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Old 10-23-2012   #21
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

I just think it's awesome that the Ravens give up a safety early to us, give up a TD on the following drive, and then never come close to being in the game again; but when the Texans did something similar against the Broncos, they were able to fight their way out of the hole, and maintain the lead through the end of the game against a far superior QB. That thought just makes me feel good inside.
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Old 10-23-2012   #22
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
There are a couple of instances where I think Wade might drop a defender back, but neither was the case here.

1. On a blitz and peel, the WILB (James) and the WOLB (Barwin) - depending on the play called - could peel to follow the RB since he was the only offensive thread not cover by any defender. Wade might assign the WILL to spy on the RB; however, as soon as this ILB recognized that the RB stayed back to block, he should continue on with the blitz.

2. Wade could drop on of the LBs into the short hole to help defending any shallow cross that the offense might run as a hot to avoid the blitz.
That's echoing my theory, and I have no access to your resources...nor the time to do so. Just using my eyeballs on that GIF video clip, you can see that 5 of the 6 guys at the LOS are all-out blitzing and James is not.

I won't sit here and say he's not moving upfield. He is. But his initial action at the snap, coupled with his lack of urgency to get to Flacco, tell me he was not a blitzer in the same capacity as the other 5 guys were.

Maybe that's picking nits, I dunno, I'm just saying that I don't personally think James was rushing the QB like the other 5 guys were. Nor should he in most cases, not with his shortcomings in that area. We have the horses elsewhere to get that cart to market.
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Old 10-23-2012   #23
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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That's echoing my theory, and I have no access to your resources...nor the time to do so. Just using my eyeballs on that GIF video clip, you can see that 5 of the 6 guys at the LOS are all-out blitzing and James is not.

I won't sit here and say he's not moving upfield. He is. But his initial action at the snap, coupled with his lack of urgency to get to Flacco, tell me he was not a blitzer in the same capacity as the other 5 guys were.

Maybe that's picking nits, I dunno, I'm just saying that I don't personally think James was rushing the QB like the other 5 guys were. Nor should he in most cases, not with his shortcomings in that area. We have the horses elsewhere to get that cart to market.
I really think you're nitpicking, GP.

A defender that engages a blocker on a blitz is a blitzer; there's no way around it.

Whether he's an effective blitzer is another matter.
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Old 10-23-2012   #24
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I really think you're nitpicking, GP.

A defender that engages a blocker on a blitz is a blitzer; there's no way around it.

Whether he's an effective blitzer is another matter.
So in the BLITZKRIEG of WWII, a Nazi film/photography plane is a blitzer because he's alongside the bombers who are doing the real blitzing?

I think there's room for gray area here. When I think of the word "blitz" I think of an all-out attack to get to the QB. Had James come on a true delayed blitz, I would say he's a blitzer. But engaging his guy, shuffling and then half-ass moving into the middle of the pocket's void was not a blitz in the sense I envision it when we talk about "blitzing."

5 guys immediately move upfield and 1 guy (James) didn't, and truth be told he was roaming that pocket void looking for collateral targets should there be any.

Moving into that fun area of neither of us yielding ground on the issue. I've made my statements, you yours. Just adding to the conversation here.
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Old 10-23-2012   #25
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

To me it looked a symmetrical play. You have a LB/DT stunt with an overload outside blitz. On both sides the OT/OG ended up double-teaming the DT (Smith and Watt). Mercilus hit the inside A-gap faster than James but the OC whiffed there. The RB picked up Manning but that still left Barwin untouched. The OL just didn't make the right protection calls.
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Old 10-23-2012   #26
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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So in the BLITZKRIEG of WWII, a Nazi film/photography plane is a blitzer because he's alongside the bombers who are doing the real blitzing?

I think there's room for gray area here. When I think of the word "blitz" I think of an all-out attack to get to the QB. Had James come on a true delayed blitz, I would say he's a blitzer. But engaging his guy, shuffling and then half-ass moving into the middle of the pocket's void was not a blitz in the sense I envision it when we talk about "blitzing."

5 guys immediately move upfield and 1 guy (James) didn't, and truth be told he was roaming that pocket void looking for collateral targets should there be any.

Moving into that fun area of neither of us yielding ground on the issue. I've made my statements, you yours. Just adding to the conversation here.

When a DC draw up a blitz, each of the guys has his assignment.
No matter how uninspiring the role is, they are all blitzers.

It really depends on how the protection call is.

In this case, the LT took on James and left Barwin free.

You're dreaming if you think that even if the LT had taken on Barwin, James would simply stand there feeling the cool air and then nonchalantly waltz into the middle (where Mercilus and Smith already controlled) to contain an imaginary offensive player that will never come.

Now you can call James a "secondary" blitzer and I would not have any problem with that.

When we called this blitz, we didn't know for sure what the Ravens were going to do.
It makes the most sense in this situation to have the WILB (James) in a blitz and peel situation.

If they send Rice to their left flat, James would follow him (then Manning would be completely free while the LT came back and try to block Barwin.)

If they hand the ball to Rice, James would make the read and try to stop the run.
In this case, it's a run blitz.
James contains the weakside B gap first, and then works to flow to the runner.

If Rice continues on his path to the right flat, leaving Manning completely free, James would also follow him.
Still, James engaged the LT to give Barin time to zero in.

Anyway you look at it, James was a BIG part of the blitz package.
He has to play a good role there to spring a guy free.
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Old 10-23-2012   #27
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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To me it looked a symmetrical play. You have a LB/DT stunt with an overload outside blitz. On both sides the OT/OG ended up double-teaming the DT (Smith and Watt). Mercilus hit the inside A-gap faster than James but the OC whiffed there. The RB picked up Manning but that still left Barwin untouched. The OL just didn't make the right protection calls.
It's not symmetrical, but the concept is right there.
On the weakside, Smith forced the C and LG on a double team; the LT was working on James.

I agree that it does make sense for a delayed blitz by James through one of the A gaps, as the Center came back but didn't quite connect on Mercilus.

Let's say the C was able to get off Smith to hold off Mercilus a little better, and that the LT was able to come back to Barwin somehow; James would be free on that delayed blitz through the middle.
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Old 10-23-2012   #28
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

I think James was on Rice, this was a man coverage. Flacco spotted Manning and Quin on the far right, knew at least one of them was coming and told Rice who is on his left to come back to Flacco's right to block the safety blitz thinking that either James or likely Barwin would drop into coverage. James, seeing that Rice is not going out as a receiver, engages the LT momentarily who had to choose between letting Barwin or James free since Rice had given up his position to go block the safety blitz. James is just reading on Rice's actions. Since Rice helps blocking, James is allowed to engage/blitz/spy whatever you want to call it. Ninja forces LG to block and since the call was likely for the OC to block Smith, LG to help either side, the OC is stuck looking at the wrong guy...which allows Mercilus a free run up the middle as he twists from the strong side, no way the OC could've expected that guy to come from there or that fast (Mercilus is quick!) JJ Watt draws a double and jumps at the only shot at a completion, he knew he was getting it, he knew he had 3 receivers to his side.....smart footballer right there. Manning eats up Rice's block or he likely would've been the one converting the safety.

However you want to explain it, drawing up a 5 (6 with James' read/react blitz) man blitz and having 3 guys come free and clear for a sack/safety is KILLING it. Like dumbest luck of all time. Or a masterful stroke of genius. It was so badass, even Connor Barwin got a sack!!!

Alright that was mean lol....
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Old 10-23-2012   #29
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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I think James was on Rice, this was a man coverage. Flacco spotted Manning and Quin on the far right, knew at least one of them was coming and told Rice who is on his left to come back to Flacco's right to block the safety blitz thinking that either James or likely Barwin would drop into coverage. James, seeing that Rice is not going out as a receiver, engages the LT momentarily who had to choose between letting Barwin or James free since Rice had given up his position to go block the safety blitz. James is just reading on Rice's actions. Since Rice helps blocking, James is allowed to engage/blitz/spy whatever you want to call it. Ninja forces LG to block and since the call was likely for the OC to block Smith, LG to help either side, the OC is stuck looking at the wrong guy...which allows Mercilus a free run up the middle as he twists from the strong side, no way the OC could've expected that guy to come from there or that fast (Mercilus is quick!) JJ Watt draws a double and jumps at the only shot at a completion, he knew he was getting it, he knew he had 3 receivers to his side.....smart footballer right there. Manning eats up Rice's block or he likely would've been the one converting the safety.

However you want to explain it, drawing up a 5 (6 with James' read/react blitz) man blitz and having 3 guys come free and clear for a sack/safety is KILLING it. Like dumbest luck of all time. Or a masterful stroke of genius. It was so badass, even Connor Barwin got a sack!!!

Alright that was mean lol....
And that goes back to what I said: the concept of Blitz and Peel.
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Old 10-23-2012   #30
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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Now with motion!

Hard to avoid that one. Snap at 4:55, going down by 4:53. Nobody open enough to throw to without risk of a pick 6.
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Old 10-23-2012   #31
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

“(Danieal Manning is) a great leader. He was the Cushing of the secondary. He’s just all over the field. He’s able to make plays nobody else can make just because he can run so fast and he’s so athletic. He’s a blitzer. Part of (Connor) Barwin’s sack (of Joe Flacco for a safety on Sunday) is (Manning) was blitzing, so the back didn’t know who to pick up. So he went over and picked him up.”

From another thread. Pretty much what I described, not to toot my own horn too loudly....
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Old 10-23-2012   #32
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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“(Danieal Manning is) a great leader. He was the Cushing of the secondary. He’s just all over the field. He’s able to make plays nobody else can make just because he can run so fast and he’s so athletic. He’s a blitzer. Part of (Connor) Barwin’s sack (of Joe Flacco for a safety on Sunday) is (Manning) was blitzing, so the back didn’t know who to pick up. So he went over and picked him up.”

From another thread. Pretty much what I described, not to toot my own horn too loudly....
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Old 10-23-2012   #33
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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Now with motion!

LOL. Watch James do a little hop right when the sack occurs. He's looping around and gives a little giddy-up.
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Old 10-23-2012   #34
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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LOL. Watch James do a little hop right when the sack occurs. He's looping around and gives a little giddy-up.
You don't say!

The Dutch stopped the gif a bit too early; James was doing the safety celebration right after that, before any of our guys did.

He got the best seat in the house!
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Old 10-23-2012   #35
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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I just think it's awesome that the Ravens give up a safety early to us, give up a TD on the following drive, and then never come close to being in the game again; but when the Texans did something similar against the Broncos, they were able to fight their way out of the hole, and maintain the lead through the end of the game against a far superior QB. That thought just makes me feel good inside.
Excellent point.

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Old 10-23-2012   #36
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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I just think it's awesome that the Ravens give up a safety early to us, give up a TD on the following drive, and then never come close to being in the game again; but when the Texans did something similar against the Broncos, they were able to fight their way out of the hole, and maintain the lead through the end of the game against a far superior QB. That thought just makes me feel good inside.
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Excellent point.

MSR.
We just have a very solid team across the board (and pretty good depth overall), except for ST.

Despite subpar ST play, we've been able to control - for the most part - the TOP and many key defensive areas. You have to be good on both sides of the ball, and that include the line as well the other units to be that consistent.

If you look at all the sites that dedicate to stats and combine them altogether, we're ahead of the league, especially in the consistency.

We're doing a lot of good things to win football games, and we're able to do it in several different ways.
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Old 10-23-2012   #37
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

Eh, I have to cut the gifs off somewhere, or sacrifice quality. There's a delicate balance between size of the gif, the length, number of frames and the color quality. I would have left in his celebration too, but that just makes it too big. So here it is:

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Old 10-23-2012   #38
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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haha...

Cushing is the master of the delay blitz/blitz and peel/read and react/whatever you want to call it. It's all about forcing would-be targets into protection. He recognizes that very quickly and has the speed to either sideline to counter against anyone actually squeaking out of the collapsing pocket while giving the illusion both in motion and presnap of bringing extra pressure.

Really interesting front here, should be the focal point of the discussion. 7 man front including 2 safeties on the line. looks like KJ, JJo and McCain playing middle and I'm either missing a guy or there's a safety deep too. That's bringing some serious heat, Flacco knew it and tried the best he could to set up protections. Doubling Watt was a mistake, leaving one blitzer free. LT going after James instead of Barwin was 2nd, another free and clear blitzer and finally Mercilus slipping by a distracted OC due to the assassin's move. NFL lines don't usually get worked like that. That blitz was genius on ice.
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Old 10-23-2012   #39
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

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haha...

Cushing is the master of the delay blitz/blitz and peel/read and react/whatever you want to call it. It's all about forcing would-be targets into protection. He recognizes that very quickly and has the speed to either sideline to counter against anyone actually squeaking out of the collapsing pocket while giving the illusion both in motion and presnap of bringing extra pressure.

Really interesting front here, should be the focal point of the discussion. 7 man front including 2 safeties on the line. looks like KJ, JJo and McCain playing middle and I'm either missing a guy or there's a safety deep too. That's bringing some serious heat, Flacco knew it and tried the best he could to set up protections. Doubling Watt was a mistake, leaving one blitzer free. LT going after James instead of Barwin was 2nd, another free and clear blitzer and finally Mercilus slipping by a distracted OC due to the assassin's move. NFL lines don't usually get worked like that. That blitz was genius on ice.
Yeah, and guess what

This is the 46 look I talked about when everybody was going gaga about how the Packers exploited our dime package.

We do what we do in our dime package; this time it works.

BTW, you didn't read one of my earlier posts, Nolan was the deep safety.
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Old 10-23-2012   #40
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Default Re: In Depth Look at the Barwin Safety Play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
That's echoing my theory, and I have no access to your resources...nor the time to do so.
Well if you find the time and can understand it, here's a link to Phillips 2003 playbook. I admit most of it goes way over my head. I really haven't spent much time reading it though.

http://www.footballxos.com/free-foot.../pro-defenses/
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