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Old 01-11-2014   #1481
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by kingtexan View Post
I agree, and was just quoting Eric Winston.

I do see where it could apply more to the QB position.
Agree. QB has the highest impact on the field. But it applies to all of them, not just Manziel.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1482
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
Do you like Bridgewater better than Manziel?
At this point I do, subject to change.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1483
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
You can find instances of just about any QB's mechanics breaking down .... but in general , Manziel has superior mechanics to Bridgewater. When he's in a clean pocket , his footwork , ball position & throwing motion are very much like that of ..... Peyton Manning.

Until things break down , Manziel keeps the ball high and tight , yes , when he starts running around his mechanics go to sh!t .... which is why I specified in the pocket.

Hey , if Bridgewater or Bortles is your guy , that's fine with me .... I hadn't made a decision on any of the three until very recently & I'm no A&M homer .... at this point , I think Manziel is probably the better of the three.
His reads are also in sync with his feet. Each step appears to be a new read, & he steps into his throw fluidly from his last read.

Bridgewater's feet are doing the right thing, but from what I've seen, his feet are totally independent from his reads. Maybe he has another way (perhaps a better way) of staying in sync with his receivers... I can not speak to that.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1484
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Count me in this group

This is probably why I don't like any of the QB's in this yrs draft.
I like Manziel & Bortles , not sure if either is a true franchise guy , top 5 in the NFL type but think either could be given the right circumstances .... Bridgewater is a much bigger gamble IMO.


Now whether or not I expect Rick Smith to make the right choice ..... that's a totally different story. He's prone to making some head scratchers.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1485
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I like Manziel & Bortles , not sure if either is a true franchise guy , top 5 in the NFL type but think either could be given the right circumstances .... Bridgewater is a much bigger gamble IMO.


Now whether or not I expect Rick Smith to make the right choice ..... that's a totally different story. He's prone to making some head scratchers.
Wouldn't the bigger concern be our ability to present the "right circumstances" Another way of looking at it, is that Rick Smith can't screw it up if the coaches do their job.

Now if the guy we get believes getting to the NFL is the goal & they don't commit to becoming the best.... yeah, he picked the wrong guy. But I personally don't believe that will be a problem with either of the three.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1486
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by kingtexan View Post
Nope
It was bothering me, I had to look it up. Lord Bills is who it was. Sorry about that.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1487
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
You can find instances of just about any QB's mechanics breaking down .... but in general , Manziel has superior mechanics to Bridgewater. When he's in a clean pocket , his footwork , ball position & throwing motion are very much like that of ..... Peyton Manning.

Until things break down , Manziel keeps the ball high and tight , yes , when he starts running around his mechanics go to sh!t .... which is why I specified in the pocket.

Hey , if Bridgewater or Bortles is your guy , that's fine with me .... I hadn't made a decision on any of the three until very recently & I'm no A&M homer .... at this point , I think Manziel is probably the better of the three.
Before we continue this discussion let me sa this, I like maniziel. I think he's,fun,instinctive,and a competitor. Let me also say I would never draft him. Its not that I really wouldn't, its where my value is vs his percieved value.

Back to our discussion, manziel is not sound in the pocket and has a bit of a windup. Not to metion,he's not reading defenses at all. He's reading 1 route,then after that, he's running around or retreating in the pocket. When the pocket is closing down, he can't see. So he gets outside the pocket to see. I watched lsu last night on my dvr, and all they did was rob underneath routes and "sugar" rush him. The de's didn't get past him,they faked blitzes and took away those short routes underneath. When he was forced to drive the ball outside,he couldn't do it. He has a good arm,doesn't mean he can drive the ball.

Look,all the prospect got something they need to work on. Just like phil simms questioned lucks ability to drive the ball and other talked of the compact offense he ran at stanford. With rg3,they really didn't have plays per se,more ad lib,but they said he had the acumen to pick up a nfl offense. None of the guys are perfect and there has never been a perfect,flawless prospect to come out. These guys are 20,21,22 and some will get better and some never develop. Miami said ryan was maxed out physically and henne had more upside. So they brought in pennington,drafted long 1st and henne 2 and won the division. Few yrs later,they had to draft another qb at 8 and long is with fisher and the rams. The falcons bombed this season,but up until this year,ryan had as many wins as anyone in the league. So the most important thing is to get the pick right more than anything.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1488
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I like Manziel & Bortles , not sure if either is a true franchise guy , top 5 in the NFL type but think either could be given the right circumstances .... Bridgewater is a much bigger gamble IMO.
I really don't know how you could look at Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel as prospects and call Bridgewater the biggest gamble. It's quite the opposite. He has the highest floor of all of them. Unless, by biggest gamble, you mean that he might have the lowest ceiling?
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Old 01-11-2014   #1489
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
I really don't know how you could look at Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel as prospects and call Bridgewater the biggest gamble. It's quite the opposite. He has the highest floor of all of them. Unless, by biggest gamble, you mean that he might have the lowest ceiling?

I'm confused by it as well. He said manziel has the best mechanics and superior feet when he has a clean pocket which I dispute. Not to mention the guys head never moves once he recieves the snap. His head moves on improvision. Its clear,everyone has their favorites in terms of qb. I like bridgewater,texian is in love with bortles,some guys are pumping up mettenburger,and other like manziel. As long as we can be a little objective about it, its good discusion.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1490
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
I'm confused by it as well. He said manziel has the best mechanics and superior feet when he has a clean pocket which I dispute. Not to mention the guys head never moves once he recieves the snap. His head moves on improvision. Its clear,everyone has their favorites in terms of qb. I like bridgewater,texian is in love with bortles,some guys are pumping up mettenburger,and other like manziel. As long as we can be a little objective about it, its good discusion.
A.J. McCarron looked great when he had a clean pocket too. The whole knock on him was what would he look like without one. We found out. I could care less what Manziel or Bridgewater look like in a clean pocket. It doesn't matter. Gabbert looks great in a clean pocket. What do these guys look like when the play breaks down? That's what's important.
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Old 01-11-2014   #1491
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
It was bothering me, I had to look it up. Lord Bills is who it was. Sorry about that.
No worries. Typically the only time I mention cross-dressing is in reference to Infantrycak or 2012 Champs ...
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Old 01-12-2014   #1492
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Before we continue this discussion let me sa this, I like maniziel. I think he's,fun,instinctive,and a competitor. Let me also say I would never draft him. Its not that I really wouldn't, its where my value is vs his percieved value.

Back to our discussion, manziel is not sound in the pocket and has a bit of a windup. Not to metion,he's not reading defenses at all. He's reading 1 route,then after that, he's running around or retreating in the pocket. When the pocket is closing down, he can't see. So he gets outside the pocket to see. I watched lsu last night on my dvr, and all they did was rob underneath routes and "sugar" rush him. The de's didn't get past him,they faked blitzes and took away those short routes underneath. When he was forced to drive the ball outside,he couldn't do it. He has a good arm,doesn't mean he can drive the ball.

Look,all the prospect got something they need to work on. Just like phil simms questioned lucks ability to drive the ball and other talked of the compact offense he ran at stanford. With rg3,they really didn't have plays per se,more ad lib,but they said he had the acumen to pick up a nfl offense. None of the guys are perfect and there has never been a perfect,flawless prospect to come out. These guys are 20,21,22 and some will get better and some never develop. Miami said ryan was maxed out physically and henne had more upside. So they brought in pennington,drafted long 1st and henne 2 and won the division. Few yrs later,they had to draft another qb at 8 and long is with fisher and the rams. The falcons bombed this season,but up until this year,ryan had as many wins as anyone in the league. So the most important thing is to get the pick right more than anything.
He's not reading defenses at all? You couldn't be more wrong.
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Old 01-12-2014   #1493
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
I'm confused by it as well. He said manziel has the best mechanics and superior feet when he has a clean pocket which I dispute. Not to mention the guys head never moves once he recieves the snap. His head moves on improvision. Its clear,everyone has their favorites in terms of qb. I like bridgewater,texian is in love with bortles,some guys are pumping up mettenburger,and other like manziel. As long as we can be a little objective about it, its good discusion.
Your head doesn't have to move a whole lot for your eyes to scan the field ..... Its easier for a defender to pick up on head movement than it is eye movement giving away the QB's intentions. Often QB's look off defenders as well .... QB is a complicated position.




As I've stated several times , I don't know who I want at this point among those three QB's. I don't have a real favorite , they all have their warts and I'm still trying to evaluate each of them.

I think I have been one of the most objective on the entire forum on this subject along with TK ... while the majority of others have already made their decision.

I've got three issues with Bridgewater - sloppy mechanics , low level of competition & that loop in his throwing motion.

Manziel has a couple things that bother me - Plays in the spread , his height & I have to wonder how his style of play translates to the NFL when everyone on the field is a great athlete. (then I watch him shred a very good Alabama defense)

To be honest , Bortles is probably the safer pick among the three ... he's solid everywhere but not great anywhere either ... Highest downside , lowest upside.


As for the comparison of mechanics , I've shown examples (in a clean pocket) those are difficult to refute. There are dozens of images showing these QB's & Youtube has a hundred or more examples of each in video form .... go take a look and compare them for yourself. Then come back and present us with your evidence .... don't just dispute my presentation with an empty argument.



Signed:
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Old 01-12-2014   #1494
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
Your head doesn't have to move a whole lot for your eyes to scan the field ..... Its easier for a defender to pick up on head movement than it is eye movement giving away the QB's intentions. Often QB's look off defenders as well .... QB is a complicated position.




As I've stated several times , I don't know who I want at this point among those three QB's. I don't have a real favorite , they all have their warts and I'm still trying to evaluate each of them.

I think I have been one of the most objective on the entire forum on this subject along with TK ... while the majority of others have already made their decision.

I've got three issues with Bridgewater - sloppy mechanics , low level of competition & that loop in his throwing motion.

Manziel has a couple things that bother me - Plays in the spread , his height & I have to wonder how his style of play translates to the NFL when everyone on the field is a great athlete. (then I watch him shred a very good Alabama defense)

To be honest , Bortles is probably the safer pick among the three ... he's solid everywhere but not great anywhere either ... Highest downside , lowest upside.


As for the comparison of mechanics , I've shown examples (in a clean pocket) those are difficult to refute. There are dozens of images showing these QB's & Youtube has a hundred or more examples of each in video form .... go take a look and compare them for yourself. Then come back and present us with your evidence .... don't just dispute my presentation with an empty argument.



Signed:
Still undecided.
I've been here for a while. I've said I'm ok with any of the 3 QB's that BOB thinks fits his system the best. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. A legitimate case for any one of them could be made for number one. Same for Clowney and even Barr. I would add another name in there to but don't want to throw this thread off into a frenzy.
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Old 01-12-2014   #1495
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Default Re: Manziel

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I would add another name in there to but don't want to throw this thread off into a frenzy.
oh just do it! Do it!
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Old 01-13-2014   #1496
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
There was no doubt in my mind that there were people here who wanted us to draft Johnny Manziel. I knew they were here. It makes sense. He's obviously talented. We need a talented QB... no, we need a special QB & while Bridgewater is very good, he's not special.
I think both can be special, I think both also have NFL failure potential. They're both risks, for different reasons.

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Ideally we trade down to three and get Manziel or Bridgewater. If thats not available and we get a great offer I'm willing to trade down no lower than 1.6.. I feel like there are six elite players in this draft and I want one of them.


*Javedon Clowney DE South Carolina (X)
*Teddy Bridgewater QB Louisville
Anthony Barr LB UCLA
*Sammie Watkins WR Clemson
*Blake Bortles QB Central Florida
*Johnny Manziel QB Texas A&M

To trade down lower than that it would have to be an incredible offer.
Unless you're convinced Watkins is the next Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, or Jerry Rice - no way at 1:1.

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Originally Posted by matts290 View Post
Huh? How was me mentioning the fact that Cedric was a first round draft pick condescending? After all he did receive a first round grade from the NFL board so I think my statement was fairly factual.


Sorry, it came across as condescending, as in "he's so good, there's no way he got beat on that play". I saw the pocket collpase (eventually) as he forced his guy the long way around.

As to the Pic, you got me!
It must've been damn quick, because at full speed it isn't noticeable.

Generally speaking, we agree on Johnny.

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Let me clarify, Russell Wilson is 5'10" would you draft him today at 1-1? I think JF will measure closer to 6'0" than 5'10". Me personally I don't draft JF 1-1 but it has nothing to w/ his height and everything to do with Bortles and Bridgewater still on the board.

Feel Better?
So, you rank JM no higher than 3rd among the QBs? If it isn't height, why so?
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Old 01-13-2014   #1497
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
Your head doesn't have to move a whole lot for your eyes to scan the field ..... Its easier for a defender to pick up on head movement than it is eye movement giving away the QB's intentions. Often QB's look off defenders as well .... QB is a complicated position.




As I've stated several times , I don't know who I want at this point among those three QB's. I don't have a real favorite , they all have their warts and I'm still trying to evaluate each of them.

I think I have been one of the most objective on the entire forum on this subject along with TK ... while the majority of others have already made their decision.

I've got three issues with Bridgewater - sloppy mechanics , low level of competition & that loop in his throwing motion.

Manziel has a couple things that bother me - Plays in the spread , his height & I have to wonder how his style of play translates to the NFL when everyone on the field is a great athlete. (then I watch him shred a very good Alabama defense)

To be honest , Bortles is probably the safer pick among the three ... he's solid everywhere but not great anywhere either ... Highest downside , lowest upside.


As for the comparison of mechanics , I've shown examples (in a clean pocket) those are difficult to refute. There are dozens of images showing these QB's & Youtube has a hundred or more examples of each in video form .... go take a look and compare them for yourself. Then come back and present us with your evidence .... don't just dispute my presentation with an empty argument.



Signed:
Still undecided.
I don't agree with much if what you say regarding the qb's but i just dispute one thing. You do have to move your head to scan the field.

Have you ever had a football helmet on? It restricts your vision. You can scan a lot of the field with just your eyes, but if you're going sideline to sideline there will be some head movement.
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Old 01-13-2014   #1498
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Default Re: Manziel

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We have our first love affair...

Adam Caplan ‏@caplannfl
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For those questioning whether the #Browns rumors on Manziel are legit this early, Lombardi can't help his obsession. Hoyer was it last yr.

Once Manziel announces his intention today to enter this year's draft, the speculation officially starts for the #Browns to draft him.
Report: Cleveland Browns high on Johnny Manziel
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Are the Cleveland Browns smoke-screening their draft plans four months in advance? Or will they put the club's future in the hands of a new coach, only to put that coach's future in the hands of Johnny Manziel?

For the second time in a month, a report has surfaced indicating the club has a strong interest in drafting the dynamic Texas A&M star who is turning pro with two years of college eligibility remaining, and that its coaching hire may be made with that in mind. This time, it's cbssports.com reporting the interest. A couple weeks ago, Sports Illustrated's Peter King wrote something along the same lines.
Add Jason LaCanfora/CBSSports to Peter King/MMQB.SI in reporting Lombardi's lust for Johnny Football.
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Old 01-13-2014   #1499
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
I think both can be special, I think both also have NFL failure potential. They're both risks, for different reasons.

Unless you're convinced Watkins is the next Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, or Jerry Rice - no way at 1:1.

Sorry, it came across as condescending, as in "he's so good, there's no way he got beat on that play". I saw the pocket collpase (eventually) as he forced his guy the long way around.

As to the Pic, you got me!
It must've been damn quick, because at full speed it isn't noticeable.

Generally speaking, we agree on Johnny.

So, you rank JM no higher than 3rd among the QBs? If it isn't height, why so?
Never said I would take Watkins at 1.1.. I said if we were to trade down I still want to end up with one of those six players.
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Old 01-13-2014   #1500
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Default Re: Manziel

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Never said I would take Watkins at 1.1.. I said if we were to trade down I still want to end up with one of those six players.
Fair enough, I still wouldn't take him before any of the other asterisk'd ones.
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