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Old 01-02-2014   #1221
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by 2012Champs View Post
Can you explain what you mean by this?


Most efficient passer, well what do you mean by this?

VY 444/718 61.8% 8.4 ypa 6040 yards 44 TDs 28 INTS rating 144.9
JM 595/863 68.9% 9.1 ypa 7820 yards 63 tds 22 ints rating 164.1

Better runner, scrambler? What do you mean by that?

VY 457 attempts 3127 yards 6.8 ypa 37 tds
JM 345 attempts 2169 yards 6.3 ypa 30 tds
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Old 01-02-2014   #1222
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
This X 100. The bolded is whyy he is who he is..if you coach him not to do that, you're not gonna get the guy you saw in college.
We'd have to watch a lot of film & talk to Johnny to determine that. He doesn't look like a one read, then run QB to me. If there's a play to be made from the pocket he appears to be able to make them.

He did what he had to do within the system he was in. If our offense were more open... similar to what was done in New England for instance, I have no reason to believe he won't be able to find the open man. If his first read is open. I don't have the ability to determine with what consistency he would be able to find the second & third read, or if his capacity to be able to improve this ability.

We also know he is capable of finding an open man on the move. If he can go through two reads and improve as time goes on, he's going to make someone a really good QB.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying we should draft him. I've never said that. But someone will.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1223
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
We'd have to watch a lot of film & talk to Johnny to determine that. He doesn't look like a one read, then run QB to me. If there's a play to be made from the pocket he appears to be able to make them.

He did what he had to do within the system he was in. If our offense were more open... similar to what was done in New England for instance, I have no reason to believe he won't be able to find the open man. If his first read is open. I don't have the ability to determine with what consistency he would be able to find the second & third read, or if his capacity to be able to improve this ability.

We also know he is capable of finding an open man on the move. If he can go through two reads and improve as time goes on, he's going to make someone a really good QB.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying we should draft him. I've never said that. But someone will.
of course someone will, he's sloted as a potential top 5 pick. But you can tell he's not comfortable sitting in the pocket & being just a passer...He's constantly moving & reacting to even the slightest bit of pressure & never fully sets his base to throw. he bails out the pocket prematurely alot & something i've noticed as of late, he's seemingly got the same syndrome Case has of trying to look for the big play all the time. That in turn causes him to miss windows where he should be hitting underneath stuff &/or just taking the play that's in front of him so as to move the chains.

In college, defenses were afraid to rush him & that allowed for him to really sit back. In the NFL, that won't be the case.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1224
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Do you think that every player in college is drafted or something? Three or four players with first round talent on an offense is OUTSTANDING. Since A&M is so terrible other than Johnny, what team's offense would you surround him with instead? Since Matthews is soooo overrated and his line is a sieve and he's only got one receiving option there must be like a dozen teams that are better right?

Who are they?

Quick cheat sheet for ya:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...m/_/stat/total
Your cheat sheet proves my point. A&M is 46 in total rushing. Take out Manziels rushing yards and they probably don't crack the top 100. What an AWSOME OL. ! And it's two possible first rounders. One skill guy and one OL. The rest of that team is average at best. You put an average QB on that team and they would be lucky to win a game.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1225
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by ubecool454 View Post
Manziel would be smart to enter the draft as a slot receiver. He is a running QB just like Mike Vick and Vick is bigger and faster and tougher. Those NFL linebackers had no problem getting the big hard shots on Vick and knocking him out game after game so what do you think will happen with Manziel? Johhny Football is a great college player but that will stop in the NFL.
You should watch more than YouTube highlights to form your opinions. It makes you look really really stupid.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1226
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
Harrell/Simmons/Cumbie/Kingsbury topped tons of passing categories as well. So did Florence/Petty. The offense gives you that ability. There are some subtle differences between the A&M/Baylor/Tech offenses, but when you drop back to pass 40-50 times every game, you're going to lead the country in plenty of passing categories.

And coaching down his most effective quality is not something I want to hear when drafting a QB. He has improved his pocket passing, but he still bails the pocket early and puts his blockers in tough spots. How many times does he have a clean pocket and he bails out, runs around, and then puts it up to a WR. That just doesn't work in the NFL where the defensive players are just as talented and athletic as you and your teammates.
I am worried about the offense he played in and how he will be able to adapt to a pro style offense. Other than that, I'm not worried about too much. He doesn't get any credit for his pocket passing. His accuracy from the pocket is on par with Bridgewater. That is his his most effective quality. His ability to create plays is special. Because he makes such highlight feel plays when getting out of the pocket people want to label him a mad scrambler. He has thrown more great passes from the pocket than he has made great aye with his legs.

It's funny Bridgewater made a play in his last regular game where he ran around and threw the ball up looking like a bad decision and it ended up a TD. Everyone went nuts and started claiming him as great. Saying that was a great play.

Same type of play Manziel does a couple of times every game. Yet the same people say look that won't work in the NFL.

Manziel is my second choice as of now behind Bridgewater. The only reason he is second is because of the offense Manziel has played in and because of Teddy's superior mechanics. Other than that they are the same player.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1227
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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
I am worried about the offense he played in and how he will be able to adapt to a pro style offense. Other than that, I'm not worried about too much. He doesn't get any credit for his pocket passing. His accuracy from the pocket is on par with Bridgewater. That is his his most effective quality. His ability to create plays is special. Because he makes such highlight feel plays when getting out of the pocket people want to label him a mad scrambler. He has thrown more great passes from the pocket than he has made great aye with his legs.



It's funny Bridgewater made a play in his last regular game where he ran around and threw the ball up looking like a bad decision and it ended up a TD. Everyone went nuts and started claiming him as great. Saying that was a great play.



Same type of play Manziel does a couple of times every game. Yet the same people say look that won't work in the NFL.



Manziel is my second choice as of now behind Bridgewater. The only reason he is second is because of the offense Manziel has played in and because of Teddy's superior mechanics. Other than that they are the same player.

The irrational behavior by the anti-Manziel crowd screams either butt hurt UT fan and/or deflated former VY lover that was so wounded by VY's fall from grace that they are frightened Manziel is heading down the same path.

I still can't see how anyone could watch that A&M-Duke game and not come away overwhelmed by Johnny Football. He willed his team to victory, including on defense. This is the type of player the Texans need desperately.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1228
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Your cheat sheet proves my point. A&M is 46 in total rushing. Take out Manziels rushing yards and they probably don't crack the top 100. What an AWSOME OL. ! And it's two possible first rounders. One skill guy and one OL. The rest of that team is average at best. You put an average QB on that team and they would be lucky to win a game.
A&M was 74th in rushing attempts (and 14th in passing attempts). They were top 20 in yards per rushing attempt. It's not that bad to rank 46th in total rushing yards when you are a pass oriented offense.


I'll ask again -- minus the QB position, what offense would you take over A&M's?
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Old 01-02-2014   #1229
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by gwallaia View Post
Another year, another discussion about QBs and another year of TexansTalk message board slap fights and hurt feelings.
It's like the phases of the moon and the turning of the seasons, beyond anybodies control.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1230
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
A&M was 74th in rushing attempts (and 14th in passing attempts). They were top 20 in yards per rushing attempt. It's not that bad to rank 46th in total rushing yards when you are a pass oriented offense.


I'll ask again -- minus the QB position, what offense would you take over A&M's?
And I'll ask you again. Besides the two guys mentioned, who on that offense is even an above average college player?
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Old 01-02-2014   #1231
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
And I'll ask you again. Besides the two guys mentioned, who on that offense is even an above average college player?
Nice attempt at a dodge. I already complimented Ogbuehi, their RB corps and Walker.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1232
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Nice attempt at a dodge. I already complimented Ogbuehi, their RB corps and Walker.
Add Trey Williams and Malcolm Kennedy to the list as well.

I'm certainly on the side of the Manziel advocates. Yes, being an A&M fan skews my perception a bit, but it isn't a stretch, Aggie fan or not, to consider Johnny Football the most exciting college football player any of us have ever seen.

All that said, it's a bit foolish, IMO, to use Manzeil's teammates as a knock against him. He undoubtedly has a good supporting cast. Are they the best offense in the country without him? Not a chance. Would they be pitiful without him? Doubtful as well.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1233
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
Add Trey Williams and Malcolm Kennedy to the list as well.

I'm certainly on the side of the Manziel advocates. Yes, being an A&M fan skews my perception a bit, but it isn't a stretch, Aggie fan or not, to consider Johnny Football the most exciting college football player any of us have ever seen.

All that said, it's a bit foolish, IMO, to use Manzeil's teammates as a knock against him. He undoubtedly has a good supporting cast. Are they the best offense in the country without him? Not a chance. Would they be pitiful without him? Doubtful as well.
Kennedy was on my list in my earlier post and I was counting Williams as one of the three RB's. I forgot Kennedy this time. Good catch.

I'm not really anti Manziel. I definitely wouldn't take him with the first overall pick, but I do think he has a shot at an exciting career. If I had to pick the guy most likely to have a successful NFL career it would be Matthews, followed by Evans, followed by Manziel. I also don't think that Manziel really fits what O'Brien is looking for in a QB. I could see him looking for more of a pro style guy like Murray or Mettenberger.

I expect A&M to be very potent again next year on offense. Hill is a perfect fit for their scheme, that WR corps may be even better depending on how RSJ recovers, and they've got a ton of young talent on the offensive line. I really think if Sumlin uses their running game more effectively they could be record setting. They bog down too often -- most frustratingly in the red zone -- because he won't establish a running game. Very Kubiakish to me.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1234
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Default Re: Manziel

The CBS NFL Draft Big Board lists the following Aggies on offense:

#5 - Jake Matthews - OT
#12 - Cedric Ogbuehi - OT
#13 - Mike Evans - WR
#20 - Johnny Manziel - QB

So that's 3 first rounders, outside of Johnny Manziel, who are graded as top 15 talents. 2 on the OL.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1235
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Kennedy was on my list in my earlier post and I was counting Williams as one of the three RB's. I forgot Kennedy this time. Good catch.

I'm not really anti Manziel. I definitely wouldn't take him with the first overall pick, but I do think he has a shot at an exciting career. If I had to pick the guy most likely to have a successful NFL career it would be Matthews, followed by Evans, followed by Manziel.

I also don't think that Manziel really fits what O'Brien is looking for in a QB. I could see him looking for more of a pro style guy like Murray or Mettenberger.
I think Mathews will have a good career jus not at LT. He's defiantly not worthy of the top pick. Evans is your typical oversized college WR. Just another mike Williams USC. I expect the same results. Manziel will either be great or will be a bust. IMO if he goes to the right situation he will be great.

As for the rest of the hacks you keep pumping up, we will see how good they really are next year when Manziel isn't carrying them on his back.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1236
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
I think Mathews will have a good career jus not at LT. He's defiantly not worthy of the top pick. Evans is your typical oversized college WR. Just another mike Williams USC. I expect the same results. Manziel will either be great or will be a bust. IMO if he goes to the right situation he will be great.
Given the needs of the Texans and this draft class' strengths I'd take Clowney and then work on offense later. I'd take Matthews over Manziel at #1 because like you said I think he'll have a long career at multiple spots. He's a "safer" pick.

Quote:
As for the rest of the hacks you keep pumping up, we will see how good they really are next year when Manziel isn't carrying them on his back.
I agree with that. Here's what I expect we will see:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
I expect A&M to be very potent again next year on offense. Hill is a perfect fit for their scheme, that WR corps may be even better depending on how RSJ recovers, and they've got a ton of young talent on the offensive line. I really think if Sumlin uses their running game more effectively they could be record setting. They bog down too often -- most frustratingly in the red zone -- because he won't establish a running game. Very Kubiakish to me.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1237
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
You can't argue with UT fans.
Very astute observation.

Vince Young went to tu.
Jonathon Manzeil went to Texas A&M.
Therefore, Vince was better in every way.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1238
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Default Re: Manziel

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of course someone will, he's sloted as a potential top 5 pick. But you can tell he's not comfortable sitting in the pocket & being just a passer...He's constantly moving & reacting to even the slightest bit of pressure & never fully sets his base to throw. he bails out the pocket prematurely alot
Of course he bails a lot, that's why he's potentially a top 5 pick. It's all hype & overrating the guy. Only we, on TT, can properly judge a QB's talent. If not for being uncomfortable in the pocket, which is clear as day, he'd be the clear cut #1 pick... no, he'd be signed 17 days before the draft.
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Old 01-02-2014   #1239
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Of course he bails a lot, that's why he's potentially a top 5 pick. It's all hype & overrating the guy. Only we, on TT, can properly judge a QB's talent. If not for being uncomfortable in the pocket, which is clear as day, he'd be the clear cut #1 pick... no, he'd be signed 17 days before the draft.
We on TT have all the modern technology known to man . I'll leave a picture so you'll know what to get .

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Old 01-02-2014   #1240
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Manziel is my second choice as of now behind Bridgewater. The only reason he is second is because of the offense Manziel has played in and because of Teddy's superior mechanics. Other than that they are the same player.
Agreed, for the same reason. I don't know how close you've got them, but I've got them really close. Which is why I can't take anyone serious who thinks we should take Bridgewater with the #1, but Manziel shouldn't be drafted in the top 10. Or even top 15.

Manziel's play making ability compensates for the lack of a "pro offense" a lot. Then the way nfl offenses are run now anyway, nothing like they ran back in the 90's when coming from a pro offense was important. & with the success of Kaepernick, Wilson, RG3, & Luck because their coaches are willing to make concessions to help their young QB be successful... & the rules protecting the QB & receiver......

Coming from a pro system is still important, just not as important as it used to be.

I'm not arguing that we should draft Manziel.
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