenum's strengths.



Quoting Bill Barnwell from Grantland to support that assertion:



Link.

Read both Stradley's article and Barnwell's.
See, while it sounds nice in theory, I don't agree that this is the way to go with Keenum. Or, at least, not wholly as the article implies...and as the game against KC implied.

The fact is, much was made in the off season about Keenum working on this 3, 5 and 7-step drops from under center, as well as his knowledge of the playbook. This was further validated by Keenum's performances in the pre-season where he primarily operated under center, until the last pre-season game. The results?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4LpCbVTp-g

Everyone has seen this video, but notice his footwork looks as if he has been doing it for years. This was/is a good sign - and they were TDs, too! Now, instead, we're talking about using these "RGIII packages," almost negating the hard work Case put in to be a more complete NFL QB and not a spread guy.

Really, we should be looking at what Brees and Cam Newton do in shotgun and under center for a more viable options for Case. Case isn't going to run a read-option too well, so why not confuse the defenses with what the Texans do best by masking their runs and passes, using the same formations?

I think so. In fact, I know so.
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Old 11-01-2013   #286
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

That slant that Kennum hit Posey on was great. He hit him in stride and showed great explosion as he cut up field, people shouldn't sleep on that kid.. he still has a lot of upside and was starting to make plays before his injury last season.. He hasn't played a lot of football due to injury/suspension the last couple of years, but as he gets more time knocking off the rust I only see him getting better and better. Hopkins is more polished and more skillful, but Posey might have the best upside.

As far as Andre.. as these young guys start making plays and atract attention away from Andre, if the defense naps on him, he can still get behind them for big plays and he still has no problem getting open being the savy vet that he is. However it was completely stupid and selfish to snip his hamstring, the Texans were just thinking "for today" instead of for the future. They should've shut him down and gave him the best long term surgurical procedure.
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Old 11-01-2013   #287
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
That slant that Kennum hit Posey on was great. He hit him in stride and showed great explosion as he cut up field, people shouldn't sleep on that kid.. he still has a lot of upside and was starting to make plays before his injury last season.. He hasn't played a lot of football due to injury/suspension the last couple of years, but as he gets more time knocking off the rust I only see him getting better and better. Hopkins is more polished and more skillful, but Posey might have the best upside.

As far as Andre.. as these young guys start making plays and atract attention away from Andre, if the defense naps on him, he can still get behind them for big plays and he still has no problem getting open being the savy vet that he is. However it was completely stupid and selfish to snip his hamstring, the Texans were just thinking "for today" instead of for the future. They should've shut him down and gave him the best long term surgurical procedure.
We already knew the Texans had potential BEASTS at the wideout spot. Too bad it took a series of strange circumstances/injuries to push Kubiak into making the right decision at QB. Sunday can't get here soon enough.
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Old 11-01-2013   #288
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown.
i love that line "result of the process, not his evaluations". i think it's dead on. i'm going to use it in this case to support kubiak, because it's a fantastic process he's got. he can coach up and teach and bring the best out of players as well as anyone. we find so many diamonds like foster and keenum and brooks because of kubiak's process. he however needs people who's strengths are his weaknesses instead of what appear to be "yes men" that he has around him. a coordinator who isnt afraid of the ugly job of telling kubiak "schaub's done, here's what you're not wanting to see". someone who shows the low-lights when evaluating prospects.

kubiak certainly has his weaknesses, but he also has his strengths. i think we'll see the top end of those strengths with how keenum plays out the season. i'd rather keep that and try to address his weaknesses better, than try to replace him with someone who will just swap those areas.
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Old 11-01-2013   #289
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

Hopefully Keenum is the real deal. If he can make Lestar Jean look good, imagine what Hopkins, Posey and AJ will look like.
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Old 11-01-2013   #290
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation. I could write at length on this in one of the Kubiak threads, but it is relevant to this situation because Kubiak could not abandon his vision of Schaub as a championship calibre quarterback. He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising. Shedding that vision is gut wrenching, because Kubiak's a good natured guy who never wants to retire with a regret as heavy as not giving Schaub a fair opportunity.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown. Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization. Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates. There's some implication of his job stability in an out-of-process risk like that.

For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.
Pointing out "THE PROCESS" concept makes virtually everything fall into place..............MSR for putting together such astute observations.
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Old 11-01-2013   #291
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Hopefully Keenum is the real deal. If he can make Lestar Jean look good, imagine what Hopkins, Posey and AJ will look like.
It's really uncanny the connection Keenum and Jean have. He always finds him open somehow.
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Old 11-01-2013   #292
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation.
Couldn't disagree more.

It's easy to MMQB Kubiak, make decisions in a vacuum, and assume everything would've worked out the way we planned, but that's not reality. Kubiak hasn't shown Schaub any more loyalty than any other coach would have shown towards Matt given his tenure & what he has accomplished in this league (what little that may be).

Matt was pulled twice before he got game. & before he got hurt he was having a pretty good, Matt Schaub game. 98.5 passer rating, 8.9 ypa, 71% completion, no turnovers, despite being sacked 3 times.

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising.
Matt has looked physically better than he has in a long, long time.

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown.
Others constantly remind me Arian said he wasn't ready when he first got here. & just like this situation, who knows what was going to happen if Kubiak did make the switch earlier. This is one of those vacuum decisions where we assume everything would have turned out better if our wishes were granted.

But if you've got a known in one hand & unpredictability in the other, you've got to roll with you know. You can game plan around what you know. & I can't remember all those games, but they were mostly all winnable back in 2010, many of them lost on the last play of the game, or in the last minute.

Giving Arian the opportunity when he got his opportunity (actually I think he fumbled inside his first 5 carries), probably made him the player he is today.

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Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization.
I honestly thought Frank Bush was the answer in 2009. We weren't a top 10 defense, but we weren't bottom 3 either. The defense showed very good progress & decisions & plans made by the F.O. didn't work out. Hard to blame Bush for all of that.

I bet if Wade didn't become available & Bum wasn't hanging out at Reliant as much as he was at the time, Bush would have got another year to redeem himself.

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Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates.
Like I said earlier, Kubiak went about it the way most everyone else would have. Schaub is the starter, until he gets hurt. That's the rule for QBs & just about everyone follows it if you've got a guy who's played as well as Matt has over the last 6 years.

As far as Yates goes, we were 2-4, the future (which I believe Case was Kubiak's plan) is now. Poor Yates got some rough situations to "win" the job, but no more so than what they did to Case. & Case came out better in KC.

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For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.
I agree that there are worse coaches out there & it could be worse here. But I agree, this is what he do & if he can't save this season by preparing the team to win as they are built now (all his decisions) then his time here is over.
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Old 11-01-2013   #293
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by EVOLVIST View Post
See, while it sounds nice in theory, I don't agree that this is the way to go with Keenum. Or, at least, not wholly as the article implies...and as the game against KC implied.

The fact is, much was made in the off season about Keenum working on this 3, 5 and 7-step drops from under center, as well as his knowledge of the playbook. This was further validated by Keenum's performances in the pre-season where he primarily operated under center, until the last pre-season game.
Preseason still don't mean jack.

But, we're not going to be exclusively pistol/shotgun. That was because the line was struggling, needed help & KCs got the best pass rush in the league. We'll still be heavy pistol/shotgun, because some of the same issues are still there. Mathis is the leading pass rusher ytd.

I'm sure there will be some of our regular, from under center plays scripted in the first 15, then depending on what they see there, they'll go from there.
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Old 11-02-2013   #294
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

I'm case keenum'd out.

Just ready to see the next game.
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Old 11-02-2013   #295
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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I'm case keenum'd out.

Just ready to see the next game.


I'm sure Keenum will do a better job than Schaub or Yates would, how much better is yet to be seen. I think a lot of us, including myself, have been drinking the Keenum koolaid probably have more expectations of him than he'll show us in only his 2nd game. But I'm ready for a change.

Seeing him in red again is just going to be totally cool though.
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Old 11-03-2013   #296
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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It's really uncanny the connection Keenum and Jean have. He always finds him open somehow.
This. So much this.
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Schaub will have a Flacco like chip on his shoulder this season and win the MVP!

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Old 11-03-2013   #297
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation. I could write at length on this in one of the Kubiak threads, but it is relevant to this situation because Kubiak could not abandon his vision of Schaub as a championship calibre quarterback. He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising. Shedding that vision is gut wrenching, because Kubiak's a good natured guy who never wants to retire with a regret as heavy as not giving Schaub a fair opportunity.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown. Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization. Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates. There's some implication of his job stability in an out-of-process risk like that.
great post and I agree. But I don't see Kubiak as a good coach. I see him as more of a "keystone cop" type coach bumbling his way along. He is not a good leader imho but more of a 2nd in command type that needs direction. Much better OC.

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Originally Posted by Brisco_County View Post
For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.
this is the part I don't necessarily agree with.
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Old 11-03-2013   #298
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Vance87 View Post
It's really uncanny the connection Keenum and Jean have. He always finds him open somehow.
i mentioned this before the cheifs game in my support of him, keenum has a better rapport with jean and martin and the younger receivers because that's who he practices with. schaub can find andre and his tightends ... who cant hit arguably the best receiver in the last 10 years? keenum will have to adjust to andre (how hard could that be?), but he had a pretty good relationship with the young guys before even playing his first game. this gives us more legit weapons. we could have 5 hall of famers going on routes, but it wouldnt matter if schaub's only hitting 1 of them. case knows where the "other guys" are going to be.
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Old 11-03-2013   #299
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

Sean Coffey (analyst from NFL Playbook) on Keenum:

http://www.csnhouston.com/football-h...bcs&ocid=yahoo
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Old 11-03-2013   #300
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Couldn't disagree more.

It's easy to MMQB Kubiak, make decisions in a vacuum, and assume everything would've worked out the way we planned, but that's not reality. Kubiak hasn't shown Schaub any more loyalty than any other coach would have shown towards Matt given his tenure & what he has accomplished in this league (what little that may be).

Matt was pulled twice before he got game. & before he got hurt he was having a pretty good, Matt Schaub game. 98.5 passer rating, 8.9 ypa, 71% completion, no turnovers, despite being sacked 3 times.
Schaub's decline started at the New England game last year. This season, his performance can't be described as a "slump" like a golfer or basketball player; It's been a recurring shipwreck. NFL QB's don't come back from that. After the San Francisco game, what more was there to see?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Matt has looked physically better than he has in a long, long time.
Indeed, he had more spring in his step while making bad decisions.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Others constantly remind me Arian said he wasn't ready when he first got here. & just like this situation, who knows what was going to happen if Kubiak did make the switch earlier. This is one of those vacuum decisions where we assume everything would have turned out better if our wishes were granted.
I don't see how this contends with my point: His decisions based on process have been more successful than decisions based on his initial evaluations.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I honestly thought Frank Bush was the answer in 2009. We weren't a top 10 defense, but we weren't bottom 3 either. The defense showed very good progress & decisions & plans made by the F.O. didn't work out. Hard to blame Bush for all of that.

I bet if Wade didn't become available & Bum wasn't hanging out at Reliant as much as he was at the time, Bush would have got another year to redeem himself.
I thought Bush was going to be the answer too, and maybe a couple of more seasons of experience was what he needed. But we all know that's an unrealistic request in this league.

This clip at 2:47 demonstrates how unprepared Bush was for coordinating in the pros. Allowing Braylon Edwards to get the sidelines with 23 seconds and no timeouts is unacceptable.

There's also a reason to watch that video in its entirety. The Matt Schaub highlights show a much different and confident QB than what we've seen since December of last year. This contrast should've been stark for Kubiak going into this season.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Like I said earlier, Kubiak went about it the way most everyone else would have. Schaub is the starter, until he gets hurt. That's the rule for QBs & just about everyone follows it if you've got a guy who's played as well as Matt has over the last 6 years.
I'm very pleased with the hard work and accomplishments that Matt Schaub delivered over the past six years. But he lost the benefit of the doubt after the Seattle game. There's no point in reenacting the Jake Delhomme Story.
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