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Old 06-04-2005   #21
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5- year lineman plan LOL, yeah thats it.
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Old 06-07-2005   #22
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Does anyone know anything about C Gennaro DiNapoli from the Cowboys? He is available, but I really don't know if he would be an upgrade on McKinney or not.

How about C Blake Lingruen from Detroit? He is available too.
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Old 06-07-2005   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3
The Texans didn't draft any O-Linemen in 2004 - by comparison, the Cowboys, since 1984 have only had 2 drafts (1990 & 2000) that they didn't draft any. Were they all great picks? No, but you gotta bring 'em in to find out!
The 2004 draft is the only draft the Texans didn't pick an offensive lineman.
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Old 06-08-2005   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornOrange
The 2004 draft is the only draft the Texans didn't pick an offensive lineman.
True - but then again Pitts is the only one drafted in the second round or higher. Everyoen else we have picked up have been 3rd rounders or lower. We certainly have not made the O-line a priority since year 1 when we picked 3 lineman.

Unfortunately the lack of a decent TE on the team to help the O-line has raelly hurt also along with not having a LT who didnt come out asa project to us. Wand is nice - but still pretty raw - and IMO still should be a a back-up LT like he was planned to be behind Bosseli when we staretd the team. But the best laid plans... so to speak sometimes fall apart. What I dont like is the rosey colored glasses spin folks keep trying to put on the line like it's goign to magically get better just beacuse they had an off-season to think about it.

I cant wait till the pads come on and games start so we can end this debate allready. - I am hoping the guys prove me and many others wrogn about the line and that they step up to the challenge and protect DAvid like they are paid to do. Otherwise I forsee a very long season for Mr. Carr again and perhaps a trip in his future if things dont change. Everything takes time to develop sure - but they have had 4 years and 3 drafts folks. These players are not rookies and should be expected to do their jobs like everyone else on the team is paid to do. The O-line HAS to step up this year. Everything takes a toll and 150+ sacks in 3 years will take a toll on Mr. Carr. Hopefully they all get on the same page enough this year to make a difference in the season.

At least I hope so for Mr. CArr's and my remote's sake. My poor remote takes a beating every sunday - lol :brickwall Hopefully Mr. Carr wont be joining it this year for a change.
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Old 06-08-2005   #25
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Ok I keep hearing that we didn't draft a LT in the first or second round this year last year yada yada yada. Look who was availible? World class left tackles do not grow on trees and just because you have a first round pick does not mean that it should be used on a LT. You only use a first round pick on a LT that is first round material. There haven't been any. So what did we get instead? Last year we got a top corner and a outside rusher, both postitions that we needed to fill. As I see it we only really have 2 weaknesses on this team. TE and LT and I for one would rather see use upgrade the TE before the LT.

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Old 06-08-2005   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U4ikrob
True - but then again Pitts is the only one drafted in the second round or higher. Everyoen else we have picked up have been 3rd rounders or lower. We certainly have not made the O-line a priority since year 1 when we picked 3 lineman.


Should we have taken Gross instead of AJohnson?
How about Gallery instead of Dunta and Babin? Or, we could have taken Dunta and then Jeff Faine?

Who are all these OL picks in rounds one and two that we missed on? Instead of just complaining, how about saying what you think should have been done!
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Old 06-08-2005   #27
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OJthecat, I think you are a little off.

we have more holes than LT and TE.........I'd say we need a Center even more than those two positions. That said, I agree with you we need a complete TE very much.

I think that we also need a NT, a nice big run-stuffer that can draw double teams and stay HEALTHY. Cuz Payne is on the decline and is undersized to play NT in the 3-4.
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Old 06-08-2005   #28
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2002 draft

1st round
Mike Williams--Bills starting RT--has given up an average of 8.5 sacks per year.
Bryant McKinnie--Vikings starting LT last two years--gave up 11 sacks each of those years.
Levi Jones--Bengals starting LT--has averaged 9.3 sacks allowed.
Marc Columbo--Chicago reserve LT.
Kendall Simmons--Pittsburgh reserve LG (drafted as an OT).

2nd round
Mike Pearson--Jags reserve OT.
Langston Walker--Oakland reserve LT.

2003 draft

1st round
Jordan Gross--Carolina reported to be moving back to RT after having failed to transition to LT where he was drafted to play.
George Foster--Denver one year starter at RT
Kwame Harris--San Fran may be starter this year at RT after being drafted to play LT.

2nd round
Jon Stinchcomb--New Orleans reserve LT

2004 draft

1st round
Robert Gallery--Oakland started at RT may get LT this year .
Shawn Andrews--Philly set to play RG after having been drafted as a RT
Vernon Carey--Miami reserve RT

2nd round
Jacob Rogers--Dallas reserve LT

As dalemurphy says it is only useful to criticize if you say what would should have been done differently to have a net positive effect on the team. The 2002 LT's certainly weren't worth giving up Carr. Anyone want to seriously argue AJ doesn't benefit the team more than the 2003 OT's would have? Stinchcomb would have only been available after a trade up and in any event, he has barely hit the field more than Joppru. In 2004 only Gallery might have made an impact and it would have come at the price of at least Dunta and Babin--JMO I wouldn't make that trade. I don't see where the value would have made an OT better than what we took in the 1st two rounds which leaves us with a 3rd rounder Wand who has demonstrated good upside potential. Making something a priority doesn't mean ignore value and relative talent. The Texans added more talent to the team through AJ, Dunta, Babin, etc. than they would have by drafting the guys above.
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Old 06-08-2005   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottle-O-Bud
I was out of commision for 4 days (work) and fully expect for the Texans to have added somebody to the line by now.
Didn't "somebody" make the pro-bowl last year? No that's wrong "somebody" got released for being a turnstyle.

Adding "somebody" isn't the solution. Adding a specific player to upgrade a specific player may help. Got any specific suggestions?
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Old 06-08-2005   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
2002 draft

1st round
Mike Williams--Bills starting RT--has given up an average of 8.5 sacks per year.
Bryant McKinnie--Vikings starting LT last two years--gave up 11 sacks each of those years.
Levi Jones--Bengals starting LT--has averaged 9.3 sacks allowed.
Marc Columbo--Chicago reserve LT.
Kendall Simmons--Pittsburgh reserve LG (drafted as an OT).

2nd round
Mike Pearson--Jags reserve OT.
Langston Walker--Oakland reserve LT.

2003 draft

1st round
Jordan Gross--Carolina reported to be moving back to RT after having failed to transition to LT where he was drafted to play.
George Foster--Denver one year starter at RT
Kwame Harris--San Fran may be starter this year at RT after being drafted to play LT.

2nd round
Jon Stinchcomb--New Orleans reserve LT

2004 draft

1st round
Robert Gallery--Oakland started at RT may get LT this year .
Shawn Andrews--Philly set to play RG after having been drafted as a RT
Vernon Carey--Miami reserve RT

2nd round
Jacob Rogers--Dallas reserve LT

As dalemurphy says it is only useful to criticize if you say what would should have been done differently to have a net positive effect on the team. The 2002 LT's certainly weren't worth giving up Carr. Anyone want to seriously argue AJ doesn't benefit the team more than the 2003 OT's would have? Stinchcomb would have only been available after a trade up and in any event, he has barely hit the field more than Joppru. In 2004 only Gallery might have made an impact and it would have come at the price of at least Dunta and Babin--JMO I wouldn't make that trade. I don't see where the value would have made an OT better than what we took in the 1st two rounds which leaves us with a 3rd rounder Wand who has demonstrated good upside potential. Making something a priority doesn't mean ignore value and relative talent. The Texans added more talent to the team through AJ, Dunta, Babin, etc. than they would have by drafting the guys above.
Thank you for supporting the facts with FACTS.
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Old 06-08-2005   #31
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Quote:
The Texans didn't draft any O-Linemen in 2004 - by comparison, the Cowboys, since 1984 have only had 2 drafts (1990 & 2000) that they didn't draft any. Were they all great picks? No, but you gotta bring 'em in to find out!
Quote:
The 2004 draft is the only draft the Texans didn't pick an offensive lineman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by U4ikrob
True - but then again Pitts is the only one drafted in the second round or higher. Everyoen else we have picked up have been 3rd rounders or lower. We certainly have not made the O-line a priority since year 1 when we picked 3 lineman.
disaacks3 implied the Texans needed to draft a lineman every year. My response showed that the Texans have in fact pretty much done that. Have they been high picks? No, but many teams have shown that you can be successful by drafting guys in lower rounds and then developing them. However, when you take into account free agency, you are clearly wrong when you say that the offensive line has not been a priority with the Texans.

Remember in the expansion draft the Texans brought in Tony Boselli and Ryan Young. I won't go through the whole history with Boselli, but it was obvious that the Texans were planning on both of those to be the tackles of the future. Steve McKinney was signed as a free agent. Chester Pitts and Fred Weary were drafted in the regular draft and then Milford Brown was taken in the supplemental draft. Injuries to Boselli, Young, and guard Ryan Schau really decimated the line.

The next offseason the Texans drafted Seth Wand, signed Zach Wiegert and Todd Washington, and traded a fifth rounder for Greg Randall. By all accounts, the line play improved significantly over the year before even though there was still room for improvement. Greg Randall seemed to be an underachiever and wasn't brought back. Weary and Brown weren't developing as fast as everyone wanted, but some players take longer than others...especially offensive linemen.

Last offseason the Texans brought in Todd Wade to solidfy the right tackle spot and Marcus Spears to provide depth at both tackle spots. No one was drafted for the line, but it seemed there was a pretty good blend of veterans brought in from free agency and youngsters developing in the system. The Texans decided to shift Pitts to guard and have Wand start at left tackle as well as change to a zone blocking scheme, so for the third straight offseason there were significant changes to the line.

This offseason the Texans drafted center Drew Hodgen and brought in Victor Riley. They have also been working Pitts out at left tackle and Wand at left guard. Whether they are just working on cross-training for depth purposes or are considering a lineup change remains to be seen. Overall, the Texans seem to be content to have the same line next year without significant changes.

Although they haven't made a lot of changes this offseason, it is clear that the Texans have made the offensive line a priority every offseason. It takes a while to put all the pieces into place when building a team from nothing. In particular, it takes a while to build an offensive line where chemistry and experience together means so much.
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Old 06-08-2005   #32
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OK, I would like any one of our beer-goggle texans' fans to tell me what Casserly and Co. have done for the O-line this year ?

They said it was top priority and what have they done ?


HOW much of this was "draft day" positioning where everybody lies?
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Old 06-08-2005   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
Or, we could have taken Dunta and then Jeff Faine?
That would have been a hell of a draft since they were in different draft classes.
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Old 06-08-2005   #34
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Default excuse me, infantrycak sir

but, some of your statements are misconstrued.

First let me say, I'm not going to go back and redo every draft, cuz who cares and I would've drafted CARR, AJ and D-ROB cuz those positions are arguably the hardest three positions to find playmakers at.

HOWEVER, I'd like to defend some of the decent lineman that you've wrongly assessed.

LEVI JONES - is on track to be one of the elite left tackles in the league. He's better than any LT we've had on our line. How come you didn't say that?

KENDALL SIMMONS - they discovered that he had diabetes right before training camp in 2003.

Here's a quote from steelers.com,
"Simmons, the recipient of the 2002 Joe Greene Great Performance Award as the Steelers' Rookie Of The Year, was diagnosed with hyperglycemia, a diabetic condition that caused him to lose 30 pounds and significant strength right before training camp in 2003. Kendall started 14 of 16 games during his rookie season and helped the Steelers on their way to the AFC Championship game. He previously majored in Visual Communication / Graphic Arts at Auburn University where he was selected as a first team All-American by the NFL Draft Report. Although a season ending injury in the preseason washed out Kendall's 2004 campaign, he remains active in the community while undergoing rehab and looks forward to returning to All Pro form in 2005."

the link - http://secure2.steelers.com/article/48260/

How come you didn't tell us that?
if I were to believe what you wrote, then I'd think that he just sucks?

MIKE PEARSON - Has had some knee injuries, so that somehow makes his talent level lower than Seth Wand ?

JORDAN GROSS - Played decent on the left side of the line, the coaches moved him back to the right side, cuz they weren't dominating their preferred side of the line to run the ball. It was more a reflection on them wanting to get the right side of the line back to what it was when Gross was playing there, then compared to him not being able to handle LT. He played pretty good for a young guy playing LT for the first time in the NFL. How come you didn't tell us that?

ROBERT GALLERY - Well, he's going to be a great lineman, better than anything we've got, so why even try to knock him? Give me a break.

SHAWN ANDREWS - He was already dominating his opponents when he got injured last year. Once again how do you rate a young guy low, when he's already pancaking guys with ease, in the games before he got hurt. How come you didn't tell us that ?

I could keep going, but, I fear that it is only a waste of time, since you think our line is as good as it can be.

AND since you all want to know what should've been done differently.........I'll tell ya.

Trade down into the 20ish spots........pick up more 3rd-4th picks in the drop.........and draft Chris Spencer with whatever 20ish pick we got. Lets say that we traded with Baltimore. Our 16th and 2006 5th rounder for the 22nd pick, and 5th pick (158), and 2006 4th rounder. I'm sure we could've gotten a 4th this year from someone in a trade down, but, I'll make it a more than believable trade.

So here's who I would've picked.

22nd - C - Chris Spencer - regarded as the top lineman in this years draft, one of select few in the O-line draft class that can make immediate start.

73rd - RB - Vernand Morency - I might've gone after DT Attiyah Ellison, since he could be a great fit on our line, with his speed and size......but, I can't knock the Morency pick, since he was the 4th rated back on some teams lists. I'll try to listen to my advisors as much as possible.

114 - WR - Jerome "FLASH" Mathis - This guy is TURBO and in a couple years we could have the fastest starting WR tandem in the league. Definitely a great pick, since all young recievers need work on their route-running anyways. You can't teach speed. We've got enough depth in our receiving corps to give him the proper time to develop. But, like every other FAN I hope they try to get him the ball this year too.

151 - S - Gerald Sensabaugh - This guy is great value in the 5th round. I think he'll be a good starter in this league. I personally think the Defensive line needs a ton of help so I would've lobbied for DT Anthony Bryant, but, they seemed to want a safety as well.

158 - DT - Anttaj Hawthorne - This guy can play anywhere on the line in the 3-4 with his great size and athletic ability. He'll be a starter.

188 - TE - Adam Bergen - One of the few tight ends in the draft that was a decent receiver as well as blocker. He went undrafted but, the Cardinals snatched him up fast as an UDFA

227 - OLB - Derek Wake - He's a great athlete and many scouts said he was probably best suited for 3-4 defense. Capers wants a linebacker, and this guy is already known as a great blitzer and good at covering TEs. The Giants signed him to an UDFA contract. I also might've taken a look at SS Kurt Campbell who at 6-1 233 runs the 40 in 4.47. Had I taken Bryant over Sensabaugh in the 5th round.
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Old 06-08-2005   #35
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Well, let's see how Chris Spencer works out in comparison to Hodgdon and Travis Johnson.

Regarding the previous drafts, you could argue that we got the best players in the draft with each of our first round picks the past three years. That's the point! People are arguing that we aren't spending our top picks on OLmen. Fine, I'll argue that we've drafted 3 future probowlers with our 1st round picks in three seasons... I'll take that. I think any team in the NFL would.

The only difference between the horrible Dallas Cowboy line in 1990 and the great Cowboy OLine of 1992 was one 3rd round pick (Erik Williams)... So, chill out and let this line gel and the talent mature.
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Old 06-08-2005   #36
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So here's who I would've picked.

22nd - C - Chris Spencer - regarded as the top lineman in this years draft, one of select few in the O-line draft class that can make immediate start.

73rd - RB - Vernand Morency - I might've gone after DT Attiyah Ellison, since he could be a great fit on our line, with his speed and size......but, I can't knock the Morency pick, since he was the 4th rated back on some teams lists. I'll try to listen to my advisors as much as possible.

114 - WR - Jerome "FLASH" Mathis - This guy is TURBO and in a couple years we could have the fastest starting WR tandem in the league. Definitely a great pick, since all young recievers need work on their route-running anyways. You can't teach speed. We've got enough depth in our receiving corps to give him the proper time to develop. But, like every other FAN I hope they try to get him the ball this year too.

151 - S - Gerald Sensabaugh - This guy is great value in the 5th round. I think he'll be a good starter in this league. I personally think the Defensive line needs a ton of help so I would've lobbied for DT Anthony Bryant, but, they seemed to want a safety as well.

158 - DT - Anttaj Hawthorne - This guy can play anywhere on the line in the 3-4 with his great size and athletic ability. He'll be a starter.

188 - TE - Adam Bergen - One of the few tight ends in the draft that was a decent receiver as well as blocker. He went undrafted but, the Cardinals snatched him up fast as an UDFA

227 - OLB - Derek Wake - He's a great athlete and many scouts said he was probably best suited for 3-4 defense. Capers wants a linebacker, and this guy is already known as a great blitzer and good at covering TEs. The Giants signed him to an UDFA contract. I also might've taken a look at SS Kurt Campbell who at 6-1 233 runs the 40 in 4.47. Had I taken Bryant over Sensabaugh in the 5th round.



Use our 22nd pick for a center instead of a offensive left tackle, a speedy wide out, any outside linebackers until the 3/4 round?

Man, I don't know Cuz. Even the TE choice (that nobody else wanted) seems seems a little of a reach for the thread you started here about the offensive line priority. Thanks for the ideas though.
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Old 06-08-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by throwANDREtheBALL
First let me say, I'm not going to go back and redo every draft, cuz who cares and I would've drafted CARR, AJ and D-ROB cuz those positions are arguably the hardest three positions to find playmakers at.
Try taking a step back and following the thread. The assertion was made the Texans hadn't made the OL, and particularly the position of most concern LT, a priority demonstrated by the fact they hadn't taken one before the 3rd round. It appears you concede the Texans got the best value in 2002-2004 in the 1st round since you would keep their choices.

Quote:
HOWEVER, I'd like to defend some of the decent lineman that you've wrongly assessed.

LEVI JONES - is on track to be one of the elite left tackles in the league. He's better than any LT we've had on our line. How come you didn't say that?
Get a grip. The above was a dry recitation about the alternates. If on track is averaging 9.3 sacks for his 1st 3 years, then whohoo. The Texans sure were stupid for moving Pitts and his 5.75 sacks from LT. In any event, I didn't say he won't be good but fact is if he had been around for this MB to review after giving being a 1st round pick and giving up 28 sacks in three years, the bust word would be getting thrown around rightly or wrongly.

Quote:
KENDALL SIMMONS - they discovered that he had diabetes right before training camp in 2003.
How come you didn't tell us that?
if I were to believe what you wrote, then I'd think that he just sucks?
Ummm, gee--maybe because it really doesn't matter why he isn't on the field since he wouldn't have contributed more to the Texans than the player they selected. See how that works?

Quote:
MIKE PEARSON - Has had some knee injuries, so that somehow makes his talent level lower than Seth Wand?
On the football field over the last few years, yeah it does.

Quote:
ROBERT GALLERY - Well, he's going to be a great lineman, better than anything we've got, so why even try to knock him? Give me a break.
Give me a break. Where the heck do you see anything knocking Gallery? The point remains--do you give up Dunta and Babin to get him, i.e. does he alone impact the Texans more than they do. Great player or not, IMO no because they are also great players.

Quote:
I could keep going, but, I fear that it is only a waste of time, since you think our line is as good as it can be.
Just when it looks like you have totally missed the point...

Quote:
AND since you all want to know what should've been done differently.........I'll tell ya.

Trade down into the 20ish spots........pick up more 3rd-4th picks in the drop.........and draft Chris Spencer with whatever 20ish pick we got.
...oh my god, there it is. I wouldn't trade what we got but at least you finally gave an on point specific answer.
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Old 06-08-2005   #38
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Originally Posted by BornOrange
disaacks3 implied the Texans needed to draft a lineman every year. My response showed that the Texans have in fact pretty much done that. Have they been high picks? No, but many teams have shown that you can be successful by drafting guys in lower rounds and then developing them. However, when you take into account free agency, you are clearly wrong when you say that the offensive line has not been a priority with the Texans.
I gave a 'factual' statement regarding the Cowboys' tendencies towards drafting O-Lineman. Yep, we've only had one draft SINCE 2002 that we didn't draft an O-lineman, by contrast, SINCE 1984 the Cowboys have only failed to draft an O-lineman twice. For the mathematically challenged out there, The Cowboys drafted an O-Lineman 20/22 Years (90.9%)...the Texans drafted an O-Lineman 3/4 Years (75%).

My implication is that a team known for having an excellent O-line over DECADES considers it a statistical higher priority to draft O-Linemen than the Texans do. Not only that, they CONTINUED to keep drafting O-Linemen even when they had a VERY good line, while the Texans have never even had anything above a mediocre one (at best). Anyone who doesn't consider this ODD, given the statements from the organization regarding their "priorities" vis-a-vis the protection of Carr, might want to reconsider.

I can't fault the Texans for losing out on Pace...we were "played" and that's the end of it. I can fault them for not drafting an O-Lineman in 2004 (gee, was that a "bad" draft too?), and generally not doing too much this offseason to VASTLY improve the line.

As for Pitts, maybe his sack average is good, but taking a look at the whole package, including those pesky penalties, doesn't equate out to a good overall player...yet.

The Dunta/Babin stuff is a valid argument, but can you honestly dispute that having a better O-Line instead might've won more games? That's what counts when the day is done, right?
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Old 06-08-2005   #39
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Originally Posted by disaacks3
I gave a 'factual' statement regarding the Cowboys' tendencies towards drafting O-Lineman. Yep, we've only had one draft SINCE 2002 that we didn't draft an O-lineman, by contrast, SINCE 1984 the Cowboys have only failed to draft an O-lineman twice. For the mathematically challenged out there, The Cowboys drafted an O-Lineman 20/22 Years (90.9%)...the Texans drafted an O-Lineman 3/4 Years (75%).

My implication is that a team known for having an excellent O-line over DECADES considers it a statistical higher priority to draft O-Linemen than the Texans do. Not only that, they CONTINUED to keep drafting O-Linemen even when they had a VERY good line, while the Texans have never even had anything above a mediocre one (at best). Anyone who doesn't consider this ODD, given the statements from the organization regarding their "priorities" vis-a-vis the protection of Carr, might want to reconsider.

I can't fault the Texans for losing out on Pace...we were "played" and that's the end of it. I can fault them for not drafting an O-Lineman in 2004 (gee, was that a "bad" draft too?), and generally not doing too much this offseason to VASTLY improve the line.

As for Pitts, maybe his sack average is good, but taking a look at the whole package, including those pesky penalties, doesn't equate out to a good overall player...yet.

The Dunta/Babin stuff is a valid argument, but can you honestly dispute that having a better O-Line instead might've won more games? That's what counts when the day is done, right?

Well the Cowboys weren't a team still fresh off the books at that time. The first two drafts the Texans had many holes being an expansion team, and were trying to fill all of them. By the time of that 3rd draft, we were ready to start contending and we seriously needed some skill position players. So we got out and drafted them. The results were obvious in our record improvement.
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Old 06-08-2005   #40
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Originally Posted by throwANDREtheBALL
deleted material (by Vinny)
Could you be any more immature? Geez. Seems like you ran out of points to make so you just started attacking the dude. Immature
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