Football Gameplan's 2012 Texans vs Dolphins

[gtexan02]

What do you mean Numbers ALWAYS Lie? Thats ridiculous

Reggie Bush was traded to the Dolphins for a special teamer and a swap of 6th round picks. What do you think Foster would cost someone?

We were offered a 1st for Tate. What do you think someone would offer for Thomas? Anything? You could cut Thomas and it would be unlikely that he would start or even be the #2 on any team

[EmDiggy]

Originally Posted by JCTexan

Yes, I can. Reggie Bush's best year was last year where he rushed for 1,086 yards. Before that he hadn't rushed for 600 yards in a single season. Foster has been the starting RB for two seasons. Last year he rushed for 1,224 yards after missing three games. Foster has now had two seasons better than Bush ever has. To compare the two is a joke.

The only production you can compare with Tate and Thomas is last year. Tate rushed for 942 yards compared to Thomas' 581 yards. Again this is vastly in Houston's favor.

Bringing up Lamar Miller is a joke. The #3 RB's will hardly see the field on Sunday if the game is competitive at all.

You are comparing numbers...not talent.

So, by your account, Emmitt Smith was better than Gayle Sayers or to a lesser extent Bo Jackson? (hint: there's no wrong answer because its all opinion)

[Rey]

I have disagreed with plenty of your takes before, but this just makes me completely question your evaluation skills.

Maybe you believe bush is a caterpillar waiting to turn into a butterfly, but for your analysis of the game you called the backfields a wash.

That's asinine.

You look at this game coming up and you say the dlolphins and texans backfields are a wash?

I don't know why, but it's a little frustrating that you actually took time to put together analysis and came to that conclusion.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

You are comparing numbers...not talent.

So, by your account, Emmitt Smith was better than Gayle Sayers or to a lesser extent Bo Jackson? (hint: there's no wrong answer because its all opinion)

So basically the dlolphins backfield doesn't have to do anything in the NFL. They are just talented.

I'm curios because most would say that we have one of the better backfields in the league.

Do you put the dolphins combo of bush and Thomas on that same level? As having one of if not the best backfield in the league?

[JCTexan]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

You are comparing numbers...not talent.

So, by your account, Emmitt Smith was better than Gayle Sayers or to a lesser extent Bo Jackson? (hint: there's no wrong answer because its all opinion)

I am comparing their *production*. If you want to call them equal when nothing Bush has done on the field equates to the *production* Foster has put up in his first two seasons expect to get laughed out of here.

[Dutchrudder]

For more analysis on the subject: http://boards.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=32532

I'm honestly trying to think of RB corps around the NFL that would be better or close to the Texans talented 1-2 punch of Foster/Tate. Only ones that come to mind as being close are Carolina with Williams/Stewart/Tolbert, Chicago with Forte/Michael Bush, KC with JC/Hillis/Grey, and maybe Jax or Minny would round out the top 5. Miami doesn't even enter the equation for me.

If we're going 3-deep in the RB depth, I think Carolina would be the top team, and Houston would be #2, but the difference would be that Foster is so much better than any of the Panther's RBs that I would rather have him leading the way. Depth is only good so long as you use it, and I don't really see Forsett or Lamar Miller doing much in this game unless someone gets hurt.

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

You are comparing numbers...not talent.

So, by your account, Emmitt Smith was better than Gayle Sayers or to a lesser extent Bo Jackson? (hint: there's no wrong answer because its all opinion)

What you're effectively arguing is that there's no difference between Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf.

Having talent doesn't make you good or productive.

Bo Jackson could have been the greatest RB ever to play the game. He had the talent. But he was nowhere near productive enough to even be in that discussion.

In a 6 year career, Reggie Bush has rushed for 3100 yards and received 2400 yards and scored 23 rushing, 13 receiving, and 4 returning TDs. In a 3 year career (with the first spent mostly on the practice squad), Arian Foster has rushed for 3100 yards and received for 1300 yards and scored 29 rushing, and 4 receiving TDs. Arian Foster has led the league in rushing one time and Reggie Bush has never been in the discussion.

If you're putting together an NFL team right now and you're drafting your RB and you've got the choice of Arian Foster and Reggie Bush, are you telling me that it's a push? Are you telling me you'd have a problem choosing one over the other and that you'd spend more than a fraction of a second considering your options?

Personally, I'd choose Ben Tate over Reggie Bush, let alone Arian Foster.

But, like you said, that's your opinion.

It's just a really questionable opinion.

[EmDiggy]

Originally Posted by Rey

So basically the dlolphins backfield doesn't have to do anything in the NFL. They are just talented.

I'm curios because most would say that we have one of the better backfields in the league.

Do you put the dolphins combo of bush and Thomas on that same level? As having one of if not the best backfield in the league?

I'm strictly and purposely avoiding the obvious argument that is there to be had with regards to the system that the Texans operate in... Its the reason why M.S. never was able to find his "Terrell Davis or Clinton Portis" ever again.. The System makes Ben Tate look like a feature back.. So, in my opinion, Tate is no different than Thomas.

What most don't understand about the "system" is that when you have an exceptional talent, they put up great numbers and their talent supersedes the system (i.e. Terrell Davis, Clinton Portis, Arian Foster, Michael Crabtree at Texas Tech) So I'm giving Foster his props. I also feel that Bush has exceptional talent. 2011 was the 1st time he was given consistent carries from traditional formations and he proved he could handle it...he actually did it at USC as well. They also ran a Pro-style offense (Lot of I-Formation, Ace, Off-set I). In New Orleans, he never got that opportunity.. look at how they are using the trio of backs there now..

My point is that Both teams have two exceptional talents and two decent #2 backs.

Thus, a push

[EmDiggy]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

What you're effectively arguing is that there's no difference between Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf.

Having talent doesn't make you good or productive.

Bo Jackson could have been the greatest RB ever to play the game. He had the talent. But he was nowhere near productive enough to even be in that discussion.

In a 6 year career, Reggie Bush has rushed for 3100 yards and received 2400 yards and scored 23 rushing, 13 receiving, and 4 returning TDs. In a 3 year career (with the first spent mostly on the practice squad), Arian Foster has rushed for 3100 yards and received for 1300 yards and scored 29 rushing, and 4 receiving TDs. Arian Foster has led the league in rushing one time and Reggie Bush has never been in the discussion.

If you're putting together an NFL team right now and you're drafting your RB and you've got the choice of Arian Foster and Reggie Bush, are you telling me that it's a push? Are you telling me you'd have a problem choosing one over the other and that you'd spend more than a fraction of a second considering your options?

Personally, I'd choose Ben Tate over Reggie Bush, let alone Arian Foster.

But, like you said, that's your opinion.

It's just a really questionable opinion.

But my opinion is questionable?

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

I'm sorry, you can't honestly say that Talent-wise Miami isn't equal to the Texans RBs. You're also undervaluing what they drafted in Lamar Miller, who is better than Forsett. Bush in the Texans Off would put up similar numbers as Foster, Foster in the Dolphins Off would put up similar numbers as Bush. Bush is more explosive than Foster, but Foster is more powerful.

Its a wash honestly and unbiasedly

I know how you hate numbers (foolish assertion to begin with) but exactly how is Bush more explosive?

Bush - 6 years in the league - 17 runs over 20 yards, 3 over 40 yards.

Foster - 3 years in the league - 20 runs over 20 yards, 5 over 40 yards (with almost 100 less carries).

The wash would be washing off the stank of any comparison between the two cadres.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

For more analysis on the subject: http://boards.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=32532
.

Haha

Those guys over there are hilarious

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

But my opinion is questionable?

If you think it's a push between Arian Foster and Reggie Bush, then... yes.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

If you think it's a push between Arian Foster and Reggie Bush, then... yes.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

I'm sorry, you can't honestly say that Talent-wise Miami isn't equal to the Texans RBs. You're also undervaluing what they drafted in Lamar Miller, who is better than Forsett. Bush in the Texans Off would put up similar numbers as Foster, Foster in the Dolphins Off would put up similar numbers as Bush. Bush is more explosive than Foster, but Foster is more powerful.

Its a wash honestly and unbiasedly

No he wouldn't.
Bush isn't as a decisive, one cut and go RB as Foster is. You have to have that skill/ability in this offense to be effective. Bush still dances too much and that's counter-productive in this scheme.
Also, as you said yourself, Bush doesn't have the power that Foster has.

I will grant you that, I think, from a breakaway standpoint they might be equivalent. In fact, there was a time that Bush might have had the edge in top-end speed, but with six NFL years on his legs I doubt that is presently the case.

...but I understand, you had to give the Miami fans sommmme reason to tune into the game

[Rey]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

I'm strictly and purposely avoiding the obvious argument that is there to be had with regards to the system that the Texans operate in... Its the reason why M.S. never was able to find his "Terrell Davis or Clinton Portis" ever again.. The System makes Ben Tate look like a feature back.. So, in my opinion, Tate is no different than Thomas.

What most don't understand about the "system" is that when you have an exceptional talent, they put up great numbers and their talent supersedes the system (i.e. Terrell Davis, Clinton Portis, Arian Foster, Michael Crabtree at Texas Tech) So I'm giving Foster his props. I also feel that Bush has exceptional talent. 2011 was the 1st time he was given consistent carries from traditional formations and he proved he could handle it...he actually did it at USC as well. They also ran a Pro-style offense (Lot of I-Formation, Ace, Off-set I). In New Orleans, he never got that opportunity.. look at how they are using the trio of backs there now..

My point is that Both teams have two exceptional talents and two decent #2 backs.

Thus, a push

Ben Tate is just decent?

He averaged more ypc than Arian did and had about 1000 yards rushing last year???

What does he have to do to upgrade past "decent"?

Have you watched him play?

And you keep saying you feel bush has exceptional talent. I won't argue with you on that. But that has absolutely zero to do with your game analysis.

I think a lot of players in the NFL have exceptional talent. But that doesn't always translate to on field production which is what ultimately matters ya know...

Jmo, but bush is not as good as foster and while he might be faster and more springy, he lacks in other areas that make foster a better back. Vision, patience, strength, balance, pass blocking and having a variety of ways to hurt you. Sweet enough to juke you out of your shoes, big and strong enough to run through tackles, great hand out of the backfield.

Ahmad Bradshaw is a better rb than Reggie bush. Frank gore, McFadden, Charles, mojo, unmotivated Chris Johnson...he'll I'd take most of the leagues starting backs and some back ups over bush. I'd take everyone of our backs all the way to grimes on the practice squad over bush.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

I'm strictly and purposely avoiding the obvious argument that is there to be had with regards to the system that the Texans operate in... Its the reason why M.S. never was able to find his "Terrell Davis or Clinton Portis" ever again.. The System makes Ben Tate look like a feature back.. So, in my opinion, Tate is no different than Thomas.

What most don't understand about the "system" is that when you have an exceptional talent, they put up great numbers and their talent supersedes the system (i.e. Terrell Davis, Clinton Portis, Arian Foster, Michael Crabtree at Texas Tech) So I'm giving Foster his props. I also feel that Bush has exceptional talent. 2011 was the 1st time he was given consistent carries from traditional formations and he proved he could handle it...he actually did it at USC as well. They also ran a Pro-style offense (Lot of I-Formation, Ace, Off-set I). In New Orleans, he never got that opportunity.. look at how they are using the trio of backs there now..

My point is that Both teams have two exceptional talents and two decent #2 backs.

Thus, a push

Okay... I get it.

Our UnDrafted Free Agent is equivalent to Miami's number 2 overall pick/Heismann Trophy winner... (oh my bad... he had to give that back, didn't he? )

[Texn4life]

That would be like saying the QB matchup between the Colts and Patriots this year would be a wash or would favor Luck because he's the more exceptional TALENT. May be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.

[Jackie Chiles]

EmDiggy, I love watching your previews every week but Ben Tate is waaaaay better than you are giving him credit for. He runs so angry, one of the most entertaining runners in the league, even more so than Foster imo. Someday he's going to be the feature back somewhere else and that man is going to put up some 1500 yard seasons, barring injury of course. System be damned.

[Speedy]

Originally Posted by Rey

Wow.

Reggie bush is not = to Arian foster and I can't believe you are trying to make that argument. You are using explosiveness as your argument and that's just one aspect to being a rb.

Arian is bigger, has better vision, has a better feel for running the ball and he's still explosive enough to gash teams for really long runs.

Reggie is more "explosive" than a lot of rb's in the league but that doesn't make him better.

I'll grant you that the offensive system and talent help Arian more than what bush has in Miami, but Reggie couldnt even be special in new Orleans in an offense that was PERFECT for his skill set.

And now you want the texans world to take you seriously when you say that bush, the other guy and rookie Lamar miller are equal to what we field on Sundays? Gtfo.

Arian is an elite back in the league. Period.

I'd take quite a few backfields over the dlolphins.
The dlolphins backfield is not as good as a lot of teams in the NFL and now they are supposed to be a "wash" with one of the best, if not the best?

Stop it.

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

You are comparing numbers...not talent.

So, by your account, Emmitt Smith was better than Gayle Sayers or to a lesser extent Bo Jackson? (hint: there's no wrong answer because its all opinion)

Yeah, there is a wrong answer. And you've got it. Please read bolded above, especially the red, for the right answer.

You missed the boat on that one Diggy. Maybe numbers lie, but whatever you're looking at is stealing your money and running off with your wife.

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

Bush is more explosive than Foster, but Foster is more powerful.

Its a wash honestly and unbiasedly

You've re-defined the words "wash, "honestly", and "unbiasedly" in one sentence. Only the most diehard Reggie Bush lover would make that assertion. I take that back. Kim Kardashian would pick Arian Foster.

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

You are comparing numbers...not talent.

Define "talent"? Why doesn't this "talent" ever translate to the football field?

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Miami doesn't even enter the equation for me.

I think Miami's backfield would be considered for the bottom 10 in the league. I'm being honest and unbiased, because I could give a rat's arse about the Dolphins.

Originally Posted by EmDiggy

My point is that Both teams have two exceptional talents and two decent #2 backs.

Thus, a push

Foster has proven on the field to be far superior to Bush. Tate has proven to be far superior to Thomas (this may be the bigger joke). The Fins backfield isn't in the same galaxy as the Texans.

Originally Posted by infantrycak

I know how you hate numbers (foolish assertion to begin with) but exactly how is Bush more explosive?

Bush - 6 years in the league - 17 runs over 20 yards, 3 over 40 yards.

Foster - 3 years in the league - 20 runs over 20 yards, 5 over 40 yards (with almost 100 less carries).

I was going to post this, so I will just add that Foster has (4) 40+ receptions to Bush's 3. In 210 fewer catches.

I'm scratching my head on this one. I would expect a post like this from a hardcore Dolphin fan or a Bush jocker (if there are actually anymore out there). But not a student of the game.