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Old 12-18-2012   #21
steelbtexan
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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I think your point is good, the premise is the only thing I questioned.

This is a much better argument.

The only thing is that I wish Newton had never gotten hurt. Don't know where his game would be if not for that. I more or less like all the guys on our OL. Newton & Jones just need time. Myers.... well he's starting to tick me off. Smith has been playing better than I thought & I love the big guy (76).

But, I think we need to improve the pedigree of our offense. We need more 1st round pick, or more guys who expect to win. These last two seasons will help our offense with the latter.

At the same time, we're going to draft someone. I'd rather draft a 1st round offensive big ugly than a defensive big ugly. Because I want to blow people off the line. We did it with Eric & Briesel, so maybe Newton & Jones can get it done.

So I would have no problem taking an OG, targeting the veteran LG, or even a Center. If we have the opportunity to get better....
MSR

Your words are much better than mine.

Hopefully Rick/Gary/Wade truly go BPA.
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Old 12-18-2012   #22
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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The news about Nix surprises me as I thought he was leaving for certain. Kelly must have got him drunk and whispered in his ear. Nix almost left last year. I guess his Irish Chocolate followers convinced him to ride the wave of popularity. Wow. Jesse Williams an early guy for me has moved up & I just cannot get a good read on Sylvester. He has done well when I have focused on him but he turned 24 last month and I want to see if he can keep the weight off. He is quicker and looke good against Virginia. He also has a rep for taking plays off but I have not seen that. It is possible with Nix gone, if S.Williams has a good combine he will climb into late 20s. He is ranked 69. If I knew he would be there in second....

SHort has a rep for not playing 100% but I guess if he can his stats as he has he might be an option. This is same issue I have with Sylvester and not sure that type play translates to NFL. Whomever we draft at NT will have to play hard every play.
Here's how I evaluate the 3 guys remaining that fit our system, Jesse Williams, Sylvester Williams, and Kawann Short.

J. Williams, I see him as a guy with great strength who can hold the double teams or push a single blocker backwards and collapse the pocket though he's not a good penetrating NT because he lacks the athletic quickness. To me he's more of a traditional brickwall NT with good straight ahead speed but lacks lateral agility to make the tackle on plays that don't come right at him. Great strength, good straight line speed, poor lateral agility/quickness. He's #3 on my list.

S. Williams, I see him more as a 4-3 UT with great quickness, great swim move, great penetrating ability, lateral agility, speed, and athleticism, but he lacks some strength to hold up to double teams or collapse the pocket consistently. Luckily once he gets on an NFL strength and conditioning program he'll gain that core strength in his legs to anchor and hold up to double teams, but it might take a year. He's more of a quick penetrating NT, in our 1 gap system, that can pressure the QB. He's #2 on my list.

K. Short, he's a combo of the 2 Williams, he's got the strength in his core and legs to hold the double teams and collapse the pocket against single blockers. He's got enough quickness and lateral agility to penetrate and play the run and also has a 2nd gear when in the clear that he's got good speed and able to chase a play that doesn't come his way. S. Williams is better at penetrating, J. Williams is better at holding the LOS, while K. Short has got both skills and will get even better in an NFL program. Imagine a strong penetrating big nasty lined up next to JJ Watt, it would take 4 O-linemen to properly block them. He's #1 on my list.


As for taking plays off, I'm not to worried about it. 320 lbs. college linemen get winded and in college aren't in the best physical condition that they'll be in a year after getting drafted. The NFL level strength and conditioning programs will improve their stamina and I think our core players won't let rookies become slackers. With Watt in one ear and Antonio Smith in the other and Cushing behind him a rookie would be to scared not to give full effort.

On a personal note I sure hope Rick Smith can extend Antonio Smith 2-3 yrs. and lower his cap hit, he means so much to this team that most people don't see.
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Old 12-18-2012   #23
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

My biggest needs in order are:
1-CB
2-RT
3-DT
4-ILB
5-WR
6-S
7-TE/FB
8-RB
9-OLB
10-LG
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Old 12-18-2012   #24
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
Here's how I evaluate the 3 guys remaining that fit our system, Jesse Williams, Sylvester Williams, and Kawann Short.

J. Williams, I see him as a guy with great strength who can hold the double teams or push a single blocker backwards and collapse the pocket though he's not a good penetrating NT because he lacks the athletic quickness. To me he's more of a traditional brickwall NT with good straight ahead speed but lacks lateral agility to make the tackle on plays that don't come right at him. Great strength, good straight line speed, poor lateral agility/quickness. He's #3 on my list.

S. Williams, I see him more as a 4-3 UT with great quickness, great swim move, great penetrating ability, lateral agility, speed, and athleticism, but he lacks some strength to hold up to double teams or collapse the pocket consistently. Luckily once he gets on an NFL strength and conditioning program he'll gain that core strength in his legs to anchor and hold up to double teams, but it might take a year. He's more of a quick penetrating NT, in our 1 gap system, that can pressure the QB. He's #2 on my list.

K. Short, he's a combo of the 2 Williams, he's got the strength in his core and legs to hold the double teams and collapse the pocket against single blockers. He's got enough quickness and lateral agility to penetrate and play the run and also has a 2nd gear when in the clear that he's got good speed and able to chase a play that doesn't come his way. S. Williams is better at penetrating, J. Williams is better at holding the LOS, while K. Short has got both skills and will get even better in an NFL program. Imagine a strong penetrating big nasty lined up next to JJ Watt, it would take 4 O-linemen to properly block them. He's #1 on my list.


As for taking plays off, I'm not to worried about it. 320 lbs. college linemen get winded and in college aren't in the best physical condition that they'll be in a year after getting drafted. The NFL level strength and conditioning programs will improve their stamina and I think our core players won't let rookies become slackers. With Watt in one ear and Antonio Smith in the other and Cushing behind him a rookie would be to scared not to give full effort.

On a personal note I sure hope Rick Smith can extend Antonio Smith 2-3 yrs. and lower his cap hit, he means so much to this team that most people don't see.
Google Brandon Williams, he's #2 on my list. Big athletic guy who's only going to get better.

Last edited by steelbtexan; 12-18-2012 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012   #25
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Looks like you put some thought into your post. I've tried to mock a corner but don't see any after say mid second that thrills me. TBH I did not spend much time on college corners or safeties. Early I was going to follow U.Texas guys but that fizzled quickly. Any recommendations for late 2nd or after? I think Slay will do well at either.

Barwin, do we need an OLB that does not get to QB consistently at even a low contract? If Watt had turned out to be a normal DE, we would be a hurtin'. I say bye bye Connor and draft an OLB.

RB, if you can watch Cierre Wood when Notre Dame plays Alabama.
im having the same problem about the guys after the mid 2nd round. but 2 guys i have been looking at is Travis howard from Ohio and sanders commings from georgia. To bigger type CBs you fill run lanes well. both a little suspect when deep but in the short to middle areas are quite good. travis looks like around a 3-4th round while commings a 4-5th around pick.
Havnt seen slay play yet but have read a little about him could be intriguing.

barwin is a tough one i find it hard to get rid of a guy who was our leading sack getter last year. it will come down to what value you can get in the draft and how much he wants his contract to be.

i have watched ND a bit but i focus a lot on the defence, there offence apart from eifert is pretty meh. but ill look out for wood
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Old 12-19-2012   #26
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

Best value(on Texans' board) player available NT, DE, ILB, OLB, OT, S positions in not particular order. Rick Smith seems to me always talk about value when they draft someone. Plus Wade's factor. Seems to me Wade has strong say in drafting player on early rounds. So, I think 1st rd goes to D as this will be Wade's second draft and he may need some more pieces of puzzle to make D more dominate. Remember, Wade had 4-3 guys and turned those players to 3-4 guys and he may want a few more 3-4 scheme suitable players from this draft. Just a thought.
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Old 12-19-2012   #27
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Google Brandon Williams, he's #2 on my list. Big athletic guy who's only going to get better.
I've heard his name batted around in here a few times and just got finished watching some video on him. He seems to have good size, good strength, decent straight ahead speed, but lacks lateral athleticism/agility. He looks raw and for an NFL prospect I would expect him to dominate at his level of college football but just didn't see it. Granted it was a small sampling of video but he never just dominated against lower level talent though other teams do seem to go away from him quite often. He does play the inside run very well. I could see him being a good draft pick in the late 3rd-5th round to a team that already has an established NT and someone that can afford to let him learn and grow as a player for a couple years. He does seem to have the basics and potential to be much better. Unfortunately I don't think the Texans have that luxury unless we double up on NT in the draft. With Cody most likely leaving in FA and Mitchell not capable of handling NT by himself, I think we have to take a NT early.
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Old 12-19-2012   #28
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

it's tough picking this late to add starter quality to a team already well rounded. seems like most available now will need more practice/adjustment before PT (cb,nt) identifying bpa most ready to contribute will be a big factor even if not vaunted nt position which I was just about ready to wrap a big Texan bow on him & put under the Christmas tree.

Timekiller's list:
1-CB
2-RT
3-DT
4-ILB
5-WR
6-S
7-TE/FB
8-RB
9-OLB
10-LG

is a good list but it may be easier to find a need like #4 ILB in that late 1st early 2nd window? so would you circumvent hierarchy of needs & take Alec Ogletree, Gerogia ILB? as it shakes down he may be bpa, a player that could impact defense, next to Cushing solidify the ILB position.
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Old 12-19-2012   #29
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

Alec Ogletree? Alex Okafor is the Texas DE.

And as we have discussed in the PMs, I am a huge fan of Ogletree.
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Old 12-19-2012   #30
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
I've heard his name batted around in here a few times and just got finished watching some video on him. He seems to have good size, good strength, decent straight ahead speed, but lacks lateral athleticism/agility. He looks raw and for an NFL prospect I would expect him to dominate at his level of college football but just didn't see it. Granted it was a small sampling of video but he never just dominated against lower level talent though other teams do seem to go away from him quite often. He does play the inside run very well. I could see him being a good draft pick in the late 3rd-5th round to a team that already has an established NT and someone that can afford to let him learn and grow as a player for a couple years. He does seem to have the basics and potential to be much better. Unfortunately I don't think the Texans have that luxury unless we double up on NT in the draft. With Cody most likely leaving in FA and Mitchell not capable of handling NT by himself, I think we have to take a NT early.
He can handle the 2 down run stopper role. He's got the ability to be so much more. Brandon can be a Jesse Williams type NT, maybe even better, he's got the ability. I can understand your concerns about drafting a small school guy and giving him such a prominent role right away. BTW, unlike alot of small school guys, Brandon Williams is also a high character guy, from what I've read.
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Old 12-19-2012   #31
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Alec Ogletree? Alex Okafor is the Texas DE.

And as we have discussed in the PMs, I am a huge fan of Ogletree.
I'm not a fan of Ogletree is an ILB. But he would be a fit at WOLB.

Ogletree reminds me of Danielle Ellerbe. A good player, will play for 10 yrs but not be a difference maker.
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Old 12-19-2012   #32
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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He can handle the 2 down run stopper role. He's got the ability to be so much more. Brandon can be a Jesse Williams type NT, maybe even better, he's got the ability. I can understand your concerns about drafting a small school guy and giving him such a prominent role right away. BTW, unlike alot of small school guys, Brandon Williams is also a high character guy, from what I've read.
Agree 100%

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I'm not a fan of Ogletree is an ILB. But he would be a fit at WOLB.

Ogletree reminds me of Danielle Ellerbe. A good player, will play for 10 yrs but not be a difference maker.
Disagree 100%.

As I wrote in a PM to badboy and BL when trying to convince them of Ogletree's awesomeness "At 235 lbs Olgetree is a little light now... but he has a large frame. I think he could get to 245-250 without losing his athleticism. The dude is a playmaker, and great in coverage (used to be a safety). He can blitz, he can tackle, he can cover. Every time I watch Georgia he sticks out because he flat out makes plays."

I think Ogletree will be a fantastic playmaker.

This year (either his 2nd or 3rd playing ILB... in a 3-4 no less) he has 98 tackles, 8.5 TFL, 2 sacks, 1 INT, 5 breakups, and 6 hurries... in 9 games. He needs to get bigger, but I think he is perfect for the D.
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Old 12-19-2012   #33
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
it's tough picking this late to add starter quality to a team already well rounded. seems like most available now will need more practice/adjustment before PT (cb,nt) identifying bpa most ready to contribute will be a big factor even if not vaunted nt position which I was just about ready to wrap a big Texan bow on him & put under the Christmas tree.

Timekiller's list:
1-CB
2-RT
3-DT
4-ILB
5-WR
6-S
7-TE/FB
8-RB
9-OLB
10-LG

is a good list but it may be easier to find a need like #4 ILB in that late 1st early 2nd window? so would you circumvent hierarchy of needs & take Alex Okafor, Gerogia ILB? as it shakes down he may be bpa, a player that could impact defense, next to Cushing solidify the ILB position.
I just hope they take BPA. If they do the pick should be Patterson or Williams.
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Old 12-19-2012   #34
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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I'm not a fan of Ogletree is an ILB. But he would be a fit at WOLB.

Ogletree reminds me of Danielle Ellerbe. A good player, will play for 10 yrs but not be a difference maker.
not out of question for a top end linebacker to fit both inside or outside. Cushing was a DE @ USC then SAM LB. Started as a SAM LB for Texans in 4-3 then switched & found a home ILB in Wade Phillips 3-4.
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Old 12-19-2012   #35
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Agree 100%



Disagree 100%.

As I wrote in a PM to badboy and BL when trying to convince them of Ogletree's awesomeness "At 235 lbs Olgetree is a little light now... but he has a large frame. I think he could get to 245-250 without losing his athleticism. The dude is a playmaker, and great in coverage (used to be a safety). He can blitz, he can tackle, he can cover. Every time I watch Georgia he sticks out because he flat out makes plays."

I think Ogletree will be a fantastic playmaker.

This year (either his 2nd or 3rd playing ILB... in a 3-4 no less) he has 98 tackles, 8.5 TFL, 2 sacks, 1 INT, 5 breakups, and 6 hurries... in 9 games. He needs to get bigger, but I think he is perfect for the D.
I could be underrating him due to Alabama running the ball down Georgia's throat.
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Old 12-19-2012   #36
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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I could be underrating him due to Alabama running the ball down Georgia's throat.
Ha, Alabama runs the ball down everybody's throat.
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Old 12-19-2012   #37
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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I could be underrating him due to Alabama running the ball down Georgia's throat.
exactly & who was there making those stops? Alec had 11 tackles, 9 solo with one tkl for loss. Jenkins had 6 tackles & one sack not bad for a nose against that great OL. Jarvis also had 6 tackles with two sacks.
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Old 12-19-2012   #38
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post

Timekiller's list:
1-CB
2-RT
3-DT
4-ILB
5-WR
6-S
7-TE/FB
8-RB
9-OLB
10-LG

is a good list but it may be easier to find a need like #4 ILB in that late 1st early 2nd window? so would you circumvent hierarchy of needs & take Alec Ogletree, Gerogia ILB? as it shakes down he may be bpa, a player that could impact defense, next to Cushing solidify the ILB position.
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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
I just hope they take BPA.
x2 on the bpa. Lack of depth behind starting CBs, underwhelming options at nickel/dime, prevalence of spread offenses requiring nickel corners to play basically starting roles and the depth at ILB/NT isn't quite as dry as a position with a much higher impact on the game.

The only two teams to beat us? Spread offenses, great QBs. I would accept pass rusher as a need but the backend is just too thin. Teams that gave us trouble in victories? Lions? Spread 'em out. Jags? Tried to. Cutler&Marshall probably would've had a field day if not for the rain/sludge game.
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Old 12-19-2012   #39
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Default Re: Your opinions on Texans draft changing?

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Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
x2 on the bpa. Lack of depth behind starting CBs, underwhelming options at nickel/dime, prevalence of spread offenses requiring nickel corners to play basically starting roles and the depth at ILB/NT isn't quite as dry as a position with a much higher impact on the game.

The only two teams to beat us? Spread offenses, great QBs. I would accept pass rusher as a need but the backend is just too thin. Teams that gave us trouble in victories? Lions? Spread 'em out. Jags? Tried to. Cutler&Marshall probably would've had a field day if not for the rain/sludge game.
or because he was knocked out by a LB
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Old 12-19-2012   #40
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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
If you improve the middle of this defense with an elite NT w/Cushing returning next season just how many points per game over 28 would be necessary?

With Kubiaks conservative nature I see them addressing ability to improve ball control/time of possession. In my last mock, after taking Jenkins I identified two OT's both bolstering right & left sides. As well ball control WR & blocking TE. Defensively, besides addressing nose also selected two stud LB's one inside Kiko Alonzo & one OLB in Whitney Mercilus teammate last season @ Illinois, Michael Buchanan who has ideal length 6'5" & is a bender with speed @ 245.

edit: nevermind Jenkins is returning for his Senior season @ Georgia http://blogs.ajc.com/uga-sports-blog...ga_sports_blog
Good for Jenkins.

He is a guy that might actually be able to raise his draft status.
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