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Old 06-01-2005   #21
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Wow thats alot and it kind of makes you wonder how safe carr is doesnt it. I do think if we utilize our TE, wings, backs and WR's to help Wand out it will make Wand look like a top 10 in my book. I just think its how you use the talent on the field not how good the talent is.
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Old 06-01-2005   #22
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See that's what I'm asking. It's all well and good to find a bunch of guys who can play the position better than Wand in his first year starting. That's a no brainer and I'd be shocked if you didn't have almost 30 LT's who at that moment weren't better LT's than Wand. But it's all relative really. What will Wand look like in a year or two? Where on that list will he be then? I think he's going to be a very good LT or an outstanding RT if he's given the experience and coaching.
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Old 06-01-2005   #23
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Originally Posted by Hulk75
Yea your right lets go get Victor Riley instead he has never done anything wrong....
So we should have kicked Marcus Coleman off the team because he did something 'wrong' last year? These guys aren't Choir boys....well, cept maybe Carr.
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Old 06-01-2005   #24
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Originally Posted by Vinny
So we should have kicked Marcus Coleman off the team because he did something 'wrong' last year? These guys aren't Choir boys....well, cept maybe Carr.
To me it doesn't matter as long as they perfom on Sundays.
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Old 06-01-2005   #25
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Originally Posted by ojthecat
To me it doesn't matter as long as they perfom on Sundays.
I'm not quite that forgiving. I don't need a team full of saints or anything and I can forgive a mistake. What I don't consider acceptable are violations of the law (not traffic tickets and misdemeanors, I mean genuine felony violations). When I read about players beating their wives, getting busted with drugs, or running down officers directing traffic I want to throw the book at them.

In the case of Marcus Coleman (and in fact Steve McNair when he did it) I'm inclined to forgive him a mistake like a single DWI. In that case I'm in the "get some help, straighten out, and don't do it again crowd. A genuine drinking problem on the other hand I cannot condone.

I accept that they're not perfect people however to be on my team there is a limit to what I can accept.
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Old 06-01-2005   #26
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Guys,

We are talking about bringing Turley in as a choice... and is not worthy of a tangent conversation referencing somebody that isn't here anymore as a justification. Such dialog belongs with the lexicon associated with the Raiders ... not the Texans.

Understandably, not all good guys wear white hats. Can you see anything wrong with trying to get good athletes associated with the Texans (a choice) that are not wife beaters or drunks?

In Turley's case... he is of suspect health and looks more like a large pile of problems poured into a football uniform that will serve only as a distraction to the other players and coaching staff.

No Kyle Turley... it just doesn't make sense if I had to be making the decision for setting the tone on how I want to be perceived in the marketplace with a new expansion team.

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Old 06-01-2005   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
These are the 22 that I KNOW are better than Wand right now. There might actually be more:

Matt Light New Eng.
Jason Fabini Jets
Jonathan Ogden Balt
Levi Jones Cinci
Ross Verba Cleve
Marvel Smith Pitt
Tarik Glenn Indi
Brad Hopkins Tenn
Matt Lepsis Denver
Willie Roaf KC
Barry Sims Oakland
Roman Oben San Diego
Flozell Adams Dallas
Tra Thomas Philly
Chris Samuels Wash
Jeff Backus Detroit
Chad Clifton Green Bay
Bryant McKinnie Minnesota
Wayne Gandy New Orleans
Leonard Davis Arizona
Orlando Pace St. Louis
Walter Jones Seattle

Where to start?

Bryant McKinnie has been a huge disapointment. He's a worse run blocker right now than Wand and hasn't been great in pass protection. He plays next to better OLmen and it takes a large truck to sack Culpepper- that's why his sack numbers are better.

ROss Verba- I agree that Verba would help the OL... AT RG!!

Leonard Davis is living off of his college rep. He was drafted high in the first round as a tackle but spent his first 3 seasons playing G.

Tarik Glenn is probably better. However, with the efficiency of that offense he doesn't get tested the way Wand does. Try counting to 4 mississippi and see if Manning ever holds the ball that long.

Matt Light is a quality OL but not a very good tackle in my estimation. Again, that team is efficient on offense and rarely leaves the QB exposed for 4 seconds 10 yards behind the LOS with pressure coming up the gut.


IT's a good list. However, also take into account that most of those guys are making $5million or more per year while Wand is making about 10% of that- meaning the money spent on the OL is distributed elsewhere (C, RG, RT) and yet those positions are part of the problem. If we received value out of the rest of the line and the O.C. did his job, Wand would have help slid to him and RDEs would be getting shut down every Sunday.
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Old 06-01-2005   #28
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For the record, I almost left Ross Verba off of the list. He really is one of those OG/RT types that has been forced to play LT. I put him on the list because I recently read somewhere that he performed on a very higher level last year. Since I only saw him play once, I bowed to this alleged "expert" over my own lack of knowledge.

Wand could turn into a solid LT. The team seems concerned with leaving him there thought. That is evidenced by the fact that they tried to trade for Orlando Pace, brought in LJ Shelton, and have flip-flopped Pitts and Wand in drills. This is his year to show us his stuff. If not I think we will be dipping into the deep LT draft well next year.
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Old 06-01-2005   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
However, also take into account that most of those guys are making $5million or more per year while Wand is making about 10% of that- meaning the money spent on the OL is distributed elsewhere (C, RG, RT) and yet those positions are part of the problem. If we received value out of the rest of the line and the O.C. did his job, Wand would have help slid to him and RDEs would be getting shut down every Sunday.
Left tackle is the 2nd most important position on the offense (for a right handed QB) after the QB IMO. It is almost pointless to overspend on other parts of the line and then get cheap at the LT position. I realize that we haven't exactly had the opportunity to remedy the situation over the past two offseasons (the options were minimal). I'm hoping Wand steps up. I think it is possible, but I also think there is a good chance we will putting in someone else before the season is over.
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Old 06-01-2005   #30
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Don't see where I did that. Just asking a question. If you are going to rip the players you may get responded to. Riley isn't Mr Wonderful, but I get tired of hearing that stuff too.
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Old 06-01-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
I'm hoping Wand steps up. I think it is possible, but I also think there is a good chance we will putting in someone else before the season is over.
Exactly! The hope and I think belief by the Texans is that Wand will improve and be a good LT this season. However, because pass protection is so obviously the glaring weakness on the team, they are going to make sure it is dramatically improved and not take chances... That's why they went after Pace and signed Riley. It's why they sat down with Palmer and discussed the protection schemes and why they are pursuing Shelton and may pursue others this summer. It's also why they are experimenting with flopping Pitts and Wand. They don't want to enter week #5 and realize that their OL plan isn't working and they don't have any other viable options- and that it will be the OL that keeps this team from stepping into the playoffs and truly beginning to compete with the NFL elite.

The Texans are fully addressing the OL. They are exploring options in-house (protection schemes, Pitts and Wand flipping) and outside the house (Pace, Riley, Shelton, Lehr). Those of you so upset with the OL play should be gratified that they are working so hard to make sure it is improved this year...

But, instead, some of you use these efforts to further criticize and condemn the players, coaches, and front office. I DON'T GET IT!!
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Old 06-01-2005   #32
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
But, instead, some of you use these efforts to further criticize and condemn the players, coaches, and front office. I DON'T GET IT!!
I totally agree with you. We are going to make the playoffs this year. I can't wait to hear what these "fans" (I use the term loosly) say when we are in the playoffs. We should be the most upbeat board in NFL and instead I see all of these coments about coaching staff, no blocking, no pass rush. If I didn't know better I would say we would be loosing all of our games. This is absured. Name one team in the NFL that should blow us out. I can not think of any team that we can not go to battle with and have a reasonable expectation of winning. This is the first year I could say this. I can't wait for the playoffs to come because for the first time we will be in them.
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Old 06-01-2005   #33
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Cleveland
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Old 06-01-2005   #34
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Cleveland

Milford Brown (depth)- which is what is being addressed in the midst of all your crying.
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Old 06-02-2005   #35
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its a mute point....turley is 260 pds as of the latest reports. 260 was an average weight of an ol in the 70s, but not now. in addition his back is not healed. i heve heard that his nerves in his back have not regenerated, therefore, i dont think he will play lt or dl anytime soon...
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Old 06-02-2005   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottle-O-Bud
Depth? Funny cause milford hasn't started yet once in.... 3 years..... I dont remember this dude being on the field once.



Wasted roster space due to fatness, injury and inadequacy (sp). His *** should be cut.
Actually, that's not quite true. He's started 4 (2@RG & 2@LG) of the 5 games he's played for the Texans in 3 years. If he could only stay healthy, I'd have to say it's obvious that the coaches believe he could be a starter.
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Old 06-02-2005   #37
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Originally Posted by Bottle-O-Bud
Depth? Funny cause milford hasn't started yet once in.... 3 years..... I dont remember this dude being on the field once.



Wasted roster space due to fatness, injury and inadequacy (sp). His *** should be cut.

My point was that Brown started the Cleveland game last year and he was awful. Signing Shelton and Riley, at the least, improves the line depth which even if they don't start. I was responding to Ibar who, go figure, was bashing the starting OL. When Weigert was injured the OL underperformed. When Wade was injured the line underperformed. Having better depth makes the OL better.
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Old 06-02-2005   #38
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My point was that Brown started the Cleveland game last year and he was awful.
To be fair, Brown played the Cleveland game injured. The game prior, Jacksonville, he looked much better especially on run blocking and the team had a record 211 rushing yards. The Texans averaged close to a ypc more than Jax normally gave up at 4.9 ypc (DD had 5.1 ypc on the day).
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Old 06-02-2005   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
These are the 22 that I KNOW are better than Wand right now. There might actually be more:

Matt Light New Eng.
Jason Fabini Jets
Jonathan Ogden Balt
Levi Jones Cinci
Ross Verba Cleve
Marvel Smith Pitt
Tarik Glenn Indi
Brad Hopkins Tenn
Matt Lepsis Denver
Willie Roaf KC
Barry Sims Oakland
Roman Oben San Diego
Flozell Adams Dallas
Tra Thomas Philly
Chris Samuels Wash
Jeff Backus Detroit
Chad Clifton Green Bay
Bryant McKinnie Minnesota
Wayne Gandy New Orleans
Leonard Davis Arizona
Orlando Pace St. Louis
Walter Jones Seattle
The $64,000 question though is how many of the guys above is Shelton better than?
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Old 06-02-2005   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
The Texans are fully addressing the OL. They are exploring options in-house (protection schemes, Pitts and Wand flipping) and outside the house (Pace, Riley, Shelton, Lehr). Those of you so upset with the OL play should be gratified that they are working so hard to make sure it is improved this year...

But, instead, some of you use these efforts to further criticize and condemn the players, coaches, and front office. I DON'T GET IT!!
I applaud the Pace move. That would have addressed the issue for years.

Riley has been a good RT in the past, but I think he would struggle at LT.

I'm not sure what to make of Shelton. He was a good starter for Arizona until Denny Green came along. I don't know if he got in Green's doghouse for reasons similar to C Pete Kendall (who was cut for allegedly informing the NFLPA that Green was going over the practice limit), or if his play dipped considerably. If it is the former reason, I'd love to have him. He would probably be the LT we need. If it is for the latter reason, though, I have to wonder how much his play has slipped. Was it a product of the new system?

I don't fault the team for not TRYING to address the issue at LT. I just don't think the opportunities have been there these past two years to really do much about it. I think we will get a LT in the 1st round next year unless Wand or Shelton starts and really impresses. I'm not even sure if Shelton will sign with us though.
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