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Old 10-30-2012   #41
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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You're right, it's too soon into his good play to start calling for him to be crowned.

It was also FAR too early for him to be crucified by members of this board half a year into his career.
No, he was growing rather slowly. He deserved the criticism he received.

Likewise, he deserves the early congrats that he's getting thus far this season.

But he doesn't deserve for the case to be closed with 9 games left to play and a flurry of postseason games awaiting. So...like I said "I'll calmly wait and see which KJ is the real KJ: Growing and Learning KJ or Curb Kicked KJ." He has just as big of a chance at regression as he does progression right now.

Connor Barwin broke out of a 6-game funk vs. Ravens in our last game, but I won't sit here and say "Gee, you know what? I was too harsh on him those first 6 games of this season. He's baaaaack!" LOL.
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Old 10-30-2012   #42
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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No, he was growing rather slowly. He deserved the criticism he received.

Likewise, he deserves the early congrats that he's getting thus far this season.

But he doesn't deserve for the case to be closed with 9 games left to play and a flurry of postseason games awaiting. So...like I said "I'll calmly wait and see which KJ is the real KJ: Growing and Learning KJ or Curb Kicked KJ." He has just as big of a chance at regression as he does progression right now.

Connor Barwin broke out of a 6-game funk vs. Ravens in our last game, but I won't sit here and say "Gee, you know what? I was too harsh on him those first 6 games of this season. He's baaaaack!" LOL.
I agree, but with a stipulation. Yes, Kareem's poor play early (emphasis on early) in his career deserved criticism. And he received it in spades. But people immediately labeled him as a bust, designating him as a wasted pick. After what? A season in a historically bad defense? Thrust into the starting CB spot where even most veterans would struggle?

Sure, let's criticize our players when they're playing poorly. Let's commend them when they're playing well (like Kareem is now). But after the way Kareem was dragged through the mud his first season or two, and the way public perception of him is STILL stained by the verbal abuse he took by Houston media and fans, he deserves some major props, and the knee-jerk fans who dismissed him SHOULD be eating some crow.
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Old 10-30-2012   #43
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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No, he was growing rather slowly. He deserved the criticism he received.

Likewise, he deserves the early congrats that he's getting thus far this season.

But he doesn't deserve for the case to be closed with 9 games left to play and a flurry of postseason games awaiting. So...like I said "I'll calmly wait and see which KJ is the real KJ: Growing and Learning KJ or Curb Kicked KJ." He has just as big of a chance at regression as he does progression right now.

Connor Barwin broke out of a 6-game funk vs. Ravens in our last game, but I won't sit here and say "Gee, you know what? I was too harsh on him those first 6 games of this season. He's baaaaack!" LOL.
Growing slowly? How quickly do you expect a corner to learn his position?
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Old 10-30-2012   #44
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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I agree, but with a stipulation. Yes, Kareem's poor play early (emphasis on early) in his career deserved criticism. And he received it in spades. But people immediately labeled him as a bust, designating him as a wasted pick. After what? A season in a historically bad defense? Thrust into the starting CB spot where even most veterans would struggle?

Sure, let's criticize our players when they're playing poorly. Let's commend them when they're playing well (like Kareem is now). But after the way Kareem was dragged through the mud his first season or two, and the way public perception of him is STILL stained by the verbal abuse he took by Houston media and fans, he deserves some major props, and the knee-jerk fans who dismissed him SHOULD be eating some crow.
You sound like Dan Dierdorf's vilification of Texans fans and the city of Houston for how we "treated" poor Jacoby Jones.

Look, Kareem is a big boy. It doesn't matter if we dog on the guy. I would never boo the guy. I would never say he's flat out garbage. In fact, I wanted him to move to a nickel role if he couldn't hack it as a CB2 in the league. But hey, that might not be needed now. MAYBE.

Verbal abuse by Houston media and fans? Man, we're some of the most laid back fans in the league. In fact, we're not nearly as corrosive as the other teams out there. To say that Kareem is being bullied is just laughable. He got criticism when he was not playing well ("falling down" jokes, "turn your head around!" and many more) and he's gotten praise this season for having performed well. It's not easy being a starter in the NFL, and I don't think many people labeled him a complete and utter bust. Maybe a handful, but the majority of "haters" are just people who know he has the talent but wasn't putting it together fast enough.

In year 3, he has hit a stride that he needed to hit by this year. Most people agreed year 3 needed to be a consistently good year for him. Years 1 and 2 were rough, with the exception of the Ravens playoff game where I think KJ turned the corner out of nowhere. He was a lone bright spot that day.
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Old 10-30-2012   #45
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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Growing slowly? How quickly do you expect a corner to learn his position?
Oh, I guess he was a RB in college???

Look, Nick Saban even admitted--when KJ declared for the draft--that he wasn't as draft-ready as the other few 'Bama guys who were alongside KJ in the 2010 draft. A lot of people think Saban is a jerk, but he nailed his prediction/forewarning about KJ leaving early. He wasn't ready.

This is the NFL, it has the best of the best...and at this level a guy washes out faster than at any other level of football they've ever played. Don't hate me, or others, for having short patience. We waited 9 years to get last year's playoff season under our belt, and so the expectations get raised. Infinitely.

Had KJ waited until the draft of 2011, I think--personally--he would still be behind the eight ball this season and looking at a good season in 2013, some guys just take longer to get it together.
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Old 10-30-2012   #46
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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I agree, but with a stipulation. Yes, Kareem's poor play early (emphasis on early) in his career deserved criticism. And he received it in spades. But people immediately labeled him as a bust, designating him as a wasted pick. After what? A season in a historically bad defense? Thrust into the starting CB spot where even most veterans would struggle?

Sure, let's criticize our players when they're playing poorly. Let's commend them when they're playing well (like Kareem is now). But after the way Kareem was dragged through the mud his first season or two, and the way public perception of him is STILL stained by the verbal abuse he took by Houston media and fans, he deserves some major props, and the knee-jerk fans who dismissed him SHOULD be eating some crow.
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Growing slowly? How quickly do you expect a corner to learn his position?
Come on guys, if you two have read the criticisms of KJ during his first two years you would understand why some of us are not too enthused with your apparent attempt to rewrite Kareem's history. Foo, KJ was said(but not his coach) to be ready for NFL coming from a "pro style" defense under a great coach. No one expected him to be Prime Time but we did not expect him to play so poorly for so long. He seemed to be in catch up mode most plays. Yeah some of that is on the coach we had then but much was on the player and imo the scout.

On Texans of 2012 a first round pick (Mercilus) can be eased in here and there. On the Texans of 2010, a first was expected to do more. That is supported by him starting that season. Another example was David Carr who came in with high expectation but not much surrounding him. I think most would agree he caught much more grief than KJ.

We who have criticised Jackson are very pleased with how he is now performing but we will be cautious for a bit.
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Old 10-30-2012   #47
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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You sound like Dan Dierdorf's vilification of Texans fans and the city of Houston for how we "treated" poor Jacoby Jones.

Look, Kareem is a big boy. It doesn't matter if we dog on the guy. I would never boo the guy. I would never say he's flat out garbage. In fact, I wanted him to move to a nickel role if he couldn't hack it as a CB2 in the league. But hey, that might not be needed now. MAYBE.

Verbal abuse by Houston media and fans? Man, we're some of the most laid back fans in the league. In fact, we're not nearly as corrosive as the other teams out there. To say that Kareem is being bullied is just laughable. He got criticism when he was not playing well ("falling down" jokes, "turn your head around!" and many more) and he's gotten praise this season for having performed well. It's not easy being a starter in the NFL, and I don't think many people labeled him a complete and utter bust. Maybe a handful, but the majority of "haters" are just people who know he has the talent but wasn't putting it together fast enough.

In year 3, he has hit a stride that he needed to hit by this year. Most people agreed year 3 needed to be a consistently good year for him. Years 1 and 2 were rough, with the exception of the Ravens playoff game where I think KJ turned the corner out of nowhere. He was a lone bright spot that day.
I never said you, specifically, were guilty of the knee-jerk reactions towards Kareem. But I think the way that Kareem's playing RIGHT NOW and the way that fans (casual, not on this board (for the most part)) still perceive him shows how much Kareem was blamed for that bad defense.

Knowledgeable fans (and I consider you such) knew that Kareem had a long way to go, but he wasn't a bust...yet. But I'd be willing to bet that most casual Texans fans are unwilling to embrace the new Kareem as easily as they were able to embrace the falling down Kareem; they simply don't want to be wrong.

He's changed (from what we can see). I agree we cannot crown him yet. He's got to put together a good rest of the season, even a good next season before we can really start to see what he'll be for the rest of his career. It irritates me beyond all reason when a player in his first season is LABELED as a bust, especially when we're having this conversation now, three years later, how he can't be judged yet, he still has a lot to prove.
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Old 10-30-2012   #48
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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I never said you, specifically, were guilty of the knee-jerk reactions towards Kareem. But I think the way that Kareem's playing RIGHT NOW and the way that fans (casual, not on this board (for the most part)) still perceive him shows how much Kareem was blamed for that bad defense.

Knowledgeable fans (and I consider you such) knew that Kareem had a long way to go, but he wasn't a bust...yet. But I'd be willing to bet that most casual Texans fans are unwilling to embrace the new Kareem as easily as they were able to embrace the falling down Kareem; they simply don't want to be wrong.He's changed (from what we can see). I agree we cannot crown him yet. He's got to put together a good rest of the season, even a good next season before we can really start to see what he'll be for the rest of his career. It irritates me beyond all reason when a player in his first season is LABELED as a bust, especially when we're having this conversation now, three years later, how he can't be judged yet, he still has a lot to prove.
Agree with bolded. People love to see others like actors,the wealthy, athletes & politicians, etc. fail or look stupid. These are those who ride the band wagon. I just try to ignore them unless they say something I choose to react to; mostly I don't and if I do, I try to use humor or sarcasm that gets my point across without trashing the other person.

I suggest we be discerning but root for KJ.
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Old 10-30-2012   #49
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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I never said you, specifically, were guilty of the knee-jerk reactions towards Kareem. But I think the way that Kareem's playing RIGHT NOW and the way that fans (casual, not on this board (for the most part)) still perceive him shows how much Kareem was blamed for that bad defense.

Knowledgeable fans (and I consider you such) knew that Kareem had a long way to go, but he wasn't a bust...yet. But I'd be willing to bet that most casual Texans fans are unwilling to embrace the new Kareem as easily as they were able to embrace the falling down Kareem; they simply don't want to be wrong.

He's changed (from what we can see). I agree we cannot crown him yet. He's got to put together a good rest of the season, even a good next season before we can really start to see what he'll be for the rest of his career. It irritates me beyond all reason when a player in his first season is LABELED as a bust, especially when we're having this conversation now, three years later, how he can't be judged yet, he still has a lot to prove.
Good post.

I personally think the problem lies in a team trying to figure out if a guy just needs some time to get adjusted...or if they are never going to progress enough to maintain that spot.

For teams, it can be daunting to hang on...hang on.....haaaaang on...until that guy "gets it." At what point does a team cut bait and start over? Probably the most difficult task of every NFL team: Not just identifying the draft pick, but actually knowing if that draft pick is going to turn the corner or not. In that sense, it's unforgiving. Fans? Even MORE unforgiving!

It takes a few David Carrs, a few Travis Johnsons, a few Amobi Okoyes, Jacoby Joneses, for fans to get to the point where they don't want to see a 3-year project anymore. Same song, same dance, different year. Maybe that's wherein lies the fans' frustrations?

But if a KJ works out, if he sticks, then we'll be back to inherently being more patient with future projects. I think most fans know we were into KJ for the long haul no matter what. Letting Jason Allen head to the Bengals was the biggest tell-tale sign, obviously, so it's relieving to know that KJ is handling his side all by himself and not splitting time anymore. To me, maybe last year's half-and-half philosophy worked out better than most of us would be honest enough to admit to. I had my doubts he could carry his side all alone this year, but he has been fantastic thus far. The Ravens playoff game is where I think the light bulb went on in his head. I remember watching that game, and thinking "Even if we lose, we saw a KJ we wanted to see today. This is GOOD."
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Old 10-30-2012   #50
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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Oh, I guess he was a RB in college???

Look, Nick Saban even admitted--when KJ declared for the draft--that he wasn't as draft-ready as the other few 'Bama guys who were alongside KJ in the 2010 draft. A lot of people think Saban is a jerk, but he nailed his prediction/forewarning about KJ leaving early. He wasn't ready.

This is the NFL, it has the best of the best...and at this level a guy washes out faster than at any other level of football they've ever played. Don't hate me, or others, for having short patience. We waited 9 years to get last year's playoff season under our belt, and so the expectations get raised. Infinitely.

Had KJ waited until the draft of 2011, I think--personally--he would still be behind the eight ball this season and looking at a good season in 2013, some guys just take longer to get it together.
And yet you ignored my question. How long do you think it will take a corner from college to fully transition into the NFL? Year 1, he was godawful and couldn't keep up. Year 2, he did a hell of a job shadowing his man, but just didn't make plays on the ball. Year 3, he is making more plays on the ball and performing very well through 7 weeks.

I'll ask again, how quickly do you expect most corners to progress and grow? You guys are holding an unrealistic expectation at one of the hardest position to play.

Corners get burned all the time, even good ones. The only problem is, whenever it happens to KJax, you are quicker to jump on him. If JJoe gets burned (and he does), it's usually forgotten.

I will guarantee this will happen. If Kjax plays outstanding probowl caliber football through 16 weeks, and then gives up a couple of big plays in the playoffs, we will never hear the end of it from you. You will proclaim he sucks and that he is a liability.
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Old 10-30-2012   #51
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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And yet you ignored my question. How long do you think it will take a corner from college to fully transition into the NFL?
Not GP here but the consensus seems to be three years. Looks like KJ is right on track. Personally, I believe he will continue to improve. Perhaps to the point where QBs will fear throwing to either side.
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Old 10-30-2012   #52
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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Not GP here but the consensus seems to be three years. Looks like KJ is right on track. Personally, I believe he will continue to improve. Perhaps to the point where QBs will fear throwing to either side.
Seems like they already do, they hardly throw to KJac at all anymore.
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Old 10-30-2012   #53
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

Kareem had talent and with right staff in place his skills and talent have matured and blossomed. Patience young jedi knights.
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Old 10-31-2012   #54
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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Growing slowly? How quickly do you expect a corner to learn his position?
I thought Patrick Peterson was still showing some growing pains Thursday night. DRC was still growing last Sunday as well.
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Old 11-04-2012   #55
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

I missed most of the first qtr & I admit Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't among the top QBs in the league.

But did he even thow to Kj's side at all today? I'm asking, simply because I didn't see any, not trying to say Kj is all that or anything, just wondering.
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Old 11-04-2012   #56
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well, you may not be saying that KJ is all that, but I cetainly am.
I don't think he was targeted
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Old 11-04-2012   #57
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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I missed most of the first qtr & I admit Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't among the top QBs in the league.

But did he even thow to Kj's side at all today? I'm asking, simply because I didn't see any, not trying to say Kj is all that or anything, just wondering.
The only time I ever heard KJ mentioned today was when he chased Fitz out of bounds on a scramble towards the end of the game.
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Old 11-05-2012   #58
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
Yeah, it's funny how so many of our fans said he didn't have the talent to play in this league. Or that he wasn't worthy of a first round pick.

I understand he played poorly, but all rookies do, especially starting at #1 or #2 CB.
Biggest factor is playing in a real scheme and not in Frank Bushes semi-retarded WTF front.
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Old 11-05-2012   #59
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

Rookie corners struggle. It is the way it is. Asking a rook to man up on the other team's #1 game in and game out is a mistake. IIRC Jackson was supposed to be the most "NFL ready" CB in the draft. It didn't matter. We didn't get enough pressure and we had terrible safety play that year. If you were down on KJ you had a right to be. The problem comes in if you blamed him for his lack of success. It is the coaches job to put a player in a position to succeed. Putting a rook as the #1 or #2 CB is not putting him in a position for success. You can argue that the situation warranted it, and that's fine but it was what it was. IIRC he was also being taught some weird side step when breaking into coverage.

Mike
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Old 11-05-2012   #60
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson allowing only 2.5 receptions and 35 yards per game

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Originally Posted by Texanmike02 View Post
Rookie corners struggle. It is the way it is. Asking a rook to man up on the other team's #1 game in and game out is a mistake. IIRC Jackson was supposed to be the most "NFL ready" CB in the draft. It didn't matter. We didn't get enough pressure and we had terrible safety play that year. If you were down on KJ you had a right to be. The problem comes in if you blamed him for his lack of success. It is the coaches job to put a player in a position to succeed. Putting a rook as the #1 or #2 CB is not putting him in a position for success. You can argue that the situation warranted it, and that's fine but it was what it was. IIRC he was also being taught some weird side step when breaking into coverage.

Mike
I'm not going to discount the hard work that KJ has put in to improve as a player. I don't think the criticism of KJ was unfounded or unwarranted. I do think he's worked his ass off and been coached up/put into a position to succeed by Phillips. All the coaching in the world is useless unless the player puts in the work to put the coaching into effect. I'm proud of the young man for taking the necessary coaching and putting in the effort to make it show up on the field.
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