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Old 09-11-2012   #61
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

This is not a hard process at all. Folks want to make it more difficult than it is.
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Old 09-11-2012   #62
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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This is not a hard process at all. Folks want to make it more difficult than it is.
I think mostly we fans want the rule to change in our favor when we're catching the ball and then in our favor when we're on defense.

My wife was ticked. She was like "His feet were in!" and I was like "He didn't catch the ball with his feet. Or his hands, for that matter."

Then she hit me.
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Old 09-11-2012   #63
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Cool Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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It really isn't, and those factors you're listing don't change the ruling in any way. It's about the entire process of going to the ground, and where a player is on the field of play doesn't change the fact that it's a process play and that's what dictates the ruling.
Wrong. I wish I could pull up the videos from years ago. They had Mike Pereira when he was still with the League on NFLN explain two of these (seemingly identical) plays. There were a few subtle things he explained as to why one was a touchdown and one was incomplete (in both cases the pass was dropped).

If someone wants to get really industrious, there are threads on here some where.

(granted Jean was incomplete, I'm just saying endzone catches are not that simple)
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Old 09-11-2012   #64
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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Wrong.
What's wrong about what he said?

He's right...

Being in the endzone doesn't change the fact that you have to maintain possession when going to the ground or out of bounds.

Once your momentum stops or after your initial contact with the ground you have to have possesion. I don't know if it says that in the official rule book, but that's basically what it is when judging catches going to the ground or falling out of bounds.
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Old 09-11-2012   #65
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Cool Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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What's wrong about what he said?

He's right...

Being in the endzone doesn't change the fact that you have to maintain possession when going to the ground or out of bounds.
He said none of those factors affect the ruling whether it is incomplete or a TD but that's not correct. Shortly after the Megatron ruling there were similar plays that were labeled TDs. The explanations given were tiny little subtle differences (maybe made up to CYA?).
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Old 09-11-2012   #66
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

At first glance I thought it was incomplete because the ball came out end of play but I watched it a few times and I think I have changed my mind. Once Jean is down with two feet in the end zone and touched by a player he has established possession. Otherwise on every play in the end zone you could just mollywhop any receiver and hope that when they fall down and hit the ground out of bounds that they drop it. Had jean not been touched and gone to the ground I can see the whole possession issue but he was forced to the ground. In the field of play the DB can force someone out of bounds etc but once he taps both feet and then gets touched isn't the play over?

Kind of changing my mind here because Jean goes to the ground as a result of contact from a player in bounds.

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Old 09-11-2012   #67
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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Originally Posted by Yankee_In_TX View Post
He said none of those factors affect the ruling whether it is incomplete or a TD but that's not correct. Shortly after the Megatron ruling there were similar plays that were labeled TDs. The explanations given were tiny little subtle differences (maybe made up to CYA?).
I think Megatron's play would have been a TD had he not gone to the ground and used the ground as a brace with the hand he had the ball in.


I think he had control of it, but you can argue that he used the ground control the ball..

Anyways....I don't want to get too much into it over this...Both of you guys made some good points..
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Old 09-11-2012   #68
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Cool Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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I think Megatron's play would have been a TD had he not gone to the ground and used the ground as a brace with the hand he had the ball in.


I think he had control of it, but you can argue that he used the ground control the ball..

Anyways....I don't want to get too much into it over this...Both of you guys made some good points..
Oh, I'm not saying he is wrong on the rules, I am saying he is wrong on the League's interpretation of the rule over the last 5ish years. They've really mucked it up, again, maybe to CYA inconsistent calls...?
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Old 09-11-2012   #69
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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In the field of play the DB can force someone out of bounds etc but once he taps both feet and then gets touched isn't the play over?

Mike
No...

No matter where you are if you are going to the ground you have to maintain possesion through your fall and after your initial contact with the ground. Even if you catch it in bounds, tap your feet and get pushed out...

Jean's momentum hadn't even stopped before the ball started moving around.
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Old 09-11-2012   #70
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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Wrong. I wish I could pull up the videos from years ago. They had Mike Pereira when he was still with the League on NFLN explain two of these (seemingly identical) plays. There were a few subtle things he explained as to why one was a touchdown and one was incomplete (in both cases the pass was dropped).

If someone wants to get really industrious, there are threads on here some where.

(granted Jean was incomplete, I'm just saying endzone catches are not that simple)
I think you're likely conflating two distinct concepts about what constitutes a catch. Where the receiver makes the catch--sideline, out of bounds, end zone, in the field of play---is immaterial if the receiver is going to the ground in the act of making the reception. The rule is clear on that point. Where the rule book mentions sideline and end zone and whatnot it is only for the purposes of clarity. Those are subsets, i.e. notes, about the overriding principle at play.

On the other hand, if the receiver makes a catch where he isn't going to the ground, but gets knocked to the ground and fumbles AFTER crossing the goal line, that's ruled a TD catch because he did enough to demonstrate possession, and it's not a fumble because the ball has crossed the goal line.

My guess is you're confusing plays where a receiver is going to the ground at the outset with ones where he isn't, but then gets knocked to the ground by a defender. It's in those latter situations that the end zone factor comes into play.
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Old 09-11-2012   #71
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Cool Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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My guess is you're confusing plays where a receiver is going to the ground at the outset with ones where he isn't, but then gets knocked to the ground by a defender. It's in those latter situations that the end zone factor comes into play.
See, not that simple
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Old 09-11-2012   #72
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7QwZCIwMyc

Pretty good explanation here.
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Old 09-11-2012   #73
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really want to know what the f Kubiak was thinking on that particular play. For those of you at the game, did the replay on the big screen not show the ball on the ground after Lestar rolled over? From my sofa at home it was totally obvious that it wasn't a catch because he didn't control it throughout.

Was Kubiak challenging the call based on the crowd response, what he was being told from the booth, or from what he saw on the replay screen? Surely he knows the rule. Right?
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Old 09-11-2012   #74
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really want to know what the f Kubiak was thinking on that particular play. For those of you at the game, did the replay on the big screen not show the ball on the ground after Lestar rolled over? From my sofa at home it was totally obvious that it wasn't a catch because he didn't control it throughout.

Was Kubiak challenging the call based on the crowd response, what he was being told from the booth, or from what he saw on the replay screen? Surely he knows the rule. Right?
I don't think he saw it...

I think since the Refs called him out of bounds Kubiak was just looking at that part of it...
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Old 09-11-2012   #75
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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I don't think he saw it...

I think since the Refs called him out of bounds Kubiak was just looking at that part of it...
That makes sense, but where were the guys in the box who are supposed to advise him when/when not to challenge? Wasted a timeout.
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Old 09-11-2012   #76
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really want to know what the f Kubiak was thinking on that particular play. For those of you at the game, did the replay on the big screen not show the ball on the ground after Lestar rolled over? From my sofa at home it was totally obvious that it wasn't a catch because he didn't control it throughout.

Was Kubiak challenging the call based on the crowd response, what he was being told from the booth, or from what he saw on the replay screen? Surely he knows the rule. Right?
The ruling indicated on the field was out of bounds, and I think that's what was focused on when deciding to challenge. Fouts was calling it a TD in the announcing booth, and calling for the challenge. Lots of Kubiak's challenges can be called questionable (to put it mildly), but I don't think this is one of them. As a viewer at home, I thought it was going to be won at the time he made the challenge, because of the feet being in bounds. By the time the ruling was given, I knew it would be upheld, but that didn't make me think it was a bad challenge given the circumstances.
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Old 09-11-2012   #77
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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That makes sense, but where were the guys in the box who are supposed to advise him when/when not to challenge? Wasted a timeout.
So when you were viewing at home, did you see the ball come loose before or after the challenge flag was thrown?
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Old 09-11-2012   #78
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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So when you were viewing at home, did you see the ball come loose before or after the challenge flag was thrown?
YES! Well before. Said it in the GZ.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/sho...&postcount=134

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/sho...&postcount=140
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Old 09-11-2012   #79
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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So when you were viewing at home, did you see the ball come loose before or after the challenge flag was thrown?
It was before.
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Old 09-11-2012   #80
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Default Re: Lestar Jean incompletion

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Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really want to know what the f Kubiak was thinking on that particular play. For those of you at the game, did the replay on the big screen not show the ball on the ground after Lestar rolled over? From my sofa at home it was totally obvious that it wasn't a catch because he didn't control it throughout.

Was Kubiak challenging the call based on the crowd response, what he was being told from the booth, or from what he saw on the replay screen? Surely he knows the rule. Right?
He was basing it on crowd response and wanting Jean to get the big TD catch, IMO.

Because I immediately knew it was going to be ruled incomplete based on how the ball popped out. Along with the Tom Brady Tuck Rule situation vs. Raiders years and years ago, the recent situation with Calvin Johnson has seared into my mind that a receiver better control the ball all the way through the play when catching it into the end zone...and Jean lost control of the ball too soon after hitting the turf.

When Kubiak threw the flag, I told my wife "He's gonna' lose a time out for that." Yup, he did.

But oh well. We didn't' need the timeout, so might as well toss the flag and challenge the refs on it. All in all, no biggie in my eyes. Nobody melted down on challenges worse than Marvin Lewis did in our game against the Bengals. He burned through all of his timeouts and had no challenges left...ouch.
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