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Old 11-25-2013   #961
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
Again, they played in different offenses. As we talked about earlier in the week, Manziel played in an offense that threw the ball 60% of the time. Robinson played in an offense that threw the ball 40% of the time.
Dude, you have made some okay arguments in this thread, but seriously? Those Michigan teams adopted the offense they did because of the horrific accuracy of Denard Robinson. No, the stats don't tell the whole story, but Manziel is a much better passer.

Robinson passed for an incredible 55% in his Junior year and 53% in his senior season. He also had a 29/24 TD/INT ratio in that same time span. In that same period, Manziel passed at a 68% and 69% clip with a 58/22 TD/INT ration. Once again, stats don't tell the whole story but when they aren't even in the same stratosphere, there is likely an error somewhere within your logic.

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And Manziel was a RS Freshman his first year as a starter. Robinson was a true Sophomore. They were both in their 2nd year in the program.
You can't compare a redshirt year going up against the practice squad to playing against Division I football teams every single week. It's a whole different environment and is nearly the equivalent of going from high school to college. Weak stuff man.

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RG3 was more of a natural passer when he came out as opposed to Manziel at this point in his career.

he's also taller & bigger....mechanics & footwork are also better & his arm is also stronger than Manziel's imo.
Just can't say I agree. RGIII had better poise in the pocket, but Manziel has some of the best instincts of any player you will ever see. RG3 might have marginally better arm strength, but Manziel can fling it. He throws the deep ball effortlessly and can hum it in there to the small space as well as anybody. His main drawbacks are a desire to break out of the pocket too much, which makes him sometimes look uncomfortable in the pocket, and poor decision making. He has a gunslinger mentality and as such, he makes quite a few mistakes.

When he goes against defenses that can take away his scrambling ability and can't get in a rhythm early, he can be exposed. We all watched some of that in the LSU game. The performance does not deserve any excuses, but he has been playing with a sore shoulder (hopefully rest is all he needs to recover) sustained in the Auburn game as well as a hurt throwing hand from hitting a lineman in the helmet in practice.

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Even with all that as an advantage, RG3 is still struggling as a passer in the NFL right now.

we can argue as to why, but he's still struggling.
All the above said, this is why I wouldn't take Manziel in the top 20 of the NFL Draft. The struggles of RG3 are due in my opinion to Defensive Coordinators catching up with him as well as the speed of the NFL. Manziel's inability to handle the speed LSU has thrown at him this year and last year concern me.

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Honestly, I'm Undecided. I have to admit the possibility of trading back with someone like Cleveland who has been stock piling draft picks and may be willing to pay Kings ransom (what Wash gave STL for RGIII) to move up, I find very intriguing. This is what I find most interesting today (subject to change).

For a decision today, I like trading back, taking an OT, a QB and Aaron Donald in rd 2.
Unless we get the first pick (and even then I would probably consider it), I'm with you. I'd love a deal with Cleveland for their first and second. Maybe, just maybe, Manziel falls to the second, and we could grab him there after picking a dominant OT in the first. I could easily get behind something like that.

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Yes it was me and this has already been much discussed. A review of this thread would be helpful. Teddy is 6'3" and weighs 205, ESPN has him listed at 196. Manziel at 6'0" and weighs 212. In retrospect Manziel appearance wise has broader steadier looking shoulders, Bridgewater appears thin with narrow shoulders. If your looking for argument there are plenty who will agree with you because they simply do not like Manziel. My observation of Bridgewater however is without bias and completely open minded. Trust me, with the Texans looking at the #1 pick I would hope Teddy would be the next coming of Andrew Luck or RGIII but I don't see it, I see a Geno Smith, maybe. Manziel is a closer comparison to RGIII. Very similar in there hype, production except RGIII has a good guy image and Manziel not so much.
I don't know man. I'm not a huge Bridgewater fan or anything, but I don't know how you could watch the Sugar Bowl last year and not be impressed. I'd agree with some other posters. I think you are holding the lack of talent he is playing against a little too much. He has proven he can play. He isn't Andrew Luck, but I don't think he is Geno Smith either. That's ALMOST the equivalent of Johnny Manziel to Denard Robinson...
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Old 11-25-2013   #962
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
I don't know man. I'm not a huge Bridgewater fan or anything, but I don't know how you could watch the Sugar Bowl last year and not be impressed. I'd agree with some other posters. I think you are holding the lack of talent he is playing against a little too much. He has proven he can play. He isn't Andrew Luck, but I don't think he is Geno Smith either. That's ALMOST the equivalent of Johnny Manziel to Denard Robinson...
For me, Geno Smith is meant as no disrespect. I watched Geno light it up numerous times. Geno was quite good and proficient at coming from behind and leading some GW drives. I don't think I will ever forget the Baylor game and he spanked Texas pretty good. Is Geno Andrew or RGIII? No! And neither is Teddy. I haven't seen Teddy do a lot of what Geno could do, but to be fair, Teddy didn't have Austin and Stedman. I do hope the Texans have the #1 pick and someone wants to pay a Washington ransom to move up to get him. Especially if Bortles declares for this draft.
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Old 11-25-2013   #963
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Default Re: Manziel

Dude, you have made some okay arguments in this thread, but seriously? Those Michigan teams adopted the offense they did because of the horrific accuracy of Denard Robinson. No, the stats don't tell the whole story, but Manziel is a much better passer.

Robinson passed for an incredible 55% in his Junior year and 53% in his senior season. He also had a 29/24 TD/INT ratio in that same time span. In that same period, Manziel passed at a 68% and 69% clip with a 58/22 TD/INT ration. Once again, stats don't tell the whole story but when they aren't even in the same stratosphere, there is likely an error somewhere within your logic.


It was never my intention to compare their passing. Tex made a comment on how Manziel reminded him of Denard. Texian stated that if that was the case then he would have thrown for 4,000 yards and been a Heisman candidate. I was merely pointing out that he played in a run-first offense that was never going to throw for 4,000 yards and that he, in fact, was in the Heisman discussion.

Never compared their passing ability. It's pretty obvious to anyone who has seen the pair play that Manziel is the superior passer. Also, there's a reason why Denard is a RB in the NFL and not a QB.

You can't compare a redshirt year going up against the practice squad to playing against Division I football teams every single week. It's a whole different environment and is nearly the equivalent of going from high school to college. Weak stuff man.

Was only pointing out that both guys were first year starters in their second year. Denard was a backup his freshman year and really only came in to run the ball. Does he still have an advantage over a first year player? Yes. But I was just pointing out that despite the difference in class rank, both were second year players and first year starters.
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Old 11-26-2013   #964
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
Dude, you have made some okay arguments in this thread, but seriously? Those Michigan teams adopted the offense they did because of the horrific accuracy of Denard Robinson. No, the stats don't tell the whole story, but Manziel is a much better passer.

Robinson passed for an incredible 55% in his Junior year and 53% in his senior season. He also had a 29/24 TD/INT ratio in that same time span. In that same period, Manziel passed at a 68% and 69% clip with a 58/22 TD/INT ration. Once again, stats don't tell the whole story but when they aren't even in the same stratosphere, there is likely an error somewhere within your logic.



You can't compare a redshirt year going up against the practice squad to playing against Division I football teams every single week. It's a whole different environment and is nearly the equivalent of going from high school to college. Weak stuff man.



Just can't say I agree. RGIII had better poise in the pocket, but Manziel has some of the best instincts of any player you will ever see. RG3 might have marginally better arm strength, but Manziel can fling it. He throws the deep ball effortlessly and can hum it in there to the small space as well as anybody. His main drawbacks are a desire to break out of the pocket too much, which makes him sometimes look uncomfortable in the pocket, and poor decision making. He has a gunslinger mentality and as such, he makes quite a few mistakes.

When he goes against defenses that can take away his scrambling ability and can't get in a rhythm early, he can be exposed. We all watched some of that in the LSU game. The performance does not deserve any excuses, but he has been playing with a sore shoulder (hopefully rest is all he needs to recover) sustained in the Auburn game as well as a hurt throwing hand from hitting a lineman in the helmet in practice.



All the above said, this is why I wouldn't take Manziel in the top 20 of the NFL Draft. The struggles of RG3 are due in my opinion to Defensive Coordinators catching up with him as well as the speed of the NFL. Manziel's inability to handle the speed LSU has thrown at him this year and last year concern me.



Unless we get the first pick (and even then I would probably consider it), I'm with you. I'd love a deal with Cleveland for their first and second. Maybe, just maybe, Manziel falls to the second, and we could grab him there after picking a dominant OT in the first. I could easily get behind something like that.



I don't know man. I'm not a huge Bridgewater fan or anything, but I don't know how you could watch the Sugar Bowl last year and not be impressed. I'd agree with some other posters. I think you are holding the lack of talent he is playing against a little too much. He has proven he can play. He isn't Andrew Luck, but I don't think he is Geno Smith either. That's ALMOST the equivalent of Johnny Manziel to Denard Robinson...

he doesn't throw the deep ball effortlessly & he doesn't throw on a rope more than 15-20 yards effortlessly either..He has to load up to throw it deep (This kinda goes hand in hand with what Rey was talking about earlier in this thread when he said he looks like he aims the ball at times) and he torques off of his body way too hard on most of his throws on a rope rather than firmly planting & driving the ball in there with his arm...That front leg is locked out...Sometimes you get caught having to throw it like that, but when guys are doing it all the time like he does, It's a classic tell for when guys are overcompensating for height and or arm strength...in his case i think it's a little of both.

You didn't see the above with RG3 and you don't see it with any of the other prospects as much as you see it with him...b/c they have the arm strength & can use that alone to drive it in there if they have to.
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Old 11-26-2013   #965
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
Dude, you have made some okay arguments in this thread, but seriously? Those Michigan teams adopted the offense they did because of the horrific accuracy of Denard Robinson. No, the stats don't tell the whole story, but Manziel is a much better passer.

Robinson passed for an incredible 55% in his Junior year and 53% in his senior season. He also had a 29/24 TD/INT ratio in that same time span. In that same period, Manziel passed at a 68% and 69% clip with a 58/22 TD/INT ration. Once again, stats don't tell the whole story but when they aren't even in the same stratosphere, there is likely an error somewhere within your logic.



You can't compare a redshirt year going up against the practice squad to playing against Division I football teams every single week. It's a whole different environment and is nearly the equivalent of going from high school to college. Weak stuff man.



Just can't say I agree. RGIII had better poise in the pocket, but Manziel has some of the best instincts of any player you will ever see. RG3 might have marginally better arm strength, but Manziel can fling it. He throws the deep ball effortlessly and can hum it in there to the small space as well as anybody. His main drawbacks are a desire to break out of the pocket too much, which makes him sometimes look uncomfortable in the pocket, and poor decision making. He has a gunslinger mentality and as such, he makes quite a few mistakes.

When he goes against defenses that can take away his scrambling ability and can't get in a rhythm early, he can be exposed. We all watched some of that in the LSU game. The performance does not deserve any excuses, but he has been playing with a sore shoulder (hopefully rest is all he needs to recover) sustained in the Auburn game as well as a hurt throwing hand from hitting a lineman in the helmet in practice.



All the above said, this is why I wouldn't take Manziel in the top 20 of the NFL Draft. The struggles of RG3 are due in my opinion to Defensive Coordinators catching up with him as well as the speed of the NFL. Manziel's inability to handle the speed LSU has thrown at him this year and last year concern me.



Unless we get the first pick (and even then I would probably consider it), I'm with you. I'd love a deal with Cleveland for their first and second. Maybe, just maybe, Manziel falls to the second, and we could grab him there after picking a dominant OT in the first. I could easily get behind something like that.



I don't know man. I'm not a huge Bridgewater fan or anything, but I don't know how you could watch the Sugar Bowl last year and not be impressed. I'd agree with some other posters. I think you are holding the lack of talent he is playing against a little too much. He has proven he can play. He isn't Andrew Luck, but I don't think he is Geno Smith either. That's ALMOST the equivalent of Johnny Manziel to Denard Robinson...
Manziel does not "hum it" Denard Robinson (since he was brought up) showed more arm strength on his one pass against the Texans than Manziel ever has.
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Old 11-26-2013   #966
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Default Re: Manziel

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Let me take a guess here though... I'm dealing with another A&M fan ain't I? Go figure.


I watch them from time to time but no more than any other program so you would be incorrect.
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Old 11-26-2013   #967
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I watch them from time to time but no more than any other program so you would be incorrect.
lol, right..
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Old 11-26-2013   #968
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lol, right..


You would have no evidence to suggest anything other than I have said.
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Old 11-26-2013   #969
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
It was never my intention to compare their passing. Tex made a comment on how Manziel reminded him of Denard. Texian stated that if that was the case then he would have thrown for 4,000 yards and been a Heisman candidate. I was merely pointing out that he played in a run-first offense that was never going to throw for 4,000 yards and that he, in fact, was in the Heisman discussion.

Never compared their passing ability. It's pretty obvious to anyone who has seen the pair play that Manziel is the superior passer. Also, there's a reason why Denard is a RB in the NFL and not a QB.
Fair enough. Look, I enjoyed watching Denard Robinson as much as almost anybody. The guys was a blast to watch and was a threat to take it to the house at any moment. But Johnny Manziel is one of the greatest college QBs of all time. There simply is not much of an argument you can make against that. Sadly, he has been surrounded by one of the worst statistical defenses for a top 25 team in college football history.

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Was only pointing out that both guys were first year starters in their second year. Denard was a backup his freshman year and really only came in to run the ball. Does he still have an advantage over a first year player? Yes. But I was just pointing out that despite the difference in class rank, both were second year players and first year starters.
I just don't think that is even a statement worth making. The difference between practice and game speed is night and day. I had forgotten Denard was a backup, so that does make the comparison a little more viable. Fact still remains you simply can't compare a redshirt year to an actual season in which you are going up against actual NCAA Div I talent in game speed. It's an entirely different world.

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he doesn't throw the deep ball effortlessly & he doesn't throw on a rope more than 15-20 yards effortlessly either..He has to load up to throw it deep (This kinda goes hand in hand with what Rey was talking about earlier in this thread when he said he looks like he aims the ball at times) and he torques off of his body way too hard on most of his throws on a rope rather than firmly planting & driving the ball in there with his arm...That front leg is locked out...Sometimes you get caught having to throw it like that, but when guys are doing it all the time like he does, It's a classic tell for when guys are overcompensating for height and or arm strength...in his case i think it's a little of both.
I just don't see it. I'd agree he has been torquing off his body since the Auburn game (and the shoulder injury) but early in the season, Johnny was launching the football. Like I have said before in this thread, stats don't tell the whole story, but Johnny is 4th in YPA surrounded by guys with "cannon" arms like Jameis Winston, Zach Mettenberger, and Marcus Marriota. I can't find the stat listed anywhere, but I'd also be willing to bet he is one of the leaders in pass plays of 20+ yds too.

His arm strength improved dramatically from last season to this season. Sadly, he injured his throwing shoulder and thus for a good portion of the season, he hasn't been throwing at full strength. Even still, arm strength is one of those traits that unless it is out of this world good or unbelievably bad it is extremely difficult to accurately judge. But all the noodle arm BS people like to throw out there is just asinine. Like I said before, he won't be mistaken for Elway or Jeff George, but he also isn't a weak armed QB like Matt Schaub or Chad Pennington.

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Manziel does not "hum it" Denard Robinson (since he was brought up) showed more arm strength on his one pass against the Texans than Manziel ever has.
I think everyone already knows what your "unbiased" opinion is on this matter.
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Old 11-26-2013   #970
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Default Re: Manziel

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I think everyone already knows what your "unbiased" opinion is on this matter.
I am unbiased on this matter.. So I really don't know why you felt the need to put "unbiased" in quotes.. It's not like I don't want other A&M players, I'd be open to taking Mathews with the 1st pick. You're the one who is is "biased" here.
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Old 11-26-2013   #971
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Default Re: Manziel

Fair enough. Look, I enjoyed watching Denard Robinson as much as almost anybody. The guys was a blast to watch and was a threat to take it to the house at any moment. But Johnny Manziel is one of the greatest college QBs of all time. There simply is not much of an argument you can make against that. Sadly, he has been surrounded by one of the worst statistical defenses for a top 25 team in college football history.

I've never said Manziel wasn't a fantastic college player. He absolutely is. I never made the Denard comparison and I don't really think it's a valid one. My only point in that post was to correct Texian on a few points on Robinson. It actually had little to do with Manziel to be honest.

Ironically though, on your point about Manziel and the A&M defense. Robinson had the worst defense in school history behind him in that sophomore campaign.


I just don't think that is even a statement worth making. The difference between practice and game speed is night and day. I had forgotten Denard was a backup, so that does make the comparison a little more viable. Fact still remains you simply can't compare a redshirt year to an actual season in which you are going up against actual NCAA Div I talent in game speed. It's an entirely different world.

Very true point. I was just trying to point out that Robinson was in his first year as a starter. Many people forget that he barely played as a freshman and that Tate Forcier was the starter all season.
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Old 11-26-2013   #972
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Default Re: Manziel

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What, no comment on the advantage Teddy?
You make a solid point about it being Manziel's 1st start and Bridgewater having 20+ under his belt at that point. Poor comparison by me. But you completely dodged the question and we both know it.

Bridgewater vs. #3 Florida with 20+ starts under his belt. He has Alex Kupper and Jamon Brown protecting him. Devante Parker is his #1 receiving option.

Manziel vs. #22 LSU with 20+ starts under his belt. He has Jake Matthews and Cedric Ogbuehi protecting him. Mike Evans is his #1 receiving option.

Who has the advantage?
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Old 11-26-2013   #973
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Default Re: Manziel

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Fair enough. Look, I enjoyed watching Denard Robinson as much as almost anybody. The guys was a blast to watch and was a threat to take it to the house at any moment. But Johnny Manziel is one of the greatest college QBs of all time. There simply is not much of an argument you can make against that. Sadly, he has been surrounded by one of the worst statistical defenses for a top 25 team in college football history.



I just don't think that is even a statement worth making. The difference between practice and game speed is night and day. I had forgotten Denard was a backup, so that does make the comparison a little more viable. Fact still remains you simply can't compare a redshirt year to an actual season in which you are going up against actual NCAA Div I talent in game speed. It's an entirely different world.



I just don't see it. I'd agree he has been torquing off his body since the Auburn game (and the shoulder injury) but early in the season, Johnny was launching the football. Like I have said before in this thread, stats don't tell the whole story, but Johnny is 4th in YPA surrounded by guys with "cannon" arms like Jameis Winston, Zach Mettenberger, and Marcus Marriota. I can't find the stat listed anywhere, but I'd also be willing to bet he is one of the leaders in pass plays of 20+ yds too.

His arm strength improved dramatically from last season to this season. Sadly, he injured his throwing shoulder and thus for a good portion of the season, he hasn't been throwing at full strength. Even still, arm strength is one of those traits that unless it is out of this world good or unbelievably bad it is extremely difficult to accurately judge. But all the noodle arm BS people like to throw out there is just asinine. Like I said before, he won't be mistaken for Elway or Jeff George, but he also isn't a weak armed QB like Matt Schaub or Chad Pennington.



I think everyone already knows what your "unbiased" opinion is on this matter.
He's been doing this all year...well before the auburn game and his hurt shoulder. go back & look at that bama game this year. nearly every throw he made in that game he was locking out that front leg and torquing hard.

he's 4th in YPA...he can thank Mike Evans for that.

it's cool, we can agree to disagree.
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Old 11-26-2013   #974
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He's been doing this all year...well before the auburn game and his hurt shoulder. go back & look at that bama game this year. nearly every throw he made in that game he was locking out that front leg and torquing hard.

he's 4th in YPA...he can thank Mike Evans for that.

it's cool, we can agree to disagree.
You mean the bama game where he threw for over 400 yards and put up over 40 points on one of the top defenses in the country?

Seriously it's all Evans?

Also you have said more than once that there are many scouts that point out his deficiencies and don't think his game will translate to the NFL who are these scouts you speak of? Links?
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Old 11-26-2013   #975
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You mean the bama game where he threw for over 400 yards and put up over 40 points on one of the top defenses in the country?

Seriously it's all Evans?

Also you have said more than once that there are many scouts that point out his deficiencies and don't think his game will translate to the NFL who are these scouts you speak of? Links?
I think JF's stock will suffer with RG3 not progressing . The bottom line is they employ folks to run the ball so the QB better be able to throw and throw on time with accuracy . RG3 better learn to stop taking hits or he might have two seasons left .
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Old 11-26-2013   #976
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I think JF's stock will suffer with RG3 not progressing . The bottom line is they employ folks to run the ball so the QB better be able to throw and throw on time with accuracy . RG3 better learn to stop taking hits or he might have two seasons left .
Actually I think Wilson playing well offsets that. He's more like Wilson than RG3.
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Old 11-26-2013   #977
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Just curious if scouts already know what his actual height, weight, strength numbers will be pre-Combine?

Anyone here dare guess?
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Old 11-26-2013   #978
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You mean the bama game where he threw for over 400 yards and put up over 40 points on one of the top defenses in the country?

Seriously it's all Evans?

Also you have said more than once that there are many scouts that point out his deficiencies and don't think his game will translate to the NFL who are these scouts you speak of? Links?
Get it right slick...i said:

"pro scouts are mixed on him as well for alot of the same reasons."

and ask and you shall recieve.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/n...nfl-scouts-too

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...to-nfl-success

Even in the stories slanted towards him there is no universal agreement about him.

NFL rules prohibit team employees from talking about underclassmen before they declare for the draft, but seven scouts from various teams agreed to discuss Manziel anonymously. Four called him a first-round pick, with one believing “he will go in the top 10.”

“I think Johnny Manziel is that good,” the scout said. “I think the guy is unique, and guys like Russell Wilson have paved the way for him.”

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/09...#storylink=cpy

That's a great story clearly in his favor, but you gotta wonder how those other 3 scouts they polled feel about him if they don't think he's a 1st round talent.

But this is nothing new for draft prospects.....qb's in particular. There are always going to be scouts who like guys and other scouts who don't......for whatever reason. Why try to act like this is all brand new & he's somehow immune to this?
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Old 11-26-2013   #979
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Actually I think Wilson playing well offsets that. He's more like Wilson than RG3.
You think the Redskins would like to go back and have all them picks back and Russell Wilson over RG3 . It's nothing against RG3 but he can never live up to the ransom the Skins paid for him .

If Wilson is good comparison for JF , teams will be shy to use a high #1 on him and he'll fall to a team that has a support system in place ... like Wilson .
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Old 11-26-2013   #980
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Default Re: Manziel

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You think the Redskins would like to go back and have all them picks back and Russell Wilson over RG3 . It's nothing against RG3 but he can never live up to the ransom the Skins paid for him .

If Wilson is good comparison for JF , teams will be shy to use a high #1 on him and he'll fall to a team that has a support system in place ... like Wilson .
that'd be the best thing for him honestly...
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