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Old 01-14-2014   #1581
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
manziel isnt a moron like vince, but the maturity level that he's shown makes me believe that he'll have the same ceiling - capped by his own mental issues. unfortunately for manziel, he isnt blessed with the pure physical abilities that would float him a few years before the NFL becomes real.
No matter how often you repeat it, it still doesn't make it true.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1582
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
I agree with you that those pre-New CBA trades are not in line with the current value attributed to draft picks but, as I said, using the RG3 trade as the standard is not accurate either.
I think this is being over-stated. Only in the last few years prior to the new CBA was there talk of the top picks being devalued because of the price tag. Vick's deal was considered huge at the time and is dwarfed by those which came later. He had a $3 mil signing bonus and just $15 mil guaranteed. Bradford got a $20 mil signing bonus and $50 mil guaranteed. I'd say the aberration is the about 5 years prior to the new CBA.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1583
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
Look , you are entitled to your opinion .... fact is , a trade of that magnitude is not without precedent.


Those examples you give are not relevant to this discussion as they were made before the rookie salary scale was put in place which makes those premium picks even more valuable as they give the team making the selection control over that player for a longer period of time at a significant discount as compared to those not on the rookie scale.
Yes of course, all this is just my opinion, as is what you are suggesting as well. None of us are NFL GMs, and everything we are discussing here is pretty much just pure speculation.

The examples I gave are relevant, just like the RG3 example is relevant. Sure the new CBA makes high draft picks more valuable, but in this proposed Cleveland trade you are posting, it works both ways. Yes they would be getting the single most valuable draft pick in our 2014 1.1, but they are also giving up two more first rounders in addition to their #65. Those two first rounders have potential to be very valuable picks as well since like you said the rookie pay scale dictates.

Also keep in mind that the Browns have Hoyer returning next year, who although unproven, showed lots of promise in his limited starts in 2013. If the Browns were to give up so many valuable picks it would be because they have little belief in him ever being a starting caliber QB.

As it stands, there is no precedent for a first overall pick being traded under the new CBA. RG3 trade is the closest thing we have, but again I am of the opinion that that was a terrible trade and should be a cautionary tale to GMs of why not to trade tons of early picks just to get one guy. If you look at all the picks the Rams acquire as a result of that trade, there are a ton of great players the Reskins missed out on. Of course this is just my opinion and hindsight is 20/20. The only other two examples of the first pick being traded are the two I posted, and although they were in a different era of the CBA, it is still relevant because that is all we have to go on.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1584
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Default Re: Manziel

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Old 01-14-2014   #1585
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by matts290 View Post
As it stands, there is no precedent for a first overall pick being traded under the new CBA. RG3 trade is the closest thing we have, but again I am of the opinion that that was a terrible trade and should be a cautionary tale to GMs of why not to trade tons of early picks just to get one guy. If you look at all the picks the Rams acquire as a result of that trade, there are a ton of great players the Reskins missed out on. Of course this is just my opinion and hindsight is 20/20. The only other two examples of the first pick being traded are the two I posted, and although they were in a different era of the CBA, it is still relevant because that is all we have to go on.
Great points and I agree that the RG3 trade was terrible and will serve as a reminder to GM's how such a trade can backfire on your franchise. Not only that, but if the trade for RG3 (who was seen as a can't-miss prospect) was a complete failure....then why would you offer a similar trade for players (Bridgewater, Manziel, Clowney, Mathews) who are not seen as anywhere near that type of prospect?

It just makes no sense and I think guys are just grasping at straws with these trade down scenarios because they don't like the top prospects available. They want to fleece a team like St. Louis did because that would be the absolute best case scenario for the Texans in their minds.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1586
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
no, he couldnt have. what he showed for the titans was his peak. the coaching staff was able to dumb it down enough for his ability to carry him (along with a good run game and defense) to a few wins. once vince had to be an actual quarterback, he cracked. i've talked to several people who have played with and against vince through the years and they all say the same thing. he is the absolute dumbest player they've ever been around. phenomenal talent, but quite literally too stupid to play in the NFL.

manziel isnt a moron like vince, but the maturity level that he's shown makes me believe that he'll have the same ceiling - capped by his own mental issues. unfortunately for manziel, he isnt blessed with the pure physical abilities that would float him a few years before the NFL becomes real.
It's stupid to try and say Manziel won make it in the nfl because young didn't. Especially when the reason he didn't make it was because he was dumber than a box of rocks. Manziel isn't. Case closed.

And this bs abou Manziel being immature is just that, BS. Tell me jus one thing he did this season that shows immaturity. If anything he has proven that he did realize he needed to change his ways and he did it. That is a sign of maturity.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1587
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
Great points and I agree that the RG3 trade was terrible and will serve as a reminder to GM's how such a trade can backfire on your franchise. Not only that, but if the trade for RG3 (who was seen as a can't-miss prospect) was a complete failure....then why would you offer a similar trade for players (Bridgewater, Manziel, Clowney, Mathews) who are not seen as anywhere near that type of prospect?

It just makes no sense and I think guys are just grasping at straws with these trade down scenarios because they don't like the top prospects available. They want to fleece a team like St. Louis did because that would be the absolute best case scenario for the Texans in their minds.
IMO I think y'all are reading the RGIII all wrong. The Skins and RGIII were in playoffs last year, a from worst to first division performance. So clearly not a terrible trade. If there is a lesson and reminder it is that of meddling coddling owner and coach's misuse of an injured player. The book on the RGIII trade is far from being closed.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1588
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
IMO I think y'all are reading the RGIII all wrong. The Skins and RGIII were in playoffs last year, a from worst to first division performance. So clearly not a terrible trade. If there is a lesson and reminder it is that of meddling coddling owner and coach's misuse of an injured player. The book on the RGIII trade is far from being closed.
I gotcha, and I think the perception on RG3 and the trade will vary from person to person. I personally think his rookie season was the best we will see from him. The read-option took the NFL by storm in 2012, but the book is out on it now and it kinda seems like a flash in a pan. Also consider that the Skins made the playoffs in the NFC East, which was a fairly weak division.

Either way, the Skins did do a worst to first deal, but then turned around and did the opposite this year in a first to worst (Texans style). Now they have tons of holes on both sides of the ball, and no first round picks for the next couple years, plus a new coach, and now they are in rebuilding mode without the recourses to do so.

But I am kinda getting off topic here...
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Old 01-14-2014   #1589
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by matts290 View Post
I gotcha, and I think the perception on RG3 and the trade will vary from person to person. I personally think his rookie season was the best we will see from him. The read-option took the NFL by storm in 2012, but the book is out on it now and it kinda seems like a flash in a pan. Also consider that the Skins made the playoffs in the NFC East, which was a fairly weak division.

Either way, the Skins did do a worst to first deal, but then turned around and did the opposite this year in a first to worst (Texans style). Now they have tons of holes on both sides of the ball, and no first round picks for the next couple years, plus a new coach, and now they are in rebuilding mode without the recourses to do so.

But I am kinda getting off topic here...
The read option had little to do with rg3s success last year.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1590
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
The read option had little to do with rg3s success last year.
Ummm, what? You can't be serious, RG3s ability to run the zone read so well is what made that offense tick. It set up play action in which the Redskins were the most effective in the league at in 2012, and in the Shanahan's own words their success in the zone read opened up so many more play calling opportunities for him. The read option had tons to do with RG3s success in his first year.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...hocking-people

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/09/05/kyle-s...3-read-option/
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Old 01-14-2014   #1591
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by matts290 View Post
Oh gotcha, read that wrong.

And yeah I agree, major trades just don't happen a ton in the NFL which is another reason why I don't see us getting a legendary offer for our #1 pick. St Louis is in a better position to trade down, because they have other picks to deal with, while we don't really have the luxury of giving up additional picks...plus one would assume the #1 overall comes at a notable higher price than the #2, and that price is probably not justifiable given the players in this draft.

In my opinion, Manziel and Teddy are the only top 10 worthy QBs in this draft, and I think come draft time their stock will be similar and we will have people who are in both their camps, therefore, theoretically Cleveland could trade up to STL for a cheaper price and still get one of them.
Only if you ignore the desire of Oakland and Minnesota or even Cincinnati to do the same thing. Imagine having your heart set on a particular player, only to have it chosen by the team that trades with Houston. Why not just deal with Houston and eliminate the risk? St. Louis is in a good position, Houston is in the catbird seat.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1592
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Marshall View Post
Only if you ignore the desire of Oakland and Minnesota or even Cincinnati to do the same thing. Imagine having your heart set on a particular player, only to have it chosen by the team that trades with Houston. Why not just deal with Houston and eliminate the risk? St. Louis is in a good position, Houston is in the catbird seat.
Oakland and Minnesota do not have a second 2014 first rounder though and they are picking even later than Cleveland, so it would require a lot more future round picks. Plus us trading down past Cleveland pretty much says we don't want any of the top flight QBs in this draft, which I in no way see happening.

And NFL front offices don't get their heart set on a player, because they know there is always a chance they won't get him. They are business men, not fans like on a message board.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1593
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
It's stupid to try and say Manziel won make it in the nfl because young didn't. Especially when the reason he didn't make it was because he was dumber than a box of rocks. Manziel isn't. Case closed.

And this bs abou Manziel being immature is just that, BS. Tell me jus one thing he did this season that shows immaturity. If anything he has proven that he did realize he needed to change his ways and he did it. That is a sign of maturity.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1594
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
It's stupid to try and say Manziel won make it in the nfl because young didn't. Especially when the reason he didn't make it was because he was dumber than a box of rocks. Manziel isn't. Case closed.

And this bs abou Manziel being immature is just that, BS. Tell me jus one thing he did this season that shows immaturity. If anything he has proven that he did realize he needed to change his ways and he did it. That is a sign of maturity.
Not being professional enough to finish out the Manning passing academy. I'm not saying it's a big red flag, but it did happen. It's not exactly an act of high character.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1595
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bOODRO87 View Post
Not being professional enough to finish out the Manning passing academy. I'm not saying it's a big red flag, but it did happen. It's not exactly an act of high character.
That was actually before the season started. He caugh a lot of grief for it. Really nothing he has done was a big deal. It was just blown out of porportion because he was so much under the spotlight.

Again he took his lumps/criticism and went into this season and completed it without having any mishaps. If he was such a bad person with bad character he sure pulled a fast one.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1596
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Default Re: Manziel

During the season Manziel is all business. Nary a peep heard about him attending parties and/or getting up to no good during football season.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1597
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Default Re: Manziel

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That was actually before the season started. He caugh a lot of grief for it. Really nothing he has done was a big deal. It was just blown out of porportion because he was so much under the spotlight.

Again he took his lumps/criticism and went into this season and completed it without having any mishaps. If he was such a bad person with bad character he sure pulled a fast one.
I agree with you , nothing he did was all that .... But the media made a big deal outa everything. That along with the A&M defense probably cost him a second Heisman.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1598
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Default Re: Manziel

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During the season Manziel is all business. Nary a peep heard about him attending parties and/or getting up to no good during football season.
A sure sign of maturity.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1599
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
IMO I think y'all are reading the RGIII all wrong. The Skins and RGIII were in playoffs last year, a from worst to first division performance. So clearly not a terrible trade. If there is a lesson and reminder it is that of meddling coddling owner and coach's misuse of an injured player. The book on the RGIII trade is far from being closed.
^^^^
This

RG3 still has the ability to be a great QB. He needs to get healthy and will learn plenty under Gruden.
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Old 01-14-2014   #1600
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
^^^^
This

RG3 still has the ability to be a great QB. He needs to get healthy and will learn plenty under Gruden.
Can't believe people are already giving up on him. I would trade our number one for him right now.
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