Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

[Rey]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Biggest reception in Texans history? Good grief you guys overrate Houston Athletes to such a high degree for being lovable guys at times.

The funny thing about the biggest catch in texans history thing is that Yates threw him the ball so he effectively had the biggest throw in texans history...

I don't see many people giving Yates a pass on his shortcomings because of it.

Eric Winston blocked on that play. It was the biggest pass blocking play I'm texans history.

We cut him.

Jacoby drew the pi call that led to that play. That was the biggest pi call in texans history.

We cut him too.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by eriadoc

If they asked him to take a pay cut and then relegated him to backup and/or spot duty, that would mesh better with some of the arguments I'm seeing against Walter. Personally, I just get the feel that they were up against some hard economic realities and they targeted him as a guy that they really wanted to keep but felt like he was making a little too much. I don't read from it that he's on his way out because of it. He may be on his way out, but that'll be because Jean and Martin steps up to his level, not because Walter steps down to anyone else's level.

As always, JMO.

I hear you.

I don't agree, but I understand what you're saying.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

Posey as #2. What have u seen so far from him to come up with that ?

He's been about as absent from the offense as our current #2

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by beerlover

If you want fantasy football numbers you will be sadly disappointed, I know I've been there. There in lies the confusion because he is still out there playing hard, doing the little things like blocking assignments & in general a pain in the a$$ for the other team. If the younger WR finally step up & take some pressure off Andre then it will also help Walter because the passing game will open up more

I get that, & I appreciate that. However, when the #1 goes down, or can't make the game for whatever reason, we need someone to step up. doesn't make sense to me to expect the slot receiver to be that guy, or the unproven rookies.

[Carr Bombed]

Originally Posted by DocBar

OMG!!!! KW didin't make a catch in PS!!!! PANIC BUTTON, PANIC BUTTON!!!!

Seriously, do you really think Kubiak is gonna start anyone else on opening weekend? KW only made the biggest reception in Texan's history' with the last second TD grab against Cinci, that secured our 1st ever playoff berth.

Yes that catch out does Billy Miller's TD grab against the Cowpie's way back in '02

OMG!!!! I don't remember anybody freaking out aboult his performance this PS! Or touching the panic button because of that. Plenty have people have talked about his diminishing productive over the last few seasons... REGULAR SEASONS.

And what the heck does one catch have to do with someone holding on to or being gauranteed a roster spot? So now Kevin Walter is rewarded a lifetime spot as a starter because he caught a ball on a simple slant? That catch doesn't gaurantee him anything. and I hate to break this to you, but that was not the biggest reception in Texans history. LOL it wasn't even the most impressive catch in that game. It was one of the most memorable plays in Texans history, but go ask David Tyree what that entitles you to.

Whether he starts week 1 or not isn't even the point.. the point is Houston can greatly upgrade at the position and whether that takes place week 1 or week 10 I'm rooting for one of these kids to suplant Walter.. and no, that doesn't mean that I'm looking for "fantasy football stats" from the position.. it means I want a #2 WR who can be a pinch #1 if we need him to be in case AJ goes down... Walter can still have a role on this team, it just shouldn't be as a #2 anymore.

[Corrosion]

Originally Posted by Carr Bombed

: I'm rooting for one of these kids to suplant Walter.

Bottom line - Me Too.


If someone can do his job better .... go get it. Take it. That makes this team better.

[417Texan]

I think the 2nd wideout issue sometimes is being be made to much a of a issue at times.

[Carr Bombed]

Originally Posted by 417Texan

I think the 2nd wideout issue sometimes is being be made to much a of a issue at times.

That tends to happen when your #1 has had trouble playing a 16 game schedule in recent years. It's about quality of depth.

[eriadoc]

Originally Posted by Carr Bombed

it means I want a #2 WR who can be a pinch #1 if we need him to be in case AJ goes down...

What a lot of us are trying to get you to understand is you're not going to get that as long as Kubiak is the coach. If AJ goes down, the #2 WR - whoever it is - is going to continue doing the exact same stuff they were doing. They are not going to step up and fill AJ's role. That is very simply the system that Kubiak runs. Whoever is listed as AJ's backup (Andre Davis, Jacoby Jones in the past, for example) is the one they expect to step up and fill that role. You don't have to agree with it or even like it, but if you don't come to accept it, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. The #2 WR on this team will NOT be the guy that steps up and fills the role of AJ if he goes down.

As I said above, I want Jean in the #2 role, largely because I agree with you in terms of what I want from a #2 WR. I want that more traditional setup. Kubiak doesn't, apparently. He has come out and said it repeatedly.

[Carr Bombed]

Originally Posted by eriadoc

What a lot of us are trying to get you to understand is you're not going to get that as long as Kubiak is the coach. If AJ goes down, the #2 WR - whoever it is - is going to continue doing the exact same stuff they were doing. They are not going to step up and fill AJ's role. That is very simply the system that Kubiak runs. Whoever is listed as AJ's backup (Andre Davis, Jacoby Jones in the past, for example) is the one they expect to step up and fill that role. You don't have to agree with it or even like it, but if you don't come to accept it, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. The #2 WR on this team will NOT be the guy that steps up and fills the role of AJ if he goes down.

As I said above, I want Jean in the #2 role, largely because I agree with you in terms of what I want from a #2 WR. I want that more traditional setup. Kubiak doesn't, apparently. He has come out and said it repeatedly.

It's not about just filling Andre's role and picking up all his responsibilities. You can have a receiver opposite Andre who has the ability to step up and put up #1 type production in his role and it really doesn't have anything to do with Kubaik, because Kubiak already had that type of duo in Rod Smith and McCaffery. This doesn't have anything to do with Kubiak's system, it has to do with the lack of talent we've had opposite Andre throughout his entire career.

[RunninRaven]

Didn't David Tyree retire of his own free will?

[euro-Texan]

With Dre's recent injuries, I would feel a whole lot better having Walter's eperiance on the field in case of another injury, but I do feel he should slide over throughout the game to transition in the new blood. I can't imagine he will be on this team next year once some of these new guys have a season of game experiance under their belts, but he is good insurance as a player who knows the system.

[Carr Bombed]

Originally Posted by RunninRaven

Didn't David Tyree retire of his own free will?

After he was cut from NY and nobody else picked him up. To be fair though.. he was battling injuries.

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

When you subscribe to NFL Rewind, you get all the games from last year, too.
With the all-22 view and one end zone view on top of the normal broadcast view.

I did.
And I've seen Walter get open a pretty fair number of time but the QB didn't look his way (he was not the first read). Sometimes the first read was not open but the QBs forced the ball there while Walter was open. To be fair, sometimes the QBs didn't have enough time to go to the second read.

Yes, Walter did run his good shares of deep routes that pull the safety over such that the QB would go to the underneath receiver.

And yes, Walter was used to block a lot.
Even on passing plays, many times they called on him to block the back side DE or OLB on play action fake.
After he threw the cut block he would get up and started his route.
By then, the QB already found a target.

I remember for sure though, that one year (not last year), I had seen Walter got a catch out of that situation.

Walter is not going anywhere until another guy shows he can do all those things.

Great post, man, and BINGO on your last point.

Kevin Walter's value to this team does not show up on a stat sheet. Fantasy football and Madden are influencing fans in ways that appear to be less than positive, especially when stat sheets become the be all/end all of "insight" and knowledge.

Kubiak is widely considered to be one of the best offensive minds in the game right now.

But, according to many here, they could do a much better job.

However, the simple fact is that they do not understand the fundamentals of his offense. He does not have a "shark's mouth" offense where the #2 WR moves up if #1 goes down. It's not that simple.

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

^ That's all well and good, but if he's so great, then why did they ask him to cut his salary in half from 3 million to 1.5 this year? Apparently he didn't think he could get more elsewhere, or maybe winning and being a Texan are more important to him. In any case, I don't think Rick is going to ask OD, Manning, Myers, or Antonio to take a paycut without an extension.

[piggybacking your post]

I do not think that salaries are always indicative of value to a team, especially a franchise in cap trouble.

Arian Foster took less money than the market would have offered him. Does that somehow diminish his talent and value to the team?

Perhaps Walter knew that this offense is designed so that a guy with his particular skill set would be #2, while other teams would not utilize him in the same way and he'd be #3 or #4 on another team's roster.

The NFL is not a one size fits all with schemes. What other teams do has little bearing on our team's designed plays.

Gotta' have some faith in Kubiak when it comes to the offense. He's not perfect, but he's damn good enough to deserve some confidence in him.

Originally Posted by The Medic01

I'd much rather have a WR who an score and make plays then a guy who can block.

That is a great idea!! You should send your resume to bob.mcnair@houstontexans.com. I'm sure he will respond and force Coach Kubiak to make you his offensive coordinator.

Or, if you don't like the way our offense is desiged, there are 31 other teams to choose from that might play to your preferred style.

BTW, I'm being sarcastic, so no offense (no pun intended). I just find all this armchair coaching to be humorous.

Originally Posted by Fiddler

I get that, & I appreciate that. However, when the #1 goes down, or can't make the game for whatever reason, we need someone to step up. doesn't make sense to me to expect the slot receiver to be that guy, or the unproven rookies.

Again, study Kubiak's offense and how the #2 WR works in it. I doubt we ever have a #2 that just moves to the other side and takes over for #1 when they are out, at least the way Kubiak's offense is designed right now.

I will laugh when Walter finally retires/gets cut and Kubiak finds another WR just like him to fill that #2 spot. Then everyone can wring their hands over that dude. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Carr Bombed

It's not about just filling Andre's role and picking up all his responsibilities. You can have a receiver opposite Andre who has the ability to step up and put up #1 type production in his role and it really doesn't have anything to do with Kubaik, because Kubiak already had that type of duo in Rod Smith and McCaffery. This doesn't have anything to do with Kubiak's system, it has to do with the lack of talent we've had opposite Andre throughout his entire career.

At the age of 30, Walter had recorded 193 catches (60, 53, 51, 39) in the last 4 years.
At the same age, McCaffrey had recorded 196 catches (39, 48, 65, 64).

Before that, Walter had his best year with 65 catches.
McCaffrey had 49 (He was with another team; that's why I used the stats from those 4 years.)

...

Furthermore, the make-up of teams change from year to year.
Go back and look at the time McCaffrey was with the Broncos and compare it with the time Walter spent with the Texans.

The Broncos rarely had a decent #3 and #4.
They seldom had a RB that was efficient catching passes out of the backfield.
(Also compare the number of attempts the QBs throw from year to year.)

All these factors added up to give McCaffrey more catches in the later year (after the age of 30).
He would spend 5 more years with the Broncos.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

He could have tried to squeeze it into Martin, but it probably wouldn't have been a completion. I doubt it would have been an INT, but it would have been a contested catch for sure. That safety was on him and watching Schaub the whole play, just waiting to pounce on the ball. On 3rd and 7 with only 4 rushers, it's tough to find an open man, but Schaub made the right call by waiting for someone to get open. A clean pocket made this happen.

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Exactly what I saw after combining several different view.

Just a technical correction.
The "safety" you mentioned was the CB Brock #26.
The extra (third) safety was the one who bumped KMart before going out to the flat to cover OD.
The other two safeties, together with the SAM, formed a triangle around Walter in the middle.

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

The more I look at this, the more I think it's just excellent play design. Playing that kind of zone against that particular play is destined to fail, I think.

Originally Posted by Corrosion

Look again , he also has a LBer #54 playing underneath him #26 is headed in his direction originally but turns tail to Matrin and recovers .... 4 dudes covering Walter.


It was that LBers lack of zone integrity that uncovered Jean.

There's one thing (IMHO) that really "sells" this play. Watch how, at the snap and for a sec or so after, Matt Schaub kinda stares down K.W. That makes the defense "lean" or favor the direction K.W. is going; left to right. By the time Jean wanders across the field from right to left, the defense is kinda caught peeking at K.W. and has no chance to cover Jean in time to prevent the TD.
Just my

[Blake]

Good grief. Unless we have an all-pro at every starter position people are always going to be clamoring for the backup. I like the job that Kevin has done, and hope that he can get a few more scores this season to silence the naysayers.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

[piggybacking your post]

I do not think that salaries are always indicative of value to a team, especially a franchise in cap trouble.

Arian Foster took less money than the market would have offered him. Does that somehow diminish his talent and value to the team?

Perhaps Walter knew that this offense is designed so that a guy with his particular skill set would be #2, while other teams would not utilize him in the same way and he'd be #3 or #4 on another team's roster.

The NFL is not a one size fits all with schemes. What other teams do has little bearing on our team's designed plays.

Gotta' have some faith in Kubiak when it comes to the offense. He's not perfect, but he's damn good enough to deserve some confidence in him.

If Arian Foster takes a 50% paycut next year, then yeah I'll speculate on his perceived value to the team. You just don't see this happen much in the NFL, which is why I'm bringing it up. It's abnormal, and if Kevin Walter is worth 3 million a year to other teams, then I would expect him to get cut and go elsewhere. He nearly signed with Baltimore the last time he hit UFA.

Instead, I think what happened is that Rick called him into his office and explained the situation to him. We are cap-strapped, and his 3.5 million is not guaranteed this year, so Rick probably said they were planning on cutting him unless they can work out some arrangement instead. Kevin's agent negotiates a bit and they land on the 2 million number, saving the team 1.5. Why Kevin did that, I don't know, but it happened, and it's more than I can say they did for Eric Winston's situation.

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by Carr Bombed

So we have a entire thread of excuse making to look forward to..

Look you can psychoanalye all the game tape you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. I only care about one thing.. production. 39 catches for 474 yards when your all world receiver is standing on the sideline in street clothes during 9 games is not good enough. And stop acting like the reason why he doesn't produce more is because how we use him.. the guy had back to back 800 yard seasons in '07 and '08. (899 yds) His production has nose dived since... hence why he was asked to take a pay cut.

Well thank you T.O and Keyshawn Johnson. I will take wins and guys who are devoted to the team concept. In 2008 Owen Daniels had 70 catches for 862 yrds and has not come near that since. He needs to be replaced by Logan Brock, I mean by your standards it is all about numbers and since this player is declining he needs to be replaced by an unproven guy who has caught a few passes in preseason and in (Que Allen Iverson) PRACTICE. Part of why Walter does not produce you madden numbers is age and how he is used. Oh and he is more a possession type and will never give you those huge numbers.

Not only does Walter block well but he runs perfect routes. He is always where he is supposed to be and when he is supposed to be there. This is why he is able to draw defenders away from others so they can make the catch for example see video posted.

Oh and one other thing, I am damn glad our coaches do analyze the game tapes versus checking how many fantasy points he put up each game.


OK back to lurking

[Carr Bombed]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

At the age of 30, Walter had recorded 193 catches (60, 53, 51, 39) in the last 4 years.
At the same age, McCaffrey had recorded 196 catches (39, 48, 65, 64).

Before that, Walter had his best year with 65 catches.
McCaffrey had 49 (He was with another team; that's why I used the stats from those 4 years.)

...

Furthermore, the make-up of teams change from year to year.
Go back and look at the time McCaffrey was with the Broncos and compare it with the time Walter spent with the Texans.

The Broncos rarely had a decent #3 and #4.
They seldom had a RB that was efficient catching passes out of the backfield.
(Also compare the number of attempts the QBs throw from year to year.)

All these factors added up to give McCaffrey more catches in the later year (after the age of 30).
He would spend 5 more years with the Broncos.

talk about manipulating stats... Did I ever say anything about McCaffery's age compared to Walter's? Nope. What I was doing was debunking the myth that Kubiak's system makes it impossible to have a "batman and robin" type duo at the WR position.

For three straight seasons (1998-2000) which covered the span of two championships the broncos had two 1,000 yard receivers. Here are the type of #s Smith and McCaffrey were able to have under Kubiak.

Rod Smith
1998- 1,222 rec yards
1999- 1,020 rec yards
2000- 1,602 rec yards

Ed McCaffrey
1998- 1,053 rec yards
1999- 1,018 rec yards
2000- 1,317 rec yards

That's three straight seasons that two WRs have had seasons unlike any season Walter has been able to have... and they did it on the same field.

P.S.

Will people stop the "Madden and fantasy football" crap. It has nothing to do with my opinion.

1. I don't play Madden... really don't play video games.
2. I have only played three seasons of FF and haven't played this last 2 seasons.

My opinion is strictly based on what I see other teams trotting out at #2. They actually have talent that eventually can grow to be their #1. Just look inside our own division. The Colts went from Harrison to Wayne and to Garcon. Look at the steelers, Chargers, Packers, and so on.

The fact that Walter is the best guy that we have ever had behind AJ just illustrates how poorly of a job we've done at developing talent behind him during his career and that's not even a knock on Walter.