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Old 06-07-2005   #41
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Originally Posted by rittenhouserobz
How would we get a 1st rounder in RFA? I thought teams were only required to compensate based on the player's round in the draft? If we match another teams offer, then we have to sign him to a signing bonus. After that, we trade him and take the signing bonus as a cap hit? So if we could get a 1st or 2nd rounder without a cap hit then wouldn't that be better? I am really lost on how a Ragone trade would affect the cap and what picks we would get for compensation for different levels of offers in RFA. I could use a little light here.
RFA's receive compensation based on the tender they receive from their team. All offers carry the option of the current team to match another team's offer and retain the player. If an offer is not matched, a player to whom a low tender has been made will bring compensation of a draft pick from their original draft round, mid tender gets a 1st round pick and high tender gets 1st and 3rd round picks. Prior to becoming a RFA, i.e. while still under contract to the Texans, the RFA rules don't apply and the Texans can work out whatever deal they want with another team.
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Old 06-07-2005   #42
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Originally Posted by rittenhouserobz
How would we get a 1st rounder in RFA? I thought teams were only required to compensate based on the player's round in the draft? If we match another teams offer, then we have to sign him to a signing bonus. After that, we trade him and take the signing bonus as a cap hit? So if we could get a 1st or 2nd rounder without a cap hit then wouldn't that be better? I am really lost on how a Ragone trade would affect the cap and what picks we would get for compensation for different levels of offers in RFA. I could use a little light here.
To be able to keep one of your restricted free agents you have to make an initial offer. There are four different levels of initial offers.
1. Right of first refusal (ROFR) - If you match another teams offer, you keep the player
2. ROFR + original draft round - If you don't match, you get a pick in the same round you drafted your RFA
3. ROFR + first round pick - If you don't match, you get their first round pick
4. ROFR + first round and third round picks - If you don't match, you get their first round and third round pick
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Old 06-07-2005   #43
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Default Ragone will be on the practice Squad

He's in a league that has 6 teams and Blitzing is illeagal. Sorry but Ragone inst even a decent backup. The line up will be be:

Carr
Banks
Parsons

The Coaching staff is high on Preston Parsons. He's looked really good in practice and has the prototypical QB body and a serious gun for an arm. Wish the Seahawks wouldhave picked him up. Hey, wanna trade? you can have Seneca Wallace!
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Old 06-07-2005   #44
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Originally Posted by BornOrange
To be able to keep one of your restricted free agents you have to make an initial offer. There are four different levels of initial offers.
There are only three different levels of offers--low, mid and high. You don't get a right of first refusal without making one of those three.
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Old 06-07-2005   #45
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This is what i would do. Just see what kind of offers you get for Ragone right now, if you get a 1rst or 2nd you jump all over it. Let's say a team like the Browns or 49er's offer a 3rd round pick, (which is projected to be high), then you consider it. If no ideal trade appears you keep him on and let him and Tony Banks battle it out for the #2 spot. Meanwhile you cut B.J. only if you trade Ragone and don't offer Mock a contract. Then I'd keep the phone lines open for more trade proposals for Ragone during the season as well, and during next year's draft.

If a trade works out
1. Carr
2. Banks
3. Symons
PS- Preston Parsons
( and we have a good extra draft pick)

If no trade
1. Carr
2. Ragone/Banks( battle for #2 spot)
3. Ragone/Banks(whoever loses the battle)
PS- Preston Parsons
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Old 06-08-2005   #46
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Default Trade Ragone

Dave Ragone will see his stock rise after if he is named NFLE MVP, and if he has a good showing at the World Bowl. so i propose trading him... there are teams that could use him, and he could actually start for....
- Miami Dolphins- AJ Feeley was brought in last year, and Gus Ferotte (sp?) is there, but Feeley was a Dave Wannsted(sp?) guy, and he was also brought in by the old GM, but with a new coach, and a new GM..Feeley isnt sitting so pretty anymore, Ferotte has a chance to take the starting spot, and he isnt that good... I think Houston could get a good deal for Ragone to the Dolphins, and Ragone would have a more legit shot of being a starter there.
-AZ Cardinals- After Kurt Warner, who i have no faith in, there is not much talent there, thus the rotating quarterback situation they had last year.
-SF Niners- Alex Smith is the starter, but i wouldn't mind having Ragone as a good #2, he is better than Rattay or Dorsey.
-Carolina Panthers- Jake Delhomme, and then you got nothin... i might be wrong but isnt Jake getting up there in years?

Just a thought
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Old 06-08-2005   #47
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-SF Niners- Alex Smith is the starter, but i wouldn't mind having Ragone as a good #2, he is better than Rattay or Dorsey.
-Carolina Panthers- Jake Delhomme, and then you got nothin... i might be wrong but isnt Jake getting up there in years?

Just a thought

Teams don't give a way 1st or 2nd round picks to get a backup QB. Conceivably someone will take a shot at Ragone as a starter but nobody will be throwing high draft picks at the Texans for a guy with an NFL passer rating around 50.
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Old 06-08-2005   #48
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Trade banks, let Ragone play back up and use the extra money to fund " a free beer" during fan appreciation night!
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Old 06-09-2005   #49
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
Teams don't give a way 1st or 2nd round picks to get a backup QB. Conceivably someone will take a shot at Ragone as a starter but nobody will be throwing high draft picks at the Texans for a guy with an NFL passer rating around 50.
i didnt say anything about a first round or second round pick any where in my statement, i would conceive probably either a late round 2nd, but none of the teams i list will likely have a late pick, or a 3rd rounder, which basically means we didnt lose much, since ragone was our 3rd round choice
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Old 06-09-2005   #50
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I still remember all the people saying that we would never get higher than a 5th round pick for Henson. If the Dolphins are positively terrible by week 4 with no hope in sight, then I think they might risk a 2nd round pick on a guy with a winning attitude. I think once Ragone is given a real chance he will excel at the position.
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Old 06-09-2005   #51
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Originally Posted by BornOrange
What I find so puzzling is why everyone is so eager to trade Ragone right now. Even if the Texans had the best offensive line in the league, Carr is always one hit away from being out for the season. Anyone who has watched the NFL for more than a couple of games knows that backup QB's are extremely valuable.

What would happen if the Texans trade Ragone and then Carr goes down with an injury? And then Banks? With a playoff spot on the line? Remember how bad Ragone looked his rookie year? That would be what Symons would look like this year.

I say keep Ragone at least until he becomes a restricted free agent. Then we can find out how much interest other teams have in him and if he gets a huge offer we could get a first rounder for him.
As I stated at the beginning of this topic when I suggested the trade idea - "Strike while the iron is hot" is the reasoning. He has a good name, has put up starting quality stats for a QB against NFL level of talent. That's starting quality enough for me and much better than any - unproven college talent out there. IMO The NFLE experience has very little gameplay differences than the NFL - only the level of talent and competition. He's shown his skillz, MVP talent and thus why I am hot to trade him while he is a hot commodity.

Honestly I dont see why fans and folks around here devalue him so much and think he's not even worth the third rounder he was originally picked for. I have a hard time rationalizing that sense of value. To me hes shown alot better valeu than that and will only improve given playtime. Unfortuantely without trading him elsewhere - I dont think he will get it anytime soon. Banks is our #2 - expereinced, knows the playbook and is low cost value. A #2 QB thru and thru. He's had mutlitple chances to start for other teams. Ragone - needs to go elsewhere to get those same chances for himself is my point. - I think we could get value out of the deal, help him and help our team too.

As for CArr goign down and insurance policies - We have banks, and Symons and Mock and the new guy too. Plenty of depth and if we are down to our 3rd QB and going to the playoffs - and your expecting that 3rd string guy to lead the team to the playoffs - your fooling yourself IMO. He's there as insurance in case we need to get thru a game. A quick fix - not a long term one IMO. IF were down to our 3rd QB because the other 2 are injured - I think i'm pointing my fingers at other places [O-line] for blame than a 3rd string QB.
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Old 06-09-2005   #52
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Originally Posted by U4ikrob
Honestly I dont see why fans and folks around here devalue him so much and think he's not even worth the third rounder he was originally picked for. I have a hard time rationalizing those folks sense of value
I would agree that his value is up from the 3rd where we selected him. The only question to his value is with the length of his contract. Teams would be relcutant to pay a first unless they know that a deal could be reached for x numbers of years. That said I beleive that his best value to the Texans is as a number 2 for Carr. Understanding that you can never have enough quality QB's
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Old 06-09-2005   #53
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i think a lot of ya'll are getting too far ahead here...remember last year there was the same talk about rohan davey who led berlin to a world bowl championship and nfle mvp...where is he now...still in new england and he might not even be the #2 QB on the depth chart with them bringing in flutie i believe...i believe the partiots were willing to listen to offers for him but the highest was a 5th round pick...so don't get too excited
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Old 06-09-2005   #54
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Originally Posted by keyfro
i think a lot of ya'll are getting too far ahead here...remember last year there was the same talk about rohan davey who led berlin to a world bowl championship and nfle mvp...where is he now...still in new england and he might not even be the #2 QB on the depth chart with them bringing in flutie i believe...i believe the partiots were willing to listen to offers for him but the highest was a 5th round pick...so don't get too excited
Keyfro's right. As Texan fans we should be very encouraged by Ragone's play. However, teams don't trade away high draft picks for QBs with zero successful experience in the NFL. I think he'll eventually prove to be valuable to us. At some point he's going to play and I think he'll do very well. No way we get anything above a 3rd round pick for him until then, though.
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Old 06-09-2005   #55
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DaleMurphy - Honestly man- what does it take to impress you ?? Sheesh - The guy wins MVP has a 97.5 passer rating and thru 13 tds - to only 2 picks out of 245 attempts. David Carr has not even come close to putting up comparable numbers, yet you thik this guy still isnt worth more than the third rounder we picked him with???

My hunch is he will have to go to another team before you see that happen - he will never see starting time here if at all possible. Banks is our backup and will remain so for a while IMO. He's good at that role and has no trade appeal [See off-season]. Ragone on the other hand I think has the starter qualities and is young enough and would be a good financial signign by any team as he's not in RFA until next year. But if we wait too long [06] we loose him and he can just leave go wherever he wants to play. His numbers speak for themselves now and are on display for all teams and GM's to see. We wil lsee if the phone starts ringing who was right and wrong just like the O-line debates and other topics on the board.

It's just part of the juices flowing during the off-season that makes the Real thing that much fun.

I found this part of the Chronicle article on him interesting

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3210896

Hold the one-liners
If you're laughing, stop. If you're about to make level-of-competition wisecracks, save them. If you think NFL Europe is a joke, consider some of its alumni.

Super Bowl quarterbacks Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson and Jake Delhomme cut their teeth in NFL Europe. Quarterback Jon Kitna, receivers Matthew Hatchette and Dane Looker and return specialist Dante Hall are former NFL Europe stars.

"Coming over here, I knew I wasn't playing the highest NFL-caliber (competition), but that wasn't a big concern for me," said Ragone, speaking by phone from Germany. "It was more about being able to prove to myself that I could lead a team to win.

"It's not the Super Bowl, but any time you're playing for a championship, I don't care if it's pool, golf or tennis, it can only help you down the road."

...............At some point, Texans general manager Charley Casserly will get a call from another GM hoping to uncover the next Warner, Johnson or Delhomme. Or teams could just wait. Ragone will be a restricted free agent after this season and an unrestricted free agent after 2006.
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Old 06-10-2005   #56
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Default How high of a draft pick for Ragone?

Texans I"m wondering with Ragone having such a good season there in NFLE and possibly holding the #2 job this season if some teams might consider him a future starter in the league. Obviously not with us so what kind of pick do you guys think we could get for him?
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Old 06-11-2005   #57
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I'm just not inclined to deal a QB away as soon as he proves he can contribute something. I agree with the comparison to Rohan Davey, by the way. The Texans wouldn't get much for Ragone based on his minor-league season performance, even though it was great. But I think he's come a long way and should challenge for the #2 job. If so, that's fantastic.

Dave Ragone is worth more to the Texans as a backup QB right now than as tradebait--especially considering the tendency of the entrenched starter to be treated like a pinata throughout the season.
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Old 06-11-2005   #58
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Originally Posted by Jakebrake
He's in a league that has 6 teams and Blitzing is illeagal. Sorry but Ragone inst even a decent backup. The line up will be be:

Carr
Banks
Parsons

The Coaching staff is high on Preston Parsons. He's looked really good in practice and has the prototypical QB body and a serious gun for an arm. Wish the Seahawks wouldhave picked him up. Hey, wanna trade? you can have Seneca Wallace!

He just broke nearly every record in NFLE history putting up better #'s than Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, and Jake Delhomme....hmmmm.....haven't all three of those QB's PLAYED IN THE SUPER BOWL?????? You're right though, obviously he is a scrub if he had better success than 3 Super Bowl QB's.

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Old 06-11-2005   #59
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
There are only three different levels of offers--low, mid and high. You don't get a right of first refusal without making one of those three.
The collective bargaining agreement specifies four levels.

The dollar figures have changed over the years, but there haven't been any amendments to change the section on restricted free agents.

If a team makes the lowest qualifying offer and it isn't 110% of the prior contract, the team maintains right of first refusal but doesn't get any compensation if they don't match another team's offer.

Collective Bargaining Agreement

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Section 2. Restricted Free Agents:

(a) Any Veteran player with three or more Accrued Seasons, but less than five Accrued Seasons (or less than four Accrued Seasons in any Capped Year), shall, at the expiration of his last Player Contract during such period, become a Restricted Free Agent. Any such player shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any such player, subject to the restrictions set forth in this Article.

(b) In order to receive the following specified Rights of First Refusal and/or Draft Choice Compensation with respect to a Restricted Free Agent, the Prior Club of a Restricted Free Agent must tender the player a Qualifying Offer on or before the first date of the Restricted Free Agent Signing Period, as follows:

(i) For Restricted Free Agents with three Accrued Seasons:

(1) Right of First Refusal: one year Player Contract with Paragraph 5 Salary of at least $275,000;

(2) Right of First Refusal and Draft Selection at Player’s Original Draft Round: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $275,000, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged (this subsection is subject to the rules of subsection (c) below);

(3) Right of First Refusal and One First Round Draft Selection: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $600,000, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged;

(4) Right of First Refusal, One First Round Draft Selection, and One Third Round Draft Selection: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $800,000, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged;

(ii) For Restricted Free Agents with four Accrued Seasons (in Uncapped Years):

(1) Right of First Refusal: one year Player Contract with Paragraph 5 Salary of at least $325,000;

(2) Right of First Refusal and Draft Selection at Player’s Original Draft Round: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $325,000, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged (this subsection is subject to the rules of subsection (c) below);

(3) Right of First Refusal and One First Round Draft Selection: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $700,000, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged; and

(4) Right of First Refusal, One First Round Draft Selection, and One Third Round Draft Selection: one year Player Contract with Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $900,000, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged.
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Old 06-12-2005   #60
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He just broke nearly every record in NFLE history putting up better #'s than Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, and Jake Delhomme....hmmmm.....haven't all three of those QB's PLAYED IN THE SUPER BOWL?????? You're right though, obviously he is a scrub if he had better success than 3 Super Bowl QB's.

Those guys all had to take some funky routes to get to the Superbowl. Trent Green has a severe injury or Warner would have been stuck behind him. Delhomme had sign with another organization and then wait for Rodney Peete to suck. Brad Johnson had every Qb in the world play before him in Minnesota and then went to Tampa Bay.

Basically, dominating the world league is like a pitcher in baseball dominating AAA, it is a good sign, but by no means a signal that he is a good Qb. Ron Powlus played very well in world league, so did the aforementioned Rohan Davey. I am sure the list is much longer of guys who played really well in NFLe than were never heard from than the huge success stories.
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