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Old 12-27-2012   #121
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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Our run game and bootleg don't work because teams are going to make Matt Schaub beat them. Better teams with smarter D-coordinators realize that.

Don't go out there and try to make spectacular plays. Stay true to your responsibility, load up on the run, don't bite on play-action. If you do that the the QB has almost zero chance of doing anything outside the box to make plays.

Of course the flip side of that is having your offense make some plays on our defense. If you turn the ball over and don't move the ball, we will beat you...even if it's based on a bunch of field goals....

But if you play solid defense and have an offense that can move the ball and put up points, I'm giving us 15% chance to win games.


I dont think our running game/bootleg wont work because our line isnt getting its job done. A lot of people have complained about Foster's peformance from the start of the year on, Schaub's performance. Look at the O line, if they do a better job the run game is in better shape and so is the passing game.
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Old 12-27-2012   #122
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

Lol at smart d-coordinators making Schaub beat them...smart d-coordinators are smart enough to know that Schaub will beat them if they don't blitz him or get some kind of stunt going with their d-line & lbs to get him uncomfortable on obvious 3rd & long situations.....like GB did.....like NE did.... our 2 worst losses of the season.

But in any event, that's d-coordinating 101 and is the standard formula against every qb/offense............. if you can execute it......see brady in his last 2 SB appearances.

You combine this with an o-line that's already shaky and you get what Minny did to us this past week...Sure, there were a few plays that could've been made if Schaub was a bit more mobile, but not likely enough to overcome getting dominated in the trenches though.

tremendous over-estimation of what a mobile qb could do in this thread. Andrew Luck broke out a 40 time = to Cam Newton in the combine...........couldn't move around enough to escape JJ Watt & co. when it mattered though. Ditto for Mike Vick and that turnstile offensive line he had up in Philly that got he and Nick Foles broken up.
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Old 12-27-2012   #123
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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But in any event, that's d-coordinating 101 and is the standard formula against every qb/offense............. if you can execute it......see brady in his last 2 SB appearances.

What?

Teams are not loading the box to stop the Patriots run and daring Brady to beat them.

That is exactly what they do against the Texans.
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Old 12-27-2012   #124
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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tremendous over-estimation of what a mobile qb could do in this thread. Andrew Luck broke out a 40 time = to Cam Newton in the combine...........couldn't move around enough to escape JJ Watt & co. when it mattered though. Ditto for Mike Vick and that turnstile offensive line he had up in Philly that got he and Nick Foles broken up.
Luck has taken the worst team and taken them to the playoffs in one year. His mobility has had a lot to do with it. If his RB hadn't fumbled on the goaline that game could of turned out way different. I wouldn't get to cocky about how well we can handle him until after this Sunday. Using Phili is a bad example. They have one of the worst OL in the NFL in the last few years. Rodger Staubauch couldn't escape the pressure that OL allows.

If you want a good example of what a good mobile QB can do for you go look at seatle. Wilson is by no means a "running" QB. He makes smart decisions and when put in the position he is CAPABLE of getting positive results with his legs. It's made a HUGE difference for that team.
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Old 12-27-2012   #125
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

I played QB and that's honestly a hard decision. I think Matt Schuab has a better pass and a more catch-able ball. But his mobility issue makes off timing throws impossible. And off timing throws happen quite often. Alex Smith I think can run this offense better with his running and tenacity but not to where he will make this team a Super Bowl winning team. ( if MAtt can't).
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Old 12-27-2012   #126
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

I would rather draft a QB. Or draft a Receiver to help Schuab out.
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Old 12-27-2012   #127
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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What?

Teams are not loading the box to stop the Patriots run and daring Brady to beat them.

That is exactly what they do against the Texans.
The reason their running game is successful is because teams play a 2 deep shell to keep Brady in check. They drop a man down and Brady can beat them. Their offense runs through Brady, their RB by Committee is secondary to defending Brady.

Our offense is designed in the opposite manner. We use the running game to set up the pass. If you sit in 2 deep shell we run it down your throat. You drop 8 in the box and we can sling it all over the field. When the running game has been effective we have been unstoppable on offense pretty much since 2007. Teams have to pick their poison and they would rather make Schuab beat them offensively, and more times than not he has produced significant offensive production when teams decide to do that.

The Pats running game needs Brady passing game to be effective in order to operate at the highest level of efficiency and we need our running game to be effective to operate at the highest level of efficiency.

I hate on Schuab just because he is a big dude and goes down if somebody breathes on him. He is surely big enough to break away from a finger nail tackle. Other than that the guy is a very good player...... Sure if we have Manning, Brees, Brady or Rodgers we would be unstoppable but that isn't reality.

The reality is we have a good player at QB, a good TE, a great WR, and a great WR. Our OL needs to get their stuff together asap, because skill positions are not the issue with the offense right now.

Oh, and LOL at all this Alex Smith talk. Really Alex Smith..... C'mon Man.
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Old 12-27-2012   #128
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

Wow, I don't even know why the thread is this long. It's not even a debate, Schaub is clearly the better player. CLEARLY.
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Old 12-27-2012   #129
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
What?

Teams are not loading the box to stop the Patriots run and daring Brady to beat them.

That is exactly what they do against the Texans.

Go back & read my post dude...there was a key phrase in it. It said If...you...can...execute..it...

& yeah, most teams can't do it on a consistent basis for 1 reason or another but if you watched the 49ers & Patriots game a few weeks ago you would've seen that this is exactly what the 49ers did to Brady and the Pats. the only major difference was: 1, the 49ers didn't really need to load up the box b/c they're pretty stout as is with the Smith's, Bowman & Willis & 2, the Pats got behind alot really early and were pretty much forced to abandon the run. The basic principle was still the same though..make them 1 dimensional and then make life a living hell at the LOS for the qb. Brady was getting popped every other play early on b/c the Smith's were giving the o-line hell with stunts up front and it kept him out of rhythm.

It's funny b/c the pats tried to do the same thing against kap & he burned them early on with a 40 yd strike to Moss. When we tried to do the same thing against them early deep down the sideline....here was the result:

Matt Schaub incomplete pass to the right intended for Lestar Jean.

We tried it again this past week to the same guy....and got the same result... Jean can't separate worth ****....but that's a topic for another day.

& before you start harping on it, the passes were not underthrown, poorly thrown or anything like that, Jean just couldn't come up with them.

Anyway, they load up the box against us b/c 1, they know for better & worse, (worse alot lately) we are never going to abandon the run game... 2, they know a significant portion of our passing attack comes off the run game & 3, they know we have next to nothing at WR outside of AJ & they feel comfy leaving their cb's & lb's 1 on 1 with our WR's & TE's.

Schaub's immobility & pralis as a qb is probably reason # 6789 as to why they load up the box like they do against us.

you can't just look at this stuff out of context man.
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Old 12-27-2012   #130
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Wow, I don't even know why the thread is this long. It's not even a debate, Schaub is clearly the better player. CLEARLY.
I think it's this long because a few vocal people are trying to argue Smith's case. But I think majority of people are happy to stick with Schaub over Smith.
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Old 12-27-2012   #131
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

I think either of the guys can run Kubiak's offense, thing is we have Schaub and will likely never have Smith so the debate would all seem to be wasted breath.

I was on the anti-Schaub bandwagon for a bit but realised that he is almost precisely the guy I would want to run this offense if you couldn't have a top tier talent. He is smart, careful, sells play fakes well and can make a downfield throw well enough to keep that option alive.
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Old 12-27-2012   #132
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco...all pedestrian QBs who might be able to game manage their way to the Super Bowl with great running games and great defense.

I do not see any of them being clearly better than the other. And while I like Schaub, I would not have a problem with a clear upgrade. But Smith is not clearly better than Schaub, so it's a mute point right now.
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Old 12-27-2012   #133
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco...all pedestrian QBs who might be able to game manage their way to the Super Bowl with great running games and great defense.

I do not see any of them being clearly better than the other. And while I like Schaub, I would not have a problem with a clear upgrade. But Smith is not clearly better than Schaub, so it's a mute point right now.
How about a Stafford kind of QB, a gunslinger, arguably about the same tier of QB as Schaub but completely different style. Would you prefer safe Schaub or the slinger Stafford?
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Old 12-27-2012   #134
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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco...all pedestrian QBs who might be able to game manage their way to the Super Bowl with great running games and great defense.

I do not see any of them being clearly better than the other. And while I like Schaub, I would not have a problem with a clear upgrade. But Smith is not clearly better than Schaub, so it's a mute point right now.
I agree with that. I actually think if smith had been here for a while he could be at least a little better than schaub but I'm not 100% firm in that belief. But no way would I bring in smith to take over for shammy. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you're going to do something different grab and mold your own guy(s) or take a guy high in the draft. ...of course signing a hof guy was an option this past off season but obviously wasn't meant to be....
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Old 12-27-2012   #135
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco...all pedestrian QBs who might be able to game manage their way to the Super Bowl with great running games and great defense.

I do not see any of them being clearly better than the other. And while I like Schaub, I would not have a problem with a clear upgrade. But Smith is not clearly better than Schaub, so it's a mute point right now.

Not picking on you DB .... But I see a lot of people misuse the word Mute in place of Moot and it kinda bugs me .... Definitions below!

Moot

mute.


Now that Im done playing gramar nazi ..... on to the meat of the post , I pretty much agree that each of those QB's you listed is flawed in some way.

A healthy Schaub is probably the best game manager of the bunch while Flacco has the bigest arm and most athletic but questionable decision making , while Smith falls somewhere between the two in all aspects.


Problem is , Schaub isnt healthy .... and according to C&D that foot , while satisfactorily healed is never going to be as good as new and in fact , is going to get worse with use and time. I tend to agree with his assessment .... as Schaub is proving him right with time.

This team is ready made to win now and probably has a 3-4 year window to win it all.
If Schaub isnt able to hold up to the rigors of a 16 game regular season and the playoffs .... Smith might be the best available option to replace him with.

The offenses they run are very similar and Harbaugh asks about the same of Smith that Gary does of Schaub ....

Think about the prospects of a rookie or TJ Yates .... Not to mention , they wont be in position to get one of the higher rated QB's in the draft. This tean would take several steps back under the best of circumstances with a rookie QB at the helm ... wasting that window of opporunity to win it all.


Bottom line , I'd prefer a healthy Schaub over either Flacco or Smith .... but Schaub obviously isnt the same guy post lisfranc.

Im not saying I'd go out and get the guy , just that I would entertain the possibility.
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Old 12-27-2012   #136
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How about a Stafford kind of QB, a gunslinger, arguably about the same tier of QB as Schaub but completely different style. Would you prefer safe Schaub or the slinger Stafford?
For me, stafford all day.

Stafford has all the tools. You can coach some players up and put them in better situations.

Look at cassel. When he was with the patriots he looked good. Go to an organization not as good and he looks awful.

Sage here looked pretty good. Pressed too much IMO, but he looked better here than anywhere else he went in his career.

Even David Carr looked better under kubiak than he did at other points. Rarely have qb's looked absolutely putrid here.
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Old 12-27-2012   #137
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

They both suck!

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Old 12-27-2012   #138
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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For me, stafford all day.

Stafford has all the tools. You can coach some players up and put them in better situations.

Look at cassel. When he was with the patriots he looked good. Go to an organization not as good and he looks awful.

Sage here looked pretty good. Pressed too much IMO, but he looked better here than anywhere else he went in his career.

Even David Carr looked better under kubiak than he did at other points. Rarely have qb's looked absolutely putrid here.
Gary has found ways to mask the weaknesses of these QB's .... even HWWNBM. Taking a lot of pressure off of them and making the game simple for them.
I'd really like to see what he could do with a top tier talent at the position .... a complete package guy like RG3.
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Old 12-27-2012   #139
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

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How about a Stafford kind of QB, a gunslinger, arguably about the same tier of QB as Schaub but completely different style. Would you prefer safe Schaub or the slinger Stafford?
I think Stafford has better physical skills and a higher ceiling.

And under the direction of a QB coach like Kubiak, I think the between-the-ears stuff can be taught.

I think most QBs would love this system, especially with the talent we have on offense right now. There was a reason Manning had the Texans high on his list...

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I agree with that. I actually think if smith had been here for a while he could be at least a little better than schaub but I'm not 100% firm in that belief. But no way would I bring in smith to take over for shammy. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you're going to do something different grab and mold your own guy(s) or take a guy high in the draft. ...of course signing a hof guy was an option this past off season but obviously wasn't meant to be....
Yeah, I agree about Smith if he had been coached under one system from the beginning. But I think his career has been hurt by so many coaches and so many systems. Sort of reminds me of David Carr in a way, mainly that they had potential entering the league but were ultimately damaged goods because of their experiences.

People forget one of the main reasons Kubiak wanted Schaub so bad: he played this offense in college. In the pros, dude sat on the bench for three seasons behind Vick, so it wasn't like there was a line at the Falcons' front office to make a deal for the guy. He was pretty much a clean slate when Kubiak got him, and by now we have seen his ceiling.

I like Schaub, so I'm not trying to tear him down or advocate trade. However, all that said, I really hope that none of our playoff games come down to solely resting on his shoulders. I don't have that kind of faith that he will consistently rise to the occasion. Obviously I hope to be wrong on my thoughts about our QB.

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Not picking on you DB .... But I see a lot of people misuse the word Mute in place of Moot and it kinda bugs me .... Definitions below!

Moot

mute.


Now that Im done playing gramar nazi ..... on to the meat of the post , I pretty much agree that each of those QB's you listed is flawed in some way.
That's funny, man! I honestly never knew that, so thanks for the education.

I know you're not a grammar nazi, so absolutely no offense taken. I appreciate the heads up!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
A healthy Schaub is probably the best game manager of the bunch while Flacco has the bigest arm and most athletic but questionable decision making , while Smith falls somewhere between the two in all aspects.


Problem is , Schaub isnt healthy .... and according to C&D that foot , while satisfactorily healed is never going to be as good as new and in fact , is going to get worse with use and time. I tend to agree with his assessment .... as Schaub is proving him right with time.

This team is ready made to win now and probably has a 3-4 year window to win it all.
If Schaub isnt able to hold up to the rigors of a 16 game regular season and the playoffs .... Smith might be the best available option to replace him with.

The offenses they run are very similar and Harbaugh asks about the same of Smith that Gary does of Schaub ....

Think about the prospects of a rookie or TJ Yates .... Not to mention , they wont be in position to get one of the higher rated QB's in the draft. This tean would take several steps back under the best of circumstances with a rookie QB at the helm ... wasting that window of opporunity to win it all.


Bottom line , I'd prefer a healthy Schaub over either Flacco or Smith .... but Schaub obviously isnt the same guy post lisfranc.

Im not saying I'd go out and get the guy , just that I would entertain the possibility.
I agree completely. Right now we dance with the one that brought us. If there is a clear upgrade, take it! But I do not think Kubiak will do it. I think he believes in Schaub and truly thinks that he is a QB that can take us to the promised land. Nobody wants that to happen more than Kubiak, whose career hinges on it at the end of the day.
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Old 12-27-2012   #140
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Default Re: Who's better Schaub or A Smith?

I would like to see how they fare if the shoe was reverse from their playing career, Shaub playing through all the carousel of coaches and systems for seven years and Smith playing under one coach and one system. I think Schaub becomes a mess and won't see year 5 with SF. Smith with a legit threat in AJ has reason to throw it deep and thus is never develop into a game manager like he is now. We be in 1 more playoffs but still no super bowl.

Smith under the right system proved he can be successful. He even played well enough in the playoff to win. So the question if can perform in playoffs is already answered while Schaub is still a big ?

Now let's ask this question: If Smith played under Harbaugh the same amount Schaub had with Kubiak, how ridiculous this thread would be. So the folks here saying Smith can't hold Schaub jock strap is severely unfair.

Smith is better. But he's still not our answer to the SB if he was our QB.

Last edited by klockWork; 12-27-2012 at 08:23 PM.
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