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Old 04-25-2014   #3441
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
What is scary about Tebow's leadership? That was the only plus/elite quality about him. I hope every QB that played for my team could at least have half the leadership qualities that Tebow had.. The problem with him was he just couldn't throw the ball.. But he had everything you wanted as far as being a leader goes.
You misunderstand.

I have no issue with either player's leadership. I just want to caution people that it is dangerous to project a prospect based on his intangible abilities.

Tebow and Young both had all three of those characteristics in college. They were drafted too high because of it, and they were busts because neither players' skills translated to the NFL.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3442
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
I understand why you guys think this is so much like 2006 but when you make statements like the bold, it kind of makes your comparison a bit stupid to be honest.
You are certainly free to think so, but I'm not sure you even understand the point I'm making.

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And by the way, I don't see a ton of Aggie fans coming out saying they are going to quit rooting for the Texans if they don't take him. If you'll remember, over half of Reliant Stadium was wearing Vince gear when he came to play the Texans that first time, but I don't hear a lot of posters on here saying that. And in fact, the two that have indicated recently that they WOULD root for him wherever he went (myself and agproducer) BOTH made the statement that we would root for him EXCEPT if he went to Tennessee.

You see, there is nothing that can ever be compared to the Vince situation. Watching the entire stadium erupt when Vince Young scrambled for that touchdown to win the game while playing for OUR FORMER TEAM was one of the most painful things to ever witness as a Texans fan. Had it been nearly any other team in the NFL, it wouldn't have hurt quite so much. But he did it for our bitter rival, Bud's Butt Boys, the Tennessee Titans.
I never insinuated anything of the sort so I'm not sure where this rant is coming from.

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Continue to compare this to the VY deal if you want to, but I think you are dead wrong. Not to mention, is it always bad to root for the local guy? Think if Earl Campbell came out in this day and age. Would it be just like 2006 if everyone wanted the local guy that can tote the rock?

There has been more than enough level-headed talk in this thread. Calling it just like 2006 is just lazy.
We seem to be on different pages. I never said anything about this being like 2006. Did you read my post?

I'm talking about projecting QBs to the next level based on their intangibles instead of based on their tangible ability.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3443
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by agproducer View Post
Unlike TK, I want the Texans to take 1.1 because I don't think he will be there after Jax or Cle. I think if you like him, you take him.

I'm not sold on Bortles. I'd be satisfied with TB later in the first. I question the competition they've played.

If the Texans took Clowney, then traded him for picks, that could work too. But, I think JFF is the way to go.
I'm sold on Johnny at 1.1 as well. Funny because if you asked me this on Superbowl Sunday, I'd have said you're nuts if you think Johnny is 1.1 material. I think he will make it past Jacksonville. Their GM comes from a background that seems to favor your more traditional pocket passers. Plus Caldwell and their current coach, Gus Bradley, are very much high character guys. As much as people believe Khan will kick down the door and tell them to draft Manziel, I don't see it happening. Caldwell seems like the type of dude who told Khan "I'll be your general manager, but I'm not drafting Manziel." Khan still hired him.

The Browns scare me. Kyle Shanahan really had a lot of success with RGIII and I bet he will try to recreate that with Manziel. And while Khan might be willing to take a backseat to his staff, I doubt Jimmy Haslam gives a damn what anyone says. It's no secret how unstable that organization is. If Haslam wants Manziel, he's going to get Manziel. And I fear he wants Manziel...
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Old 04-25-2014   #3444
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by BetaV1 View Post
I'm sold on Johnny at 1.1 as well. Funny because if you asked me this on Superbowl Sunday, I'd have said you're nuts if you think Johnny is 1.1 material. I think he will make it past Jacksonville. Their GM comes from a background that seems to favor your more traditional pocket passers. Plus Caldwell and their current coach, Gus Bradley, are very much high character guys. As much as people believe Khan will kick down the door and tell them to draft Manziel, I don't see it happening. Caldwell seems like the type of dude who told Khan "I'll be your general manager, but I'm not drafting Manziel." Khan still hired him.

The Browns scare me. Kyle Shanahan really had a lot of success with RGIII and I bet he will try to recreate that with Manziel. And while Khan might be willing to take a backseat to his staff, I doubt Jimmy Haslam gives a damn what anyone says. It's no secret how unstable that organization is. If Haslam wants Manziel, he's going to get Manziel. And I fear he wants Manziel...
Just for argument's sake, if Manziel were to reach his ultimate potential, and he wasn't on the Texans, wouldn't the Browns be the best place for that to happen (for us)? The way that franchise is run, they don't seem like they would ever be a serious championship threat, even with a great QB.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3445
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
You are certainly free to think so, but I'm not sure you even understand the point I'm making.

I never insinuated anything of the sort so I'm not sure where this rant is coming from.

We seem to be on different pages. I never said anything about this being like 2006. Did you read my post?

I'm talking about projecting QBs to the next level based on their intangibles instead of based on their tangible ability.
It was based on when you said this in post 3478:

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
I know a lot of you guys pushing for Manziel are Aggies (I know some aren't) and I think it's great that you're supporting your guy. But you sound exactly like the Texas fans when Vince came out
Maybe I'm crazy, but it sure sounded an awful a lot like you were comparing Aggie fans of Manziel with 2006 Texas fans of Vince Young.

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Old 04-25-2014   #3446
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Just for argument's sake, if Manziel were to reach his ultimate potential, and he wasn't on the Texans, wouldn't the Browns be the best place for that to happen (for us)? The way that franchise is run, they don't seem like they would ever be a serious championship threat, even with a great QB.
No. If he reaches his ultimate potential, it would suck for the rest of the league. The Browns have consistently had some pretty decent defenses. They also have a couple of pretty good pass catchers in Josh Gordon, Greg Little, and Jordan Cameron. Easily, their biggest issue is being snake bit in their ability to find a competent QB. If they do that, Cleveland could eventually escape the cellar.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3447
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
It was based on when you said this in post 3478:



Maybe I'm crazy, but it sure sounded an awful a lot like you were comparing Aggie fans of Manziel with 2006 Texas fans of Vince Young.

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Old 04-25-2014   #3448
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by BetaV1 View Post
The Browns scare me. Kyle Shanahan really had a lot of success with RGIII and I bet he will try to recreate that with Manziel.
They almost got Griffin killed.

The biggest thing was the decision to keep playing him, but all those planed runs did not help RG3. He's taller than Manziel, but still on the thin side, not really built to take a beating. I'm not saying they shouldn't run the ball with Griffin, like you said it helped them to a lot of early success.

But Manziel... no. Anyone who calls a designed run, or a zone read should be drawn & quartered with a spoon. If they can't find a way to be productive on offense without calling for Johnny to cross the LOS, then he's not ready & they're not ready.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3449
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
They almost got Griffin killed.

The biggest thing was the decision to keep playing him, but all those planed runs did not help RG3. He's taller than Manziel, but still on the thin side, not really built to take a beating. I'm not saying they shouldn't run the ball with Griffin, like you said it helped them to a lot of early success.

But Manziel... no. Anyone who calls a designed run, or a zone read should be drawn & quartered with a spoon. If they can't find a way to be productive on offense without calling for Johnny to cross the LOS, then he's not ready & they're not ready.
That's why I chose the word "try." In all likelihood, he should / may opt to use Manziel like how the Texans used Schaub in his early tenure. Of course, Schaub's mobility was a bit different pre-injury, but... you know...

The Griffin stuff isn't quite fair though because RGIII does put a lot of those hits on himself.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3450
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
No. If he reaches his ultimate potential, it would suck for the rest of the league. The Browns have consistently had some pretty decent defenses. They also have a couple of pretty good pass catchers in Josh Gordon, Greg Little, and Jordan Cameron. Easily, their biggest issue is being snake bit in their ability to find a competent QB. If they do that, Cleveland could eventually escape the cellar.
When you put it like that, very dangerous offense there. Plus they do have an offensive line that is very capable of keeping Manziel safe. Hey, maybe that means they would eventually give us Hoyer.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3451
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
It was based on when you said this in post 3478:



Maybe I'm crazy, but it sure sounded an awful a lot like you were comparing Aggie fans of Manziel with 2006 Texas fans of Vince Young.

Nope.

Comparing the projection of Manziel to the NFL based on his intangibles to the projection of Young and Tebow based on their intangibles.

In your rush to defend the Aggie faithful from being compared to the Vince Young worshippers (which I do understand) you focused on only one sentence instead of the entire post.

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
This leadership thing sounds so much like Tebow it's scary.

I know a lot of you guys pushing for Manziel are Aggies (I know some aren't) and I think it's great that you're supporting your guy. But you sound exactly like the Texas fans when Vince came out and the SEC fans when Tebow came out.

I'm not saying Manziel is the same player as those two. I think he's better. But all of this talk is just so familiar. All of this "IT", "leader", and "competitor" stuff is great but it's not what counts. That stuff can make a good player great, and it can make a great player a legend, but it has nothing to do with the fundamental questions about Manziel's ability to transition his game to the NFL. Hundreds of guys with those three qualities never made it.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3452
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
They almost got Griffin killed.

The biggest thing was the decision to keep playing him, but all those planed runs did not help RG3. He's taller than Manziel, but still on the thin side, not really built to take a beating. I'm not saying they shouldn't run the ball with Griffin, like you said it helped them to a lot of early success.

But Manziel... no. Anyone who calls a designed run, or a zone read should be drawn & quartered with a spoon. If they can't find a way to be productive on offense without calling for Johnny to cross the LOS, then he's not ready & they're not ready.
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Originally Posted by BetaV1 View Post
That's why I chose the word "try." In all likelihood, he should / may opt to use Manziel like how the Texans used Schaub in his early tenure. Of course, Schaub's mobility was a bit different pre-injury, but... you know...

The Griffin stuff isn't quite fair though because RGIII does put a lot of those hits on himself.



I have seen nothing that leads me to believe that Manziel will not revert to his natural detrimental tendencies, ala Vick, Tebow, RGIII and VY. Just because you may have seen a seemingly greatly improved choreographed under-center pocket passing ballet on his Pro Day, when a herd of rushing fierce bulls muck up the situation, expect the call of the wild to always rear its ugly head.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3453
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post


I have seen nothing that leads me to believe that Manziel will not revert to his natural detrimental tendencies, ala Vick, Tebow, RGIII and VY. Just because you may have seen a seemingly greatly improved choreographed under-center pocket passing ballet on his Pro Day, when a herd of rushing fierce bulls muck up the situation, expect the call of the wild to always rear its ugly head.
Well if a herd of rushing fierce bulls muck up the situation, I hope whomever is our QB runs like hell. lol Hopefully our new Oline will reduce greatly chance of that occurring.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3454
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Nope.

Comparing the projection of Manziel to the NFL based on his intangibles to the projection of Young and Tebow based on their intangibles.

In your rush to defend the Aggie faithful from being compared to the Vince Young worshippers (which I do understand) you focused on only one sentence instead of the entire post.
Well to be honest with you, I kind of used your post as a launching point to give another perspective. I recognize there are TONS of people that view the situation like you do, but even more specifically to 2006 and VY, and so I used your post to express my reasons for why I don't believe it is accurate to compare this 100% to 2006. There are similarities but aside from them both being fast and athletic, I don't really see THAT many similarities between him and VY.

But to address the main idea of the post in question, I hold the same views about that as I do about comparing him to VY: it's lazy reporting. I think you would be willing to admit that Manziel is a much more accomplished passer than either VY or Tebow, has a stronger arm, and shows more potential of being a successful pocket passer than either of those guys. Yeah, he better learn to pass in the pocket, but surely you can see he has a ton more potential of becoming a successful passer than either Young (dumb) or Tebow (horribly inaccurate).

Like I've said before. If we hold out for the next sure thing (Andrew Luck), we are going to be waiting a LONG time. Those guys just don't come along very often. Manziel's cons are size, standing up in the pocket, forcing passes trying to hit the homerun, and relying on his legs too much. His pros are his instincts, accuracy, arm strength, intelligence, leadership, and athleticism. I know you probably disagree, but I would take the risk of his cons to get a shot at a player with his pros.

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post


I have seen nothing that leads me to believe that Manziel will not revert to his natural detrimental tendencies, ala Vick, Tebow, RGIII and VY. Just because you may have seen a seemingly greatly improved choreographed under-center pocket passing ballet on his Pro Day, when a herd of rushing fierce bulls muck up the situation, expect the call of the wild to always rear its ugly head.
Last I checked, Vick had a pretty dang good career considering he missed two full years in the prime of his career and still made it to 4 pro bowls, took his team to a conference championship game (something the Texans have never been to in our entire existence), and ran for more yards than any QB in NFL history. RGIII has had one very good NFL season and one average, injury plagued season. Jury is still out on what he will become. Vince Young showed real promise going to the Pro Bowl his rookie year, taking the Titans to the postseason two out of his first three years, and seeming to improve in his passing every season. Eventually, the bottom dropped out with his fragile psyche, and VY became a hasbeen. Of your list, Tebow was the only one that was totally a bust (but did have a couple of pretty impressive playoff wins), and most anyone could see he wouldn't be a successful NFL QB, because he was one of the most inaccurate QBs to ever step foot on an NFL field.

So in summary, it's too early to call Griffin a never was, Vick had a pretty decent career that could have been even better if he wasn't a dumb ass fighting dogs, VY looked to show real promise but his mental state never allowed him to reach his full potential, and Tebow just couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. Arguably, three out of those four players would compete for the spot of greatest Texans QB of all-time. If I'm the Texans, I'd take my chances with Manziel.
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Old 04-25-2014   #3455
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Nope.

Comparing the projection of Manziel to the NFL based on his intangibles to the projection of Young and Tebow based on their intangibles.In your rush to defend the Aggie faithful from being compared to the Vince Young worshippers (which I do understand) you focused on only one sentence instead of the entire post.
Quote:
in·tan·gi·ble

/inˈtanjəbəl/

adjective

adjective: intangible

1. unable to be touched or grasped; not having physical presence
.
Basing projections on intangibles seems intangible to me.
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Old 04-26-2014   #3456
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
This leadership thing sounds so much like Tebow it's scary.

I know a lot of you guys pushing for Manziel are Aggies (I know some aren't) and I think it's great that you're supporting your guy. But you sound exactly like the Texas fans when Vince came out and the SEC fans when Tebow came out.

I'm not saying Manziel is the same player as those two. I think he's better. But all of this talk is just so familiar. All of this "IT", "leader", and "competitor" stuff is great but it's not what counts. That stuff can make a good player great, and it can make a great player a legend, but it has nothing to do with the fundamental questions about Manziel's ability to transition his game to the NFL. Hundreds of guys with those three qualities never made it.
Teams who value "IT" and "leadership" on the same level as athleticism and football IQ end up picking a lot of busts. Those sort of things are tie breakers for when you have multiple prospects with similar grades and need something to put one above the others.

Mark Sanchez had "IT" and "leadership" going into the draft despite not being that impressive on film. Talking heads couldn't say enough about how if Sanchez and the other QBs were riding in a car, Sanchez would be driving because he oozed "IT" all over your face.

Nobody gets by on "IT" except super models and politicians.
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Old 04-26-2014   #3457
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Default Re: Manziel

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.
Understood. & I don't have problem with Manziel reverting to his habits from time to time. I'm just saying it would be irresponsible to throw in planned runs, or even zone reads (where there's a greater than 50% chance he's going to run past the LOS).

I like his ability to extend plays, find open receivers, & throw accurately on the move. Every QB should be a threat to cross the LOS, but he shouldn't do so with regularity.
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Old 04-26-2014   #3458
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Default Re: Manziel

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Understood. & I don't have problem with Manziel reverting to his habits from time to time. I'm just saying it would be irresponsible to throw in planned runs, or even zone reads (where there's a greater than 50% chance he's going to run past the LOS).

I like his ability to extend plays, find open receivers, & throw accurately on the move. Every QB should be a threat to cross the LOS, but he shouldn't do so with regularity.

I agree with what you've said. I just feel that in the NFL, Manziel, despite constant coaching to the otherwise, will more likely easily revert to his old habits.........yes, resulting in extended plays........but not in extended positive results. As opposed to college, with him facing NFL size and speed D players every single week.......every single play...........this is not to even mention how familiar I expect he will become with extended rehab.
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Old 04-26-2014   #3459
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Default Re: Manziel

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I agree with what you've said. I just feel that in the NFL, Manziel, despite constant coaching to the otherwise, will more likely easily revert to his old habits.........yes, resulting in extended plays........but not in extended positive results. As opposed to college, with him facing NFL size and speed D players every single week.......every single play...........this is not to even mention how familiar I expect he will become with extended rehab.
Sounds Like Romo???
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Old 04-26-2014   #3460
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Gil Brandt says Johnny Manziel should be #1 because "he aced the psychological tests." -- SiriusXM radio.
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