Best black QB?

[bigtex77]

OK, I had a disagreement a few years ago with a co-worker over who was the best black QB of all time. I stated that I thought it was Warren Moon, but he disagreed, saying it was Doug Williams, beacuse he had won a Super Bowl. My counter point was "So is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino?" He said yes! Just wanted to get your takes on it.

[bigtex77]

Originally Posted by Vinny

What does black have to do with anything?

At the time, Vick, Culpepper and McNabb weren't even in the league, we were just stting around having a conversation about black QB's because there weren't many starting, and that question came up. It wasn't a black vs white thing, I just made the statemant, and he disagreed.

[bigtex77]

Originally Posted by Vinny

Doug Williamson was a great QB. Black or White. So was Moon.

I agree, I hope I didn't offend anyone by asking, that was not my intent, only to get opinions.

[swtbound07]

eh, i aint offended...will throw my 2 cents in for randall cunningham though

[sprtsfanatic]

Originally Posted by swtbound07

eh, i aint offended...will throw my 2 cents in for randall cunningham though

no way in hell would randall cunningham be the best african american qb...thats just absurd...especially with the likes of Moon, Culpepper, Vick

and no winning a SB doesnt automatically make you a better qb...just that you have played on a "better/together" team.

[ArlingtonTexan]

Moon had the best career...williams did more for getting of rid the notion that a Black Qb could not win...Cunningham probably the more exciting player...McNair should be in the conversasion.

I think when it is all said done with thier careers McNabb and Culpepper will rank ahead of all of these guys. Until Vick learns how to pass better, he will be the most exciting player in the NFL, but far from a really good QB.

There will a next generation coming into the NFL, Omar Jacobs, Vince Young, Reggie McNeil, Chris Leak..They come with different abilities and styles...the best thing is that each generation of Black QBs can worry more about being the QB part of the equation and not the other part.

[texasguy346]

I really like what I've seen of Chris Leak. He looks like he'll be a great QB, and I'll certainly be following his career when he jumps to the NFL.

[TopTexanFan16]

Originally Posted by sprtsfanatic

no way in hell would randall cunningham be the best african american qb...thats just absurd...especially with the likes of Moon, Culpepper, Vick

and no winning a SB doesnt automatically make you a better qb...just that you have played on a "better/together" team.

dude vick is hardly a QB......

[nunusguy]

Warren Moon was one of the greatest QBs of our time. Period. Kinda work
I've done, it's taken me around the country the last 12-14 years or so and I've run across so many NFL fans of Moon and the Oilers Run N' Shoot from the glory days of both.
And being from the KC area, people up there still to this
day talk about the day Warren and the Run N' Shoot blew away a really
tremendous Chiefs D at Arrowhead stadium back in the early 90s. Can remember yet Schottenheimer (the Chiefs HC at the time), saying he would have bet anything that nobody could waste that great secondary the Chiefs had at that time. And one of the most special things of the day - Moon left the game early in the 4th Q after the Oilers and Moon had put the game out of reach - knowing how easy it would be for him to set a new single game passing record but passing up that opportunity. A more glory hungry QB (for reference see Peyton Manning/Indy Colts in 2004 season), would have been flinging passed until
the very end of the game - regardless of the lead his team had.
I never realized how much people throughout the country enjoyed watching
the Oilers Run N' Shoot and I don't think anybody could have run it as well as
Warren. He was a great QB and a Hall-of-Famer for sure !

[Tedc]

Originally Posted by Vinny

Doug Williamson was a great QB.

Who is that?

I agree. There shouldn't be a color put on the QB.

That is like saying at work that there is a black employee of the month and a white one. Then we would need one for Hispanic, Asian, etc.

We have to get out of that way of thinking.

Of course, if you are talking about the best QB ever, you would not be talking about Moon or Williams either.

[sprtsfanatic]

Originally Posted by TopTexanFan16

dude vick is hardly a QB......

If not...then what position does he play? and on top of that...he's still better than cunningham ever was.


On another note....point well taken by the person who mentioned Steve Mcnair...he is a great one, and so is D. Mcnabb. And yes there seem to be more very talented qb's that will be entering the NFL here soon.

[bigtex77]

Originally Posted by Amazing Race

The original question, I think, was does winning a SB automatically make you a better QB.

Yes, this was supposed to be the point of the thread, i think the way I worded the question kind of threw things off a bit.

[Hervoyel]

Winning a single Super Bowl does make you a little bit better QB than you would be if you had not won it and winning four of them makes you Terry Bradshaw and a member of the NFL Hall of Fame.

Some guys are great QB's regardless of their trips to and record in the Super Bowl. Dan Marino was a great QB. Peyton Manning is a great QB and will be one if he continues at this pace but never gets his team to a Super Bowl. Guys like that (and Warren Moon for instance) are great because they're great. They'd be considered "greater" though if they had a ring or two. Fran Tarkenton is a great QB and he doesn't have a single ring. Doesn't matter, he was IMO a great QB.

Then there are guys who are good QB's but they reach greatness by getting a ring. I think of Bradshaw as being one of these. but of course anyone gets 4 Super Bowl rings and he's in. No two ways about that.

I also consider a guy like Jim Plunkett to be in this catagory. Doug Williams was here (towards the bottom I think) and so was Phil Simms (again, towards the bottom). Without the rings these QB's do not get to be widely considered "great".

For the record I have Joe Montana and Tom Brady right between the top of this group and the bottom of the previous one.

Finally you've got QB's who are not great, ring or no ring. Maybe they had a great season, or maybe they had a great game (and got a ring) but they aren't "great" in my book. These guys need multiple rings to move any higher. One ring alone doesn't elevate them like it would a better QB from the next group up.

Trent Dilfer has a ring, he is not a "great QB" IMO.

Kurt Warner has a ring, he is also not a "great QB" IMO.

Jim McMahon has a ring and I do not believe he is a great QB.

As for the whole black QB angle I don't see the point. Asking who "the best black QB is" is just like asking who "the best QB is" except your tossing out a bunch of the candidates because they're white before you even get started. You have all the same problems. Comparing guys with drastically different games who played for different coaches/teams in different eras and in different systems.

Statistically it's Moon I think. If you go by rings it's Williams because he's the only one who has one (I think?). If you talk about raw athleticism then isn't it Vick with a young Cunningham coming in second? Winning percentage might be someone else (McNabb or Culpepper? I don't know) but it's all just speculation.

[DRIFTAWAY]

Rohan Davies has a ring so is he better then Marino? Exactly. A QB with a ring doesnt show that he was great, it could have been a record- breaking historical defense. He might have had like a Torry Holt and Terrel Owens and Randy Moss at his recieving spots. Although leading your team to a super bowl is good, it could have been the defense that really led the team to a superbowl. IMHO i think Dilfer is out of the league right now if it wasn't for that ring.

[Hervoyel]

Originally Posted by DRIFTAWAY

Rohan Davies has a ring so is he better then Marino? Exactly. A QB with a ring doesnt show that he was great, it could have been a record- breaking historical defense. He might have had like a Torry Holt and Terrel Owens and Randy Moss at his recieving spots. Although leading your team to a super bowl is good, it could have been the defense that really led the team to a superbowl. IMHO i think Dilfer is out of the league right now if it wasn't for that ring.

The ring only matters in cases where the QB played in the Super Bowl that the ring was won in. Steve Young for instance does not benefit from rings he has that he got from standing on the sidelines watching Joe Montana work. He does however gain "greatness points" for the ring he won while starting. Rings earned while doing clip board duty are meaningless.

[TopTexanFan16]

Originally Posted by sprtsfanatic

If not...then what position does he play? and on top of that...he's still better than cunningham ever was.


On another note....point well taken by the person who mentioned Steve Mcnair...he is a great one, and so is D. Mcnabb. And yes there seem to be more very talented qb's that will be entering the NFL here soon.

hey i never said he wasnt a QB i said he was hardly one. read what i write before you criticize.

[swtbound07]

its too early in vicks career to call him the greatest.....but i'll put randall cunningham up against warren moon...he was the first of his kind, a true running quarterback, and had an entire league gameplanning around him for almost his entire career

[rittenhouserobz]

Personally, I don't consider Vick a great QB. He just can't throw well enough yet. Moon, Culpepper, McNabb, and Doug Williams. They all played the position well. Cunningham was overrated in my opinion. He was exciting at times, but never won the SB and didn't break records. Had Moon played his entire career in the NFL then Dan Marino may not have so many records right now. IMHO

[ArlingtonTexan]

to answer question of whether the Supeerbowl matters, one way or another. It matters if you are comparing to QBs of similiar stature and trying to decside if one is better than the other. If you want to argue Fouts or Marino versus Montana, then the rings matter, but a Superbowl ring does not take a mediocore QB say Dilfer or Brad Johnson and turn them into Bret Favre because they all have 1 Superbowl ring.

[sprtsfanatic]

Originally Posted by Hervoyel

Winning a single Super Bowl does make you a little bit better QB than you would be if you had not won it and winning four of them makes you Terry Bradshaw and a member of the NFL Hall of Fame.

Some guys are great QB's regardless of their trips to and record in the Super Bowl. Dan Marino was a great QB. Peyton Manning is a great QB and will be one if he continues at this pace but never gets his team to a Super Bowl. Guys like that (and Warren Moon for instance) are great because they're great. They'd be considered "greater" though if they had a ring or two. Fran Tarkenton is a great QB and he doesn't have a single ring. Doesn't matter, he was IMO a great QB.

Then there are guys who are good QB's but they reach greatness by getting a ring. I think of Bradshaw as being one of these. but of course anyone gets 4 Super Bowl rings and he's in. No two ways about that.

I also consider a guy like Jim Plunkett to be in this catagory. Doug Williams was here (towards the bottom I think) and so was Phil Simms (again, towards the bottom). Without the rings these QB's do not get to be widely considered "great".

For the record I have Joe Montana and Tom Brady right between the top of this group and the bottom of the previous one.

Finally you've got QB's who are not great, ring or no ring. Maybe they had a great season, or maybe they had a great game (and got a ring) but they aren't "great" in my book. These guys need multiple rings to move any higher. One ring alone doesn't elevate them like it would a better QB from the next group up.

Trent Dilfer has a ring, he is not a "great QB" IMO.

Kurt Warner has a ring, he is also not a "great QB" IMO.

Jim McMahon has a ring and I do not believe he is a great QB.

As for the whole black QB angle I don't see the point. Asking who "the best black QB is" is just like asking who "the best QB is" except your tossing out a bunch of the candidates because they're white before you even get started. You have all the same problems. Comparing guys with drastically different games who played for different coaches/teams in different eras and in different systems.

Statistically it's Moon I think. If you go by rings it's Williams because he's the only one who has one (I think?). If you talk about raw athleticism then isn't it Vick with a young Cunningham coming in second? Winning percentage might be someone else (McNabb or Culpepper? I don't know) but it's all just speculation.

Now thats a hell of a breakdown and I dont think anyone could state it anybetter. Nice post Hervoyel