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Old 05-06-2014   #3581
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Default Re: Manziel

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No, I didn't see that? Is there some website I can see it on?

You do make some good points there.
Nevermind, I did a search.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3582
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Default Re: Manziel

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and that is my point without beating you over the head. If you love and like him what does it matter where you draft him if you think he can play the position? Now if you can get him later..that is why Dallas took so much heat over selecting Frederick even with a trade down they prob could have had him at least a round later.
Draft position, pure and simple. I don't love him enough to pick him at 1.1, but I like him enough to pick him later than that. I'd be good at 1.6, if the Atlanta deal goes through.

I want the sure-fire pick at 1.1, especially if it's a position of need. IF is a damned big word in any draft. IF you can guarantee that Manziel will be a quality starter for the next 10-15 years, then I'm cool. Of course you can't, so I'm not.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3583
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Default Re: Manziel

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I was a HUGE fan of Russell until I noticed the dude couldn't read a defense to save his life. His WR had to have 2 yds of separation before he was "open". 2 feet or less is considered open in the NFL.

I don't know that you can coach reading a defense or seeing the open WR. Either the game slows down for you and you get it or it doesn't.
The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL..........before coaching.



The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL.........after coaching.

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Old 05-06-2014   #3584
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Default Re: Manziel

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Draft position, pure and simple. I don't love him enough to pick him at 1.1, but I like him enough to pick him later than that. I'd be good at 1.6, if the Atlanta deal goes through.

I want the sure-fire pick at 1.1, especially if it's a position of need. IF is a damned big word in any draft. IF you can guarantee that Manziel will be a quality starter for the next 10-15 years, then I'm cool. Of course you can't, so I'm not.
Since you can't guarantee any player for 10-15 you therefor cannot pick anyone 1.1. I want him 1.6 also as we get other picks and he could be there if I am wrong that Browns want him. I can see Jags going Bortles & Cleveland Watkins hoping they can get QB 26 or in second. Thanks for discussion.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3585
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Default Re: Manziel

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The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL..........before coaching.



The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL.........after coaching.

So you are either unaware of following info or just choose to ignore?

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To do that, I’ve hand charted every one of Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr, Johnny Manziel, and Blake Bortles’ attempts this year on everything from pass distance to throws against the blitz. The data here can’t render an opinion for you, but it can provide an effective complement to your knowledge on a prospect.

Where Did They Throw the Ball?

The ‘zones’ in the chart represent where the QB threw the ball on the field, that is exactly the spot the receiver caught the ball. This is to make sure yards after the catch don’t influence our opinion on the QBs.

Targets
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...out-of-the-box

This info was posted on another thread. Manziel 20+ yards 18.69 4% better than next highest of TB, Bortles, Carr and "avg QB" .
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Old 05-06-2014   #3586
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Default Re: Manziel

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So you are either unaware of following info or just choose to ignore?

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...out-of-the-box

This info was posted on another thread. Manziel 20+ yards 18.69 4% better than next highest of TB, Bortles, Carr and "avg QB" .
Many of those after more than 5 seconds to throw the ball.......not in the NFL.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3587
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Many of those after more than 5 seconds to throw the ball.......not in the NFL.
He will not need 5 seconds in NFL. As someone else stated (maybe in another thread) that Manziel had to score every series due to his defense and took more on his shoulders to do so. It is good that he could accept that challenge but should not be required on Texans. Plus a lot of those five second plays were due to his offense breaking down and even scrambling which eats up clock he was very accurate. If you want him to remain in a pocket, give him a pocket to remain in.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3588
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL..........before coaching.



The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL.........after coaching.

Not necessarily on that bandwagon, but nice analogy!! And I can see where it comes from.

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Since you can't guarantee any player for 10-15 you therefor cannot pick anyone 1.1. I want him 1.6 also as we get other picks and he could be there if I am wrong that Browns want him. I can see Jags going Bortles & Cleveland Watkins hoping they can get QB 26 or in second. Thanks for discussion.
What? You're Manzealot crush is obvious. I wish I had your faith.

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Many of those after more than 5 seconds to throw the ball.......not in the NFL.
You ain't never lyin'.

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
He will not need 5 seconds in NFL. As someone else stated (maybe in another thread) that Manziel had to score every series due to his defense and took more on his shoulders to do so. It is good that he could accept that challenge but should not be required on Texans. Plus a lot of those five second plays were due to his offense breaking down and even scrambling which eats up clock he was very accurate. If you want him to remain in a pocket, give him a pocket to remain in.
Based on college coverage. That DOES NOT translate to the NFL. How many highly touted, great college QB's and subsequent NFL flops does it take to understand this? EVERY starter in the NFL is as good as or better than the best college player. Why else do you think so many college greats fall flat on their face when in the NFL? You just don't know and neither do any of the 32 teams front offices. It's a crap shoot and you do what you can to get the odds in your favor.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3589
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Default Re: Manziel

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I agree with that. I might take him as early as 1.06. Maybe.

The thing is, I listened to Zierlien earlier today (recorded on the Net, don't know if it was live TODAY) talking about what a shocker it is to watch Manziel miss open receiver after open receiver when watching him on the All 22. He doesn't see them. Hopefully, that is coachable. If not, it's a killer...

Can't help thinking about how some of us did the same thing while scrutinizing Schaub during this last season. If he didn't see an open receiver, we were all over it and ticked about it, but Manziel is apparently a real problem in that regard. Seems to be his main weakness.

BTW, Zierlein is still a Manziel fan, regardless.
Some of us have been saying this for months and were crucified when it was originally brought up. I'm glad some big names in the media are coming around on this one.

I admit that there is a lot to like about Manziel (he is my #3 QB). But every time I watch him it kills me because I see this far too often. He'll have a guy wide open for 2-3 seconds and just starts running around trying to buy time for no reason. That won't fly in the NFL.

And I don't buy the "trying to score every possession" argument. If he needs to score on this possession then why is he ignoring a wide open 15 yard crossing route on 2nd and 10?

He is either trying to score on every play or he just flat out doesn't see guys. I'm going with the latter based on what I've seen.

As I've said before, I wouldn't be surprised to see Manziel have some NFL success. But I think people are going to be very surprised by how many turnovers he creates early in his career.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3590
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Default Re: Manziel

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He will not need 5 seconds in NFL.
He didn't need it in college much either. But that didn't stop him from waiting way longer than that far too frequently.

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As someone else stated (maybe in another thread) that Manziel had to score every series due to his defense and took more on his shoulders to do so. It is good that he could accept that challenge but should not be required on Texans.
Don't buy this argument at all. It just reads like an excuse.

Quote:
Plus a lot of those five second plays were due to his offense breaking down and even scrambling which eats up clock he was very accurate. If you want him to remain in a pocket, give him a pocket to remain in.
His offense breaks down because he doesn't play within it. He had one of the best (probably the best) pass blocking lines in the entire country. They gave him huge amounts of time to scan the field and get rid of the ball. And he waits until the very last moment far too often. He is also spooked by phantom pressure more than any other guy I've ever scouted.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3591
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Default Re: Manziel

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He didn't need it in college much either. But that didn't stop him from waiting way longer than that far too frequently.



Don't buy this argument at all. It just reads like an excuse.



His offense breaks down because he doesn't play within it. He had one of the best (probably the best) pass blocking lines in the entire country. They gave him huge amounts of time to scan the field and get rid of the ball. And he waits until the very last moment far too often. He is also spooked by phantom pressure more than any other guy I've ever scouted.
MSR. Good post.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3592
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Default Re: Manziel

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Not necessarily on that bandwagon, but nice analogy!! And I can see where it comes from.

What? You're Manzealot crush is obvious. I wish I had your faith.

You ain't never lyin'.

Based on college coverage. That DOES NOT translate to the NFL. How many highly touted, great college QB's and subsequent NFL flops does it take to understand this? EVERY starter in the NFL is as good as or better than the best college player. Why else do you think so many college greats fall flat on their face when in the NFL? You just don't know and neither do any of the 32 teams front offices. It's a crap shoot and you do what you can to get the odds in your favor.
You do not know my history on Manziel evidently. I liked him but did not think he could translate to NFL but intensive research and no favorites led me to accept him as best QB. Why is that a mancrush? I've tried to support every comment with research. Coverage? A&M played some very good teams and if your criticize JM same must be applied to other players at all positions.

Bolded: you think Luck was worse in 2011 than Grossman or Vick or Kerry Collins?
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Old 05-06-2014   #3593
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Default Re: Manziel

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Some of us have been saying this for months and were crucified when it was originally brought up. I'm glad some big names in the media are coming around on this one.

I admit that there is a lot to like about Manziel (he is my #3 QB). But every time I watch him it kills me because I see this far too often. He'll have a guy wide open for 2-3 seconds and just starts running around trying to buy time for no reason. That won't fly in the NFL.

And I don't buy the "trying to score every possession" argument. If he needs to score on this possession then why is he ignoring a wide open 15 yard crossing route on 2nd and 10?

He is either trying to score on every play or he just flat out doesn't see guys. I'm going with the latter based on what I've seen.

As I've said before, I wouldn't be surprised to see Manziel have some NFL success. But I think people are going to be very surprised by how many turnovers he creates early in his career.
I agree and he has admitted he should have gone to these higher percentage passes but several I saw, he was trying to score or go for more yardage. He does need to protect ball more but so did Foster.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3594
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You do not know my history on Manziel evidently. I liked him but did not think he could translate to NFL but intensive research and no favorites led me to accept him as best QB. Why is that a mancrush? I've tried to support every comment with research. Coverage? A&M played some very good teams and if your criticize JM same must be applied to other players at all positions.

Bolded: you think Luck was worse in 2011 than Grossman or Vick or Kerry Collins?
As of draft day 2012, yes I did. I'm still not sold on Luck.

No, I don't know your history on Manziel. Haven't been on the boards as much as in years past. If I'm way off base, I apologize.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3595
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Default Re: Manziel

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He didn't need it in college much either. But that didn't stop him from waiting way longer than that far too frequently.
trying to make better play and admitted he should havedone differently often


Don't buy this argument at all. It just reads like an excuse. excuse can be true & a reason



His offense breaks down because he doesn't play within it. He had one of the best (probably the best) pass blocking lines in the entire country. They gave him huge amounts of time to scan the field and get rid of the ball. And he waits until the very last moment far too often. He is also spooked by phantom pressure more than any other guy I've ever scouted.
answers above. I thought McAaron had the best Oline? I have said he needs to improve but so does every other player. JM did do better in 2013.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3596
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As of draft day 2012, yes I did. I'm still not sold on Luck.

No, I don't know your history on Manziel. Haven't been on the boards as much as in years past. If I'm way off base, I apologize.
No apology needed. Al I can say about your view on Luck is wow.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3597
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No apology needed. Al I can say about your view on Luck is wow.
LOL...the dude has been...lucky. I don't see him as being the next Manning or Montana. I see him as good, not great. Not much wow there, imo.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3598
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LOL...the dude has been...lucky. I don't see him as being the next Manning or Montana. I see him as good, not great. Not much wow there, imo.
I hope you're right. You're the first I've seen saying that.
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Old 05-06-2014   #3599
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I hope you're right. You're the first I've seen saying that.
I hope I'm right, too. Otherwise we need to take Clowney at 1.1 and trade up to 1.2 and take Mack or Barr. LOL
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Old 05-06-2014   #3600
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Is that a Ballchinian?
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