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Old 01-09-2014   #1381
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
Like I said before, I have major reservations about drafting a player if the plan is to "fix" his best quality once we draft him. If that's the plan then what does he bring to the table outside of that ability that makes him a better prospect than Bridgewater or Bortles?
I disagree that is his best quality. His accuracy/ball placement is by far his best quality. He has made far more great throws than he has made great plays with his legs. Both those qualities are on pare with Bridgewater. To me he is only slightly below Bridgewater as a prospect only because of the offense he played in. Bridgewater is the more pro ready prospect at this point. However if Bridgewater is as frail as he looks in the weigh ins I would take Manziel without hesitation.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1382
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Errant Hothy View Post
Rep! Excellent article. After reading it, I am even more impressed by Johnny Football.

I do not believe everyone that dislikes Johnny Football is a "hater". In fact, there have been plenty of people in this thread that have made great arguments against drafting Manziel. It's the uniformed posters (especially of the UT, VY lovin' variety) that simply hate Manziel because their coach was too stupid to make him an offer to play QB.

Anyway, here are some of the best points, IMO, from the article:

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- For all the criticism Manziel gets, he’s extremely good at hitting his targets downfield. His ‘NFL type’ throws in the 11-20 yard range is the highest in the top 8 QBs in this class at 70.5% and he’s slightly better than Bortles at hitting the 20+ yard throws.

- Before we start getting into the debates about Manziel scrambling around the heaving it up for Mike Evans…his accuracy was similar when throwing solely from the pocket, hitting 67% of his 11-20 yard passes and 59% of his 20+ yard passes

- Bridgewater, Bortles and Manziel’s systems had a limited effect on their results from the 2013 season. As you can see in the first section, none of them played in a system that put them in a position to artificially increase their production.
And although it has nothing to do with Manziel, I found this little nugget about Bridgewater incredible. He really does have the makings of a potentially special player:

Quote:
- When looking at both categories, Bridgewater is the clear winner. He and Bortles both complete about 63% of their passes when under pressure, but Bridgewater is heads above the other QBs against the blitz – nearly matching his ability when there are no extra rushers.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1383
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Default Re: Manziel

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I'm not talking about the Cunningham played 16 years and NFL. I'm talking about a young Randall Cunningham. Say his first 2 or three years.
My bad. I misunderstood your point. But I do believe that Randall Cunningham would be Manziel's peak potential. And that is not a bad thing, look up his stats when he was healthy.

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And until Manziel shows he has injury problems, I'm not too worried about that. The rules now are in favor of the QB and I believe he can be broke of his bad habits. I'm more concerned with Bridgewaters frail body not being able to take punishment than Manziels style of play.
Bridgewater is not any more frail than Manziel. They are both skinny guys. You can argue that Bridgewater is skinnier but the point is moot. Both need to get thicker.

And style of play is important. Manziel's style opens him up to being affected by more injuries than Teddy. A torn ACL or even an ankle sprain doesn't change who Teddy is. It possibly changes Manziel a great deal. I'm not saying he is more likely to suffer one. I'm saying that the effects of injury will affect him more. These are legitimate concerns. Not necessarily deal breakers, but legitimate.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1384
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Default Re: Manziel

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My bad. I misunderstood your point. But I do believe that Randall Cunningham would be Manziel's peak potential. And that is not a bad thing, look up his stats when he was healthy.



Bridgewater is not any more frail than Manziel. They are both skinny guys. You can argue that Bridgewater is skinnier but the point is moot. Both need to get thicker.

100% agree!

And style of play is important. Manziel's style opens him up to being affected by more injuries than Teddy. A torn ACL or even an ankle sprain doesn't change who Teddy is. It possibly changes Manziel a great deal. I'm not saying he is more likely to suffer one. I'm saying that the effects of injury will affect him more. These are legitimate concerns. Not necessarily deal breakers, but legitimate.


I agree with the first part. The second not so much. To say that it would change who he is is selling his passing ability short IMO. I guess I have a higher opinion of his football IQ and his QB passing skills than other people.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1385
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Default Re: Manziel

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I agree with the first part. The second not so much. To say that it would change who he is is selling his passing ability short IMO. I guess I have a higher opinion of his football IQ and his QB passing skills than other people.
I think the last sentence is true. But we all have different thoughts about every prospect.

I don't hold him in poor regard concerning his passing abilities, but his legs make him who he is. I don't think that's even debatable. I'm not saying he can't alter his game and play solely from the pocket. But without his running ability he is a totally different player. The more you have to change, the harder it is to project how he will end up.

Maybe he could adapt, maybe he couldn't. To me, it's not worth the risk with Bridgewater sitting right there. His biggest weapon is his mind, which I think is the one similarity that every great QB has.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1386
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Default Re: Manziel

Almost all the highlights two pages back were from his freshman year. Let's do more recent stuff. The only egregious jump ball was the one during the Alabama game.

I'm not pushing JF, (my drafts indicate I'm very much a Bridgewater guy) but let's be honest with our appraisal of him.





These are examples of plays he's made all year, and it's obvious that he has shown progression from last year's constant scrambling.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1387
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Default Re: Manziel

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Almost all the highlights two pages back were from his freshman year. Let's do more recent stuff. The only egregious jump ball was the one during the Alabama game.
I wish someone would post non running/scraming highlights. That's the problem, his scrambling highlights are so exciting that people tend to ignore the rest of his abilities.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1388
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by htownfan32 View Post
Almost all the highlights two pages back were from his freshman year. Let's do more recent stuff. The only egregious jump ball was the one during the Alabama game.
Yup.

Manziel stayed in the pocket much more this year and made some amazing throws, with much fewer jump-ball throws. Had he stayed another year and continued improving, I think he'd still be the #1 or #2 QB taken, even with Mariotta and the other guys.

And Manziel's "running ability" isn't really his greatest asset, it's really his quickness and "escape-ability" that comes with a 6th sense of knowing where the pressure is coming from, slipping away or extending the play and still making a good throw.

I just hope for his sake he doesn't get drafted by the Browns. That organization is a great place to kill a promising career.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1389
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Default Re: Manziel

The thing about Manziel for me is that his "wow" plays cover up so many of his flaws and bad habits when you are watching his games and highlight reels. He is a playmaker no doubt, but can all these crazy plays translate to the next level? Not likely.

Take his most recent performance in the Chick fil A bowl, the play where he jumped over a downline man for no apparent reason, and and the darts back out of the mess to lob a wide open pass to Labhart. It was an incredible play, almost as incredible as the Alabama half fumble TD to Swope play, and as an Aggie I scream and cheer every time he does something like that...but as a sensible football fan I know these type of plays will not work in the NFL.



First off, he panics for no reason. He he had a huge, clean pocket to stay in and go through all his reads to try and find an open man. Instead he decides to take off with out ever scanning the left half of the field, in which he had two guys very open. The whole jumping over the D lineman and bouncing back was exciting, but come on it's a one in a million play. The he runs back out and makes a easy as cake throw to Labhart for the TD. First off he had Walker open on left, he put a double move on his man off the LOS and was open and streaking into the end zone. If Manziel would have seen this, the whole wacky running play would have never been necessary. Plus, he even had Labhart wide open in the flat, in which Johnny saw because Labhart jumped up and down with his hands up and Johnny looked right at him...but instead ignore the smart decision and took of.

I know of course this is just one play, but it is the most recent wow play in memory and is the perfect example of why Johnny will have to change his game a lot to translate into the next level. He improved greatly as a pocket passer from 12 to 13, but he is still a ways away from being ready to do it in the NFL in my opinion, and that is why I don't believe he is worthy of the #1 overall pick.

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Old 01-09-2014   #1390
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by matts290 View Post
The thing about Manziel for me is that his "wow" plays cover up so many of his flaws and bad habits when you are watching his games and highlight reels. He is a playmaker no doubt, but can all these crazy plays translate to the next level? Not likely.

Take his most recent performance in the Chick fil A bowl, the play where he jumped over a downline man for no apparent reason, and and the darts back out of the mess to lob a wide open pass to Labhart. It was an incredible play, almost as incredible as the Alabama half fumble TD to Swope play, and as an Aggie I scream and cheer every time he does something like that...but as a sensible football fan I know these type of plays will not work in the NFL.



First off, he panics for no reason. He he had a huge, clean pocket to stay in and go through all his reads to try and find an open man. Instead he decides to take off with out ever scanning the left half of the field, in which he had two guys very open. The whole jumping over the D lineman and bouncing back was exciting, but come on it's a one in a million play. The he runs back out and makes a easy as cake throw to Labhart for the TD. First off he had Kennedy open on left, he put a double move on his man off the LOS and was open and streaking into the end zone. If Manziel would have seen this, the whole wacky running play would have never been necessary. Plus, he even had Labhart wide open in the flat, in which Johnny saw because Labhart jumped up and down with his hands up and Johnny looked right at him...but instead ignore the smart decision and took of.

I know of course this is just one play, but it is the most recent wow play in memory and is the perfect example of why Johnny will have to change his game a lot to translate into the next level. He improved greatly as a pocket passer from 12 to 13, but he is still a ways away from being ready to do it in the NFL in my opinion, and that is why I don't believe he is worthy of the #1 overall pick.
I guess it would of been better IYO if he had just thrown an incomplete pass. Dam him for turning nothing into something.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1391
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Default Re: Manziel

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I guess it would of been better IYO if he had just thrown an incomplete pass. Dam him for turning nothing into something.
Haha I agree that it's silly that Manziel's playmaking ability is being turned into such a negative attribute. I think it's a great attribute. I just think he relies on it too often.

I think matts290 is right on this one. When I watch that play, Labhart looks open the whole time. In the NFL, Manziel takes a sack on that play, because he should have seen Labhart much sooner.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1392
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Default Re: Manziel

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I guess it would of been better IYO if he had just thrown an incomplete pass. Dam him for turning nothing into something.
Except it wasn't nothing, he had two guys wide open. Sure if everyone was covered and the pressure was bearing down on him. But he he two guys wide open to his left and plenty of time left in the pocket, his O lineman were holding all their blocks. Cedric was stonewalling number #93 and Malena layed a huge block on the blitzing LB.

Not bashing him on making a play, I spilled my beer after if happened I was so excited...just wasn't a play that would have been the right decision in the NFL, much less have worked out that way it did.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1393
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Default Re: Manziel

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I guess it would of been better IYO if he had just thrown an incomplete pass. Dam him for turning nothing into something.
That's not at all what I got from 290's post. He pointed out 2 very viable options that Manziel had from the git go instead decided to go all circus, hop over a downed lineman, run into another one's butt then run around before getting rid of the ball. That kinda stuff just ain't gonna fly in the Big Boy League.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1394
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Default Re: Manziel

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I guess it would of been better IYO if he had just thrown an incomplete pass. Dam him for turning nothing into something.
That's what you got out of that?
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Old 01-09-2014   #1395
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Default Re: Manziel

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Except it wasn't nothing, he had two guys wide open. Sure if everyone was covered and the pressure was bearing down on him. But he he two guys wide open to his left and plenty of time left in the pocket, his O lineman were holding all their blocks. Cedric was stonewalling number #93 and Malena layed a huge block on the blitzing LB.

Not bashing him on making a play, I spilled my beer after if happened I was so excited...just wasn't a play that would have been the right decision in the NFL, much less have worked out that way it did.
Yeh sorry was just being a smart ass. I understand your point. He does do this too much. I believe it can be controlled so I'm not as worried about it as others. Also I think when the game is on the line having someone that can do make these type of plays is invaluable. Look what Wilson did to us this year. Look at what Kapreneck did last week. If it can be regulated it can be the difference between winning and loosing a close game.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1396
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Default Re: Manziel

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Yeh sorry was just being a smart ass. I understand your point. He does do this too much. I believe it can be controlled so I'm not as worried about it as others. Also I think when the game is on the line having someone that can do make these type of plays is invaluable. Look what Wilson did to us this year. Look at what Kapreneck did last week. If it can be regulated it can be the difference between winning and loosing a close game.
Well the point that you, myself, and others in this thread are trying to make is he has shown some serious improvements from last year to this year, and I can only imagine that when he starts receiving pro coaching he will improve even more. If he can learn to taper down a little bit, stay in the pocket a little more (which anyone that watched any of Johnny Football last year and this year will tell you he has improved markedly on), then that playmaking ability of his becomes a serious benefit for his team. He has to continue learning not to rely on it so much and after this last season, I very much believe he will continue to learn to hang in the pocket longer and only bolt to use his playmaking ability as a last resort.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1397
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Default Re: Manziel

I also love the fact that none of the anti-Manziel crowd have been willing to engage me on my prior post. Manziel's deep ball numbers are astounding and when combined with the fact that his numbers from the pocket are almost identical to his overall numbers, you really start to see that the arguments used against him about "constantly relying on his playmaking abilities" really are grasping at straws. It is what leads myself and others to conclude that people choose to hate on Johnny Football either because they just don't like him and/or don't like Texas A&M.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1398
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by htownfan32 View Post
Almost all the highlights two pages back were from his freshman year. Let's do more recent stuff. The only egregious jump ball was the one during the Alabama game.

I'm not pushing JF, (my drafts indicate I'm very much a Bridgewater guy) but let's be honest with our appraisal of him.





These are examples of plays he's made all year, and it's obvious that he has shown progression from last year's constant scrambling.

Uh-oh. Weren't the Manziel haters claiming that jump balls to Evans made Manziel?
Hitting his receivers on long bombs perfectly in stride, when the receiver had a step on the defender. Surely better than checkdowns all game long like bridgewater.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1399
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Uh-oh. Weren't the Manziel haters claiming that jump balls to Evans made Manziel?
Hitting his receivers on long bombs perfectly in stride, when the receiver had a step on the defender. Surely better than checkdowns all game long like Schaub.
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Old 01-09-2014   #1400
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Originally Posted by Yaky View Post
Uh-oh. Weren't the Manziel haters claiming that jump balls to Evans made Manziel?
Hitting his receivers on long bombs perfectly in stride, when the receiver had a step on the defender. Surely better than checkdowns all game long like Bridgewater.
Manziel threw more screens and passes less than 5 yards then Bridgewater did last season.

But it's draft season so the facts, logic and reason all take a back seat.
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