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Old 04-11-2014   #3361
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Lord Bills View Post
so manziel's intelligence is validated with his wonderlic scores.

the texans will regret passing on johnny football.

mark my words,

Johnny Football will be a success in the NFL so will Clowney.

Sad that the texans are passing up on both. This draft will be forever remembered in infamy, the day the texans passed on the best defensive and best offensive player in the same draft where they had the first pick overall.
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And I'll no longer be a Texans fan.
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Old 04-11-2014   #3362
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Default Re: Manziel

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Sad that the texans are passing up on both.
Says who?

Clowney is as likely a pick as any.
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Old 04-11-2014   #3363
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Default Re: Manziel

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Says who?
Says the Grand Wizard of Spedville.
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Old 04-11-2014   #3364
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Default Re: Manziel

Johnny McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
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Manziel beats Bridgewater, Bortles on NFL's Wonderlic test:

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans...onderlic-test/
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Old 04-12-2014   #3365
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Lord Bills View Post
so manziel's intelligence is validated with his wonderlic scores.

the texans will regret passing on johnny football.

mark my words,

Johnny Football will be a success in the NFL so will Clowney.

Sad that the texans are passing up on both. This draft will be forever remembered in infamy, the day the texans passed on the best defensive and best offensive player in the same draft where they had the first pick overall.
Is this known as the Rick Smith draft?
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Old 04-12-2014   #3366
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Default Re: Manziel

I see Manziel highlights and the bulk of them are him running. Not passing. In the select passing highlights he throws it up for grabs and a wr bails him out. Or the wr is so open my 9 year old daughter could complete the pass. Is he a winner and a playmaker? Yup. So was Tebow. The jitter bug routine is fascinating to watch but it has a short shelf life...sooner then later he's going to have to pass like a pro qb and I don't expect to see the same results we saw in the sec. Sale.
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Old 04-12-2014   #3367
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by powda View Post
I see Manziel highlights and the bulk of them are him running. Not passing. In the select passing highlights he throws it up for grabs and a wr bails him out. Or the wr is so open my 9 year old daughter could complete the pass. Is he a winner and a playmaker? Yup. So was Tebow. The jitter bug routine is fascinating to watch but it has a short shelf life...sooner then later he's going to have to pass like a pro qb and I don't expect to see the same results we saw in the sec. Sale.
Not saying we should take Manziel, but Manziel is an extremely accurate passer. The highlights are just that. He made big time throws against Alabama both years that only a select few guys can make. You have to watch entire games to appreciate just how good he can be when he's mechanically sound. He's special when the play breaks down, but he's very good getting the ball where it needs to be.

I had a debate with a scout who actually went to A&M and he kept telling me how Manziel didn't have a strong arm after his Freshman season. I told him to go back and watch the Cotton Bowl against OU and look at some of the throws he made. If he can play a little smarter and anticipate throws better he's going to be a beast in this league. I just hope we don't have to face twice a year if he does improve in those areas.
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Old 04-12-2014   #3368
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
Not saying we should take Manziel, but Manziel is an extremely accurate passer. The highlights are just that. He made big time throws against Alabama both years that only a select few guys can make. You have to watch entire games to appreciate just how good he can be when he's mechanically sound. He's special when the play breaks down, but he's very good getting the ball where it needs to be.

I had a debate with a scout who actually went to A&M and he kept telling me how Manziel didn't have a strong arm after his Freshman season. I told him to go back and watch the Cotton Bowl against OU and look at some of the throws he made. If he can play a little smarter and anticipate throws better he's going to be a beast in this league. I just hope we don't have to face twice a year if he does improve in those areas.
The problem with watching highlights is theyre a very small sample size of what a player is on a down in down out basis. I have watched very little college ball for the last couple of years so understanding Manziel in the context of a game is a bit difficult for me. I haven't seen how he comands an offense or orchestrates a 15 play drive. I don't question his arm strength because on film it looks comparable to both bortles and bridgewater (i'd rate him in between the 2 while giving the overall edge to bortles.) I think we all agree accuracy is supremely important...but it can be misleading.

As a example, I distinctly recall reading a scouting report on Blaine Gabbert which said he was overhyped and his accuracy numbers were a sham because all he was required to do in his college offense was 5 yard dink and dunk passes. His downfield passing percentage painted a different picture...in hindsight, a more accurate picture of his ability. Maybe Manziel isnt that guy but the little ive seen on my own and the highlights ive watched don't convince me he's a true passing qb. In truth, I think O'Brien is a stickler for a refined disciplined operator of his system and wont go near an improvising gunslinger like Manziel.

Let me go ahead and call my shot now...Manziel's career will be a flash in the pan eerily similar to Vince Youngs. 1or 2 good seasons with the occasional espn highlights and then poof. ..gone.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3369
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by powda View Post
The problem with watching highlights is theyre a very small sample size of what a player is on a down in down out basis. I have watched very little college ball for the last couple of years so understanding Manziel in the context of a game is a bit difficult for me. I haven't seen how he comands an offense or orchestrates a 15 play drive. I don't question his arm strength because on film it looks comparable to both bortles and bridgewater (i'd rate him in between the 2 while giving the overall edge to bortles.) I think we all agree accuracy is supremely important...but it can be misleading.

As a example, I distinctly recall reading a scouting report on Blaine Gabbert which said he was overhyped and his accuracy numbers were a sham because all he was required to do in his college offense was 5 yard dink and dunk passes. His downfield passing percentage painted a different picture...in hindsight, a more accurate picture of his ability. Maybe Manziel isnt that guy but the little ive seen on my own and the highlights ive watched don't convince me he's a true passing qb. In truth, I think O'Brien is a stickler for a refined disciplined operator of his system and wont go near an improvising gunslinger like Manziel.

Let me go ahead and call my shot now...Manziel's career will be a flash in the pan eerily similar to Vince Youngs. 1or 2 good seasons with the occasional espn highlights and then poof. ..gone.
I think Manziel's arm is stronger than both Bortles and Bridgewater and there are several analysts who agree with that. I've said over and over again that Manziel is not without flaws. To be honest I'm starting to think he and O'Brien could make a perfect team. He needs a guy like that who's detail oriented and demands discipline. I think he could bring the best out of him, and O'Brien could benefit because it would open up his offense even more. Every coach would love a mobile QB who can also make throws from the pocket if they could have one.

Your comparisons with Tebow and Gabbert though aren't very good. Gabbert threw a ton of screens in that offense and he had possibly the worst pocket presence I've ever seen from a 1st round pick. Manziel needs to be better stepping up into the pocket at times, but he's nothing like Gabbert whatsoever. Don't even get me started on the Tebow comparison. I know you're just basing your opinion on gut since you've admitted you don't watch much college football, but that's like me saying the next great up and coming soccer player will be a bust.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3370
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I think Manziel's arm is stronger than both Bortles and Bridgewater and there are several analysts who agree with that. I've said over and over again that Manziel is not without flaws. To be honest I'm starting to think he and O'Brien could make a perfect team. He needs a guy like that who's detail oriented and demands discipline. I think he could bring the best out of him, and O'Brien could benefit because it would open up his offense even more. Every coach would love a mobile QB who can also make throws from the pocket if they could have one.

Your comparisons with Tebow and Gabbert though aren't very good. Gabbert threw a ton of screens in that offense and he had possibly the worse pocket presence I've ever seen from a 1st round pick. Manziel needs to be better stepping up into the pocket at times, but he's nothing like Gabbert whatsoever. Don't even get me started on the Tebow comparison. I know you're just basing your opinion on gut since you've admitted you don't watch much college football, but that's like me saying the next great up and coming soccer player will be a bust.
Either Texans take Manziel & get themselves a franchise QB or his nemesis Jadeveon Clowney who will run him down, possibly breaking him in the process. Fitzpartick is actually a bigger dude like 6-2 230 who scored way higher on his wonderlick (48) with plethora of experience.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3371
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Default Re: Manziel

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Either Texans take Manziel & get themselves a franchise QB or his nemesis Jadeveon Clowney who will run him down, possibly breaking him in the process. Fitzpartick is actually a bigger dude like 6-2 230 who scored way higher on his wonderlick (48) with plethora of experience.
So you're saying Fitz is a better player?
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Old 04-13-2014   #3372
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Default Re: Manziel

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Your comparisons with Tebow and Gabbert though aren't very good. Gabbert threw a ton of screens in that offense and he had possibly the worse pocket presence I've ever seen from a 1st round pick. Manziel needs to be better stepping up into the pocket at times, but he's nothing like Gabbert whatsoever. Don't even get me started on the Tebow comparison. I know you're just basing your opinion on gut since you've admitted you don't watch much college football, but that's like me saying the next great up and coming soccer player will be a bust.
My comparisons to Gabbert and Tebow was more about character traits and evaluations then any direct connection between them and Manziel. You said Manziel was accurate as many people claimed Gabbert was. Tebow was a college legend and winner just like Manziel is. At the end of the day I just don't think Manziel's game translates in the pros. If you like him cool...I understand why. No harm no foul. I don't find myself liking any of the qb prospects enough to argue for them or against them. I'm in camp with Clowney and just barely...my perfect scenario is a trade back.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3373
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Either Texans take Manziel & get themselves a franchise QB or his nemesis Jadeveon Clowney who will run him down, possibly breaking him in the process. Fitzpartick is actually a bigger dude like 6-2 230 who scored way higher on his wonderlick (48) with plethora of experience.
I can see Clowney killing them both equally...or maybe he'll take a nap near the hashmarks.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3374
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by powda View Post
The problem with watching highlights is theyre a very small sample size of what a player is on a down in down out basis. I have watched very little college ball for the last couple of years so understanding Manziel in the context of a game is a bit difficult for me. I haven't seen how he comands an offense or orchestrates a 15 play drive. I don't question his arm strength because on film it looks comparable to both bortles and bridgewater (i'd rate him in between the 2 while giving the overall edge to bortles.) I think we all agree accuracy is supremely important...but it can be misleading.

As a example, I distinctly recall reading a scouting report on Blaine Gabbert which said he was overhyped and his accuracy numbers were a sham because all he was required to do in his college offense was 5 yard dink and dunk passes. His downfield passing percentage painted a different picture...in hindsight, a more accurate picture of his ability. Maybe Manziel isnt that guy but the little ive seen on my own and the highlights ive watched don't convince me he's a true passing qb. In truth, I think O'Brien is a stickler for a refined disciplined operator of his system and wont go near an improvising gunslinger like Manziel.

Let me go ahead and call my shot now...Manziel's career will be a flash in the pan eerily similar to Vince Youngs. 1or 2 good seasons with the occasional espn highlights and then poof. ..gone.
If anything, Manziel is too much a downfield passer. He suffers a little bit from the same cons as Winston as far as his passing goes. He doesn't take check downs when he should, looking for the big play far too often and they've come too often for him to really refine the take what the defense gives part of playing QB. Manziel can be a pro QB if he can a) avoid injury, b) constantly work on the mental part of the game, and c) learn to play within the pocket. C is the key. If he doesn't learn to make QUICK decisions within the pocket, he will fail. He's really a beginner at this part of playing QB. He is used to either having a long clock or moving around and buying time. The NFL is about making a quick decision and quick throw, most of the time, without that skill a QB is practically useless. See Case Keenum.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3375
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Default Re: Manziel

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My comparisons to Gabbert and Tebow was more about character traits and evaluations then any direct connection between them and Manziel. You said Manziel was accurate as many people claimed Gabbert was. Tebow was a college legend and winner just like Manziel is. At the end of the day I just don't think Manziel's game translates in the pros. If you like him cool...I understand why. No harm no foul. I don't find myself liking any of the qb prospects enough to argue for them or against them. I'm in camp with Clowney and just barely...my perfect scenario is a trade back.
I hear you. At this point I'm honestly not sure what or who I want in the 1st. I know who I don't want. I understand your opinion of Manziel and others who feel the same way. I just think he has something Gabbert, Young, Russell, Leaf, Couch, Tebow, and other 1st round busts lacked. If O'Brien passes up on Manziel and we watch him turn another team around he'll be looking for an OC job within 3 years IMO. If he doesn't think he can work with him then I'm on board with whatever he chooses to do, but for his sake he better hope Johnny flops at the next level with another team.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3376
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Default Re: Manziel

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If anything, Manziel is too much a downfield passer. He suffers a little bit from the same cons as Winston as far as his passing goes. He doesn't take check downs when he should, looking for the big plaay. Really, Manziel can be a pro QB if he can a) avoid injury, b) constantly work on the mental part of the game, and c) learn to play within the pocket. C is the key. If he doesn't learn to make QUICK decisions within the pocket, he will fail. He's really a beginner at this part of playing QB. He is used to either having a long clock or moving around and buying time. The NFL is about making a quick decision and quick throw, most of the time, without that skill a QB is practically useless. See Case Keenum.
So if your coaching him do you encourage him to hang in there and read whats downfield (negating his mobile talent) and hope for him to develop OR do you give him the ball and a play while telling him...get me a first down no matter what? My gut says O'Brien is a very detail oriented-scripted individual and coupling him with a guy like Manziel could prove combustible. Maybe successful...but probably not. Sorry but Manziel just looks like the ANTI Brady to me.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3377
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Default Re: Manziel

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So if your coaching him do you encourage him to hang in there and read whats downfield (negating his mobile talent) and hope for him to develop OR do you give him the ball and a play while telling him...get me a first down no matter what? My gut says O'Brien is a very detail oriented-scripted individual and coupling him with a guy like Manziel could prove combustible. Maybe successful...but probably not. Sorry but Manziel just looks like the ANTI Brady to me.
I think the mobile talent is a secondary benefit that you don't really focus on, outside of running more bootlegs etc. You coach him on the basics of playing QB in the NFL, making quick reads, not holding on to the ball unnecessarily, recognizing the defense. That's where he really needs help. I see Manziel as a guy that doesn't translate into a day 1 starter at all. He has secondary tools, but he needs major work on the basics of playing QB in the NFL.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3378
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Default Re: Manziel

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So if your coaching him do you encourage him to hang in there and read whats downfield (negating his mobile talent) and hope for him to develop OR do you give him the ball and a play while telling him...get me a first down no matter what? My gut says O'Brien is a very detail oriented-scripted individual and coupling him with a guy like Manziel could prove combustible. Maybe successful...but probably not. Sorry but Manziel just looks like the ANTI Brady to me.
True even at the collegiate level. Brady was far less accurate, for fewer yards and negative rushing.

Good luck finding that "needle in the haystack" with the current brain trust in place. A guy with Brady's stats likely goes UDFA these days.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3379
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
I see Manziel as a guy that doesn't translate into a day 1 starter at all. He has secondary tools, but he needs major work on the basics of playing QB in the NFL.
I find that agreeable. Per the talking heads bridgewater is the most nfl ready day 1 and I want to include mettenberger as well as garrapolo as guys who can competently hit the field a bit faster then Manziel. Wether im wrong on the last two is an afterthought...how long do you think Manziel CAN sit and learn? Any shaky qb play ahead of Manziel might result in a fan riot. I don't think Manziel learning on the bench is a luxury that will last long. I will say it would've been a blast to see Kubiak's bootleg offense with someone like Manziel rather then concrete schaub.
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Old 04-13-2014   #3380
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by powda View Post
I find that agreeable. Per the talking heads bridgewater is the most nfl ready day 1 and I want to include mettenberger as well as garrapolo as guys who can competently hit the field a bit faster then Manziel. Wether im wrong on the last two is an afterthought...how long do you think Manziel CAN sit and learn? Any shaky qb play ahead of Manziel might result in a fan riot. I don't think Manziel learning on the bench is a luxury that will last long. I will say it would've been a blast to see Kubiak's bootleg offense with someone like Manziel rather then concrete schaub.
It does suck that Manziel would of been fun to watch in in Kubiaks offense. A younger Schaub would probably be really good in OB's offense. Our timing sucks!!!!! It seems like it always has.
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