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Old 12-13-2012   #41
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

I haven't watched wilfolk much but one of my random thoughts during the game was that he was playing with a chip on his shoulder and was tired of hearing about Watt
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Old 12-13-2012   #42
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by Everlong View Post
As far as why the offense bogged down I said before the game in one of the threads here how Kubiak approached attacking the Patriots was going to be clutch. If he came out and tried to establish the run to set up the pass the Texans would struggle. Conversely if they game out and mixed the Pats up with play action on early down they would have a much higher degree of success. Kubiak went the direction of what he always does and the Pats were very prepared for it.
I do remember you saying that.
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Old 12-13-2012   #43
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

I am hoping (a big one at that) is that in the second hall. Kubiak was running plays to see how the Patriots was going to attack the formations. I realize not having graham hurt the two TE set,but middle of the third my other random thought was that hopefully Kubiak was not opening the offense up as to not let the Pats get more game film to study if we were to meet up again in a little over a month.

Maybe my irrational thought is the reason I didn't get upset during the game or have been nonchalant about the loss.

Maybe I am blinded by homer glasses too. Time will well
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Old 12-13-2012   #44
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
I am hoping (a big one at that) is that in the second hall. Kubiak was running plays to see how the Patriots was going to attack the formations. I realize not having graham hurt the two TE set,but middle of the third my other random thought was that hopefully Kubiak was not opening the offense up as to not let the Pats get more game film to study if we were to meet up again in a little over a month.

Maybe my irrational thought is the reason I didn't get upset during the game or have been nonchalant about the loss.

Maybe I am blinded by homer glasses too. Time will well
Being that Belichick has been there & done that, I can see him doing something like this. Kubiak.... I don't think he has the gnads to even try it.

He wasn't sharp enough to do it in the preseason against the Saints when the game was meaningless last year, doubt he'd do it when we still need every win we can get. We haven't even won our division.
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Old 12-13-2012   #45
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
I haven't watched wilfolk much but one of my random thoughts during the game was that he was playing with a chip on his shoulder and was tired of hearing about Watt
I have a feeling Belichick may have brought it up during the week once or twice.....per hour.
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Old 12-14-2012   #46
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

I think if our offense played our defense every series, we would look like we did against the Pats. It's a bit ironic, but our defense does everything that gives our offense problems, and now we're getting our own medicine.

From what we've been doing most of the season, this offense to me seems to be built on destroying zone defenses. From the play action that opens the middle of the field by attacking the line backer drops to the route designs that attack zones by having multiple receivers in the same are of the field but at different depths.

However, there is a lot of truth the old football cliche of taking what the defense gives you. When you run into a defensive coordinator with enough faith in his guys to man up on us, even when he has inferior talent, we allow ourselves to run into brick walls over and over again.

When teams play aggressive 8 man fronts against us, they take away the run, full stop. I think one of the big problems of the zone blocking scheme, particularly the stretch, is that it develops slower, and it just becomes a numbers game. Unless you blow the other team off the line or the backside is so undisciplined Arian hits a big cutback lane, we're not going anywhere.


This is all schematic problems. Now we get to talent. Andre Johnson is my favorite player of all time. He's still a very good player and he's a warrior, but he's just not what he used to be physically. We can argue stats and eye ball tests and medical discussions of expected recovery and peak performance loss all day, but in the end, no one would have maned up with no safety help on us 3 years ago. It just didn't happen.

Belichick, being the evil genius that he was, gambled on that. We didn't throw deep to AJ once, that I remember.

There's a second problem. I'm more pro than anti Schaub, but I can admit he has several flaws. His biggest strength is reading coverage and making the best decision within a play. This is huge against zone or zone blitz, as some routes are dead from the start of the play and some are wide open.
Much of this goes out the window against man coverage. It's up to the wide receiver to win, and it's up to Schaub to fit the ball into a much tighter window, which, unfortunately, is one thing he is frustratingly bad, or at least wildly inconsistent with: hitting people in stride or putting the ball on the inside/outside shoulder, depending on the coverage.

Topping it all off, we have a very inflexible offense. Just from watching our games and a bunch of others, I would argue we have more plays that are either brilliant or terrible before the ball is snapped. Kubiak does not take what the defense is giving him, he want to impose his will and his vision of the game on the defense. Unless you have superior talent/execution, that will lead to very inconsistent results. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you lose big (Schaub does do a good job of limiting these plays to sacks/throw aways instead of turnovers). That sound like our offense this season to anyone else?

And then, you run into someone like Belichick, who understands what you want to do, makes the right gambles in taking away your strengths and makes you adapt. We didn't adapt.

I still believe we have a team capable of winning the Super Bowl, but that's entirely dependent on Kubiak learning from his mistakes. We'll find out if he can soon enough.
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Old 12-14-2012   #47
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by run-david-run View Post
I think if our offense played our defense every series, we would look like we did against the Pats. It's a bit ironic, but our defense does everything that gives our offense problems, and now we're getting our own medicine.

From what we've been doing most of the season, this offense to me seems to be built on destroying zone defenses. From the play action that opens the middle of the field by attacking the line backer drops to the route designs that attack zones by having multiple receivers in the same are of the field but at different depths.

However, there is a lot of truth the old football cliche of taking what the defense gives you. When you run into a defensive coordinator with enough faith in his guys to man up on us, even when he has inferior talent, we allow ourselves to run into brick walls over and over again.

When teams play aggressive 8 man fronts against us, they take away the run, full stop. I think one of the big problems of the zone blocking scheme, particularly the stretch, is that it develops slower, and it just becomes a numbers game. Unless you blow the other team off the line or the backside is so undisciplined Arian hits a big cutback lane, we're not going anywhere.


This is all schematic problems. Now we get to talent. Andre Johnson is my favorite player of all time. He's still a very good player and he's a warrior, but he's just not what he used to be physically. We can argue stats and eye ball tests and medical discussions of expected recovery and peak performance loss all day, but in the end, no one would have maned up with no safety help on us 3 years ago. It just didn't happen.

Belichick, being the evil genius that he was, gambled on that. We didn't throw deep to AJ once, that I remember.

There's a second problem. I'm more pro than anti Schaub, but I can admit he has several flaws. His biggest strength is reading coverage and making the best decision within a play. This is huge against zone or zone blitz, as some routes are dead from the start of the play and some are wide open.
Much of this goes out the window against man coverage. It's up to the wide receiver to win, and it's up to Schaub to fit the ball into a much tighter window, which, unfortunately, is one thing he is frustratingly bad, or at least wildly inconsistent with: hitting people in stride or putting the ball on the inside/outside shoulder, depending on the coverage.

Topping it all off, we have a very inflexible offense. Just from watching our games and a bunch of others, I would argue we have more plays that are either brilliant or terrible before the ball is snapped. Kubiak does not take what the defense is giving him, he want to impose his will and his vision of the game on the defense. Unless you have superior talent/execution, that will lead to very inconsistent results. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you lose big (Schaub does do a good job of limiting these plays to sacks/throw aways instead of turnovers). That sound like our offense this season to anyone else?

And then, you run into someone like Belichick, who understands what you want to do, makes the right gambles in taking away your strengths and makes you adapt. We didn't adapt.

I still believe we have a team capable of winning the Super Bowl, but that's entirely dependent on Kubiak learning from his mistakes. We'll find out if he can soon enough.


And spot on.

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Old 12-14-2012   #48
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

To add to what I posted earlier, I also think our offense is a victim of the (previous) defensive success. When our D was shutting people down ( I know, it seems like years ago), it made sense to play the game Kubiak did: run the ball, take the occasional shot, and if it doesn't work run a draw and third down, let the D dominate, and do it all over again.

We went out of our way to water down the offense, ensuring fewer turnovers and fewer bad things in general, relying on the overall balance of our team to grind the opposition into submission. Obivously, we're 11-2, it's worked. However, when one or both sides aren't pulling the ball, which happened very quickly in both losses, it all goes out the window.

A lot is made of the old "learning how to win" thing with young teams. We went through plenty of that, letting bad teams beat us in the 4th quarter. We learned how to close those games out. We basically learned how to be consistent and use one unit to help the other (running the ball to chew up clock, for instance).

But I think we evolved differently from the way most good teams develop. Most good young teams have flashes of brilliance, raising their games to beat an established power, only to sink back down in a classic trap game (Giants being the most obvious example).

Injuries aside, I don't think we've lost a game we "should" have won in two years. (Oakland game maybe, but without AJ, Mario and Al's ghost on the sidelines, we'll call it even). We have learned to beat the teams we should beat, better yet, we've learned not to beat ourselves. Out entire gameplan is built around it, on offense at least.


What we have yet to learn is how to beat the good teams when they don't beat themselves. It's the next step in the process to being a dominant team. We're obviously not there yet and we may never get there as players age and the cap hits take their toll. What worries me is that it requires a fundamental shift in approach. We have to be both more aggressive in going after the win and more flexible in our play calling. When you play good teams, some things just aren't going to work. I don't know if Kubiak has a new chapter to write. He's slowly and incrementally improved as a coach from bellow average to play off winner to what ever the hell we are now.

But there's another step to go, and I'm starting to doubt we'll make it this season. Here's to being wrong.
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Old 12-14-2012   #49
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Here's a quick run down.

First half:

Our first drive was stopped when Jean couldn't pull in a 35 some yard pass attempt along the right sideline. It was not an easy catch to made, but the ball was right there, in his hands.

...

Our second drive was stopped because Schaub threw that stupid INT instead of dumping the ball off to a wide-open Foster underneath.

...

Our third drive was stopped when Schaub's pass was batted down at the line.
He was going to Walter on an out-route that should be enough for a first down on the right side.

...

Our fourth drive was stopped when Willfork batted down another short pass attempt to Jean in the middle.

...

Our fifth drive was stopped for two reasons:

1. On third down, Jean didn't adjust his route and caught the ball for only 7 yards when needed 12.
(maybe it was what he was supposed to do - I'm just guessing that he has the leeway to do it here.)

He was running a 5-yd quick hitch or quick in.
There was nobody in the middle of the field;
if he had continue on as if he was running a quick in,
he would have plenty of room to run;
instead, the CB came up and tackled him 5yd short of the first-down marker.

2. On fourth down, Walter dropped a ball on the left side that would have gained at least 7-8 yards, more than enough for a first down.

...

Our 6th drive was stopped when either Myers or Foster failed to pick up the blitz; Schaub had to throw the ball away.
He was going with Walter who was open on another quick out to the left.

...

Our 7th drive was stopped because Schaub had to hurry the throw; the ball was just a hair too high for Jean. He barely touched the ball when the safety came up and gave him a big blow in the back. Harris had lost his battle and allowed his man to zero in on Schaub, who was hit pretty hard on that play.

That's the end of the half.


WRONG!!!

Our first drive bogged down whenever Arian Foster ran for about 12 yards on the first play of the game, which sadly was brought back by a holding penalty..... Subsequently brought up 1st and really long...........

That series pretty much set the outline of that night.

And later:


AND, yes many of us could see us getting back into the game..

But couldn't make any plays...

This is where the Texans failed!!!
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Old 12-14-2012   #50
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by run-david-run View Post
To add to what I posted earlier,
I liked this post much better than your first one. I think this one is closer to being on the right track. We had been talking the few weeks before the Boston Massacre, how our offense was able to turn it on & help our struggling D.

But we've been seeing the same issue all year long. Our offense can't "turn it on" when they want to. Sure we've been able to score a lot of points. Sure we've won 11 games. But we haven't been able to convert 3rd downs when we needed to, instead we've had to punt & put it in the hands of our defense.

That's fine when the defense is doing it's thing, but when we're trying to get our offense to bail our D out.... not so much.

Last year, after we secured a healthy lead, we were able to run the ball, stay on schedule, convert 3rd downs & score, even if it was just field goals.

I think getting Newton back is going to help us. But getting Schaub back to 2009 form would make us unstoppable.
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Old 12-14-2012   #51
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

Obviously, we all want the offense to be more consistent.

But before going overboard, why don't you guys check out the Pats 2010 season when they went 14-2.

They had 4 games where they didn't gain 300 yards, and another game where they managed just 179 yards. They scored just 14 points twice.
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Old 12-14-2012   #52
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

All of the BS upstream.....

Here is what happens.....

A) The Texans kill the Colts by 20
B) The Texans Kill the Vikings by 14
C) V. The Colts, Again.......... Who cares at this point TJ Yates goes for about 2fifty(ish) and forsett rushes for about 120(ish)

D) Final week?


Meh.........

The Patriots at our house............





Bring it on!!!!

**** a bunch of what happened on MNF!!!
Bring it on!!!!
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Old 12-15-2012   #53
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

short & sweet - Patriots played more physical & got away with it
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Old 12-15-2012   #54
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

Quotes from Friday's practice.

Arian Foster
(on why the offense has struggled on third downs) “Because we haven’t executed, very simple.”
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Old 12-15-2012   #55
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
More like out-played.
^^^^
THIS

Their guys made plays when called upon.
Our guys didn't.

Don't matter what plays are called or who's calling them if the guys don't step up and make the damned plays.
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Old 12-15-2012   #56
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
You don't think that 21 point lead that Brady gave his defense helped?

It's a no-brainer.
There is no 21 pt play in football.
First we were only down 7.
Then only down 14...

We didn't make the plays that could have kept the game close. When you play Brady you need to match them score for score.
We couldn't.
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Old 12-15-2012   #57
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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There is no 21 pt play in football.
That's cute. I never even implied it.

Point being - FOOTBALL 101 - you help your defense when you keep their offense off the field. You help your defense by building a big lead so the opposing offense has to play catch up and gets desperate doing it.

A man of your age should already know these things to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
We didn't make the plays that could have kept the game close. When you play Brady you need to match them score for score.
We couldn't.
Conversely, the Patriots made the plays on both offense and defense that added up to a dominating performance. They took away our primary weapons on both sides of the ball and the rest of the team failed to step up and produce in that void.
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Old 12-15-2012   #58
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
That's cute. I never even implied it.

Point being - FOOTBALL 101 - you help your defense when you keep their offense off the field. You help your defense by building a big lead so the opposing offense has to play catch up and gets desperate doing it.

A man of your age should already know these things to be true.



Conversely, the Patriots made the plays on both offense and defense that added up to a dominating performance. They took away our primary weapons on both sides of the ball and the rest of the team failed to step up and produce in that void.
I think what he is saying they had opportunities to score before going down by 21. After the Patriots' first score we had a nice drive to get into scoring position, but turned it over. We threw an INT in the freak'n end zone. That's ok... no one expected us to score on every possession. Schaub is not elite, he's not clutch, we don't have the offensive weapons to score at will (Like a Pro Bowl QB, or arguably the best WR in the AFC, or arguably the best RB in the AFC, or arguably the best LT in the league)...

The Patriots score again, go up by 14. We absolutely, positively need to score here. At the very least, the one thing we cannot do, under any circumstance, is go 3 & out. Not after the defense was just used to mop up the field. But we do, we go 3 & out. That's exactly what we do. Defense is back on the field.

Defense is back on the field, still can't stop squat, the Patriots go up 21-0... now, our offense needs to score.

But don't.

Now, if by some sort of magic, the defense changes & becomes something capable of shutting the Patriots down from here on out, that won't change the fact that they've given up 21 points. The only they can do, is hope the offense figures out it's dilemma and put some points on the board.

Despite the Patriots getting 3 more possessions in the half (they shouldn't get but 4 possessions in the entire half, not a single qtr), they don't score. The defense delivers 3 back to back to back 3 & outs. The closest the offense got to scoring would have been a 51 yard field goal.

Patriots get the ball to start the 3rd Qtr..... they are allowed to gain 15 yards, then forced to punt. Our defense dominated the Patriots offense on their last 4 possessions.

If our offense scores here, we have a chance. Practically two qtrs to go we cut the lead to 14, we can still run our offense. No need to panic, no need to get desperate, all the offense has to do, is score a TD.

But that's not what happened. We went 3 & out. Now like I said, no one expected our offense to score on every possession. Just like no one expected them not to score on any of them. At this point, we're talking about 8 possessions. If we were to have scored on just half of them, that's 32 points. We'd be in the lead at this point.

But maybe it's a little to much to expect the 10th best QB in the league, the best LT in the league, the best WR in the AFC, the best RB in the AFC & a true offensive genius to score on half of their possessions. How about 40% of their possessions (or 3 of 8)? Would that be too much? That would have been 21 points, a tie game. That would have matched what the Patriots did in 8 possessions.

I understand the Patriots had a 21 point lead. But that alone is no reason to panic, that is no reason to be desperate, in fact, that is no reason to change your approach. Our 8th possession started with 13 minutes left in the third Qtr. If we had scored on 3 of our 8 possessions, we'd have a tie game with 13 minutes remaining in the 3rd Qtr & the entire 4th qtr yet to play.

It would be wrong to lay the Lions' share of this loss on Wade & the defense. At least they made an adjustment. At least they punched back.
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Old 12-15-2012   #59
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
quicker run down: Out-schemed, out-coached and out-quarterbacked.
^^^^
This

Running up the middle with Wilfork there was just plain stupid and hard headed. Anybody get the feeing that Gary chokes in big games? Other than the playoffs last yr I cant remember Gary/Matt winning a big game under the bright lights.
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Old 12-15-2012   #60
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Default Re: Why the offense bogged down against the Pats

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
^^^^
This

Running up the middle with Wilfork there was just plain stupid and hard headed. Anybody get the feeing that Gary chokes in big games? Other than the playoffs last yr I cant remember Gary/Matt winning a big game under the bright lights.
We didn't really run at Wilfork.

When we did, we had a double team/combo block of that nature.

He blew up a few plays when we ran away from him.
The outside zone run was bogged down by one reason of another, from D. Brown, to Wade Smith, to Harris, Gardner, O.D., to Casey, or B Jones. On the back side.

I mean, we got outplayed at a certain key area on a lot of plays.
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