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Old 08-17-2012   #61
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
If it came down to it, I'd keep Barwin over Schaub. Use the money to extend Cush and have money left over for Watt. Build a ferocious menacing D(like Blitzberg, the Ravens, or the Giants of the past) and create a solid offense based on running the ball, short west coast style passes, and lots of TE play. Don't need a top 10 QB for that, just a top 20, and certainly Yates can be that.
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.
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Old 08-17-2012   #62
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.
The record with Yates wasn't 3-3 in the regular season.

Leinart gave Yates the lead 17-10 against the Jags; we ended up winning by 7. A tie here is basically a win for Yates, I would think !?!


Yates then had 2 wins against 2 solid teams: Falcons and Bengals before losing 2 (Panthers and Colts - with the refs giving the game to the Colts.)

Yates then handed Delhome a 7-0 lead in the final game.

I don't know how to settle Yates win-loss record, to be honest, LOL!

...

Yates was 1-1 in the play-offs, which is more play-off experience than Schaub ever had.
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Old 08-17-2012   #63
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.
I disagree.

Ravens won a Superbowl in spite of Kyle Boller. Our defense can be just as good as the Ravens with Wade at the helm. We are stacked at runningback too. We may lose Tate, but I have confidence we can find another #2 not as good, but better than most.#2s. We still have Dre and OD and a better then most o-line. I think we just need a middle of the pack QB.

I am not endorsing Yates to takeover, but it was his rookie year without an offseason because of the lock-out. Just something to consider.

I think our team has become so stacked in so many positions we need an average QB, not a better than average but not top tier QB if it means sacrificing talent on our Defense.

Is Yates that average QB? I dunno but I would bet on Barwin over Schaub.
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Old 08-17-2012   #64
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.
Yates = counting playoffs 4-2 with Wade.

0-2 without Wade.

Including losing to the 2-14 Colts without Wade.

It aint gonna be as easy this yr. But if Schaub and AJ stay healthy they can do it.
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Old 08-17-2012   #65
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Barwin has had a season ending injury that cost him basically an entire season. He, of all people, might be very aware of how quickly an injury could trash his hopes of a large free agency contract.
I think they will offer him something fair, and he will accept.
If he were to sustain a freak injury like the previous one, it would cost him millions of dollars.
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Old 08-17-2012   #66
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

Barwin > Schaub? Seriously? Yes, it would be awesome if we could keep Barwin, but if he asks for a huge deal that we can't match without hurting our team in other areas then it's not worth it. It would be a loss, but not as significant as people think.

We played with a hurt DeMeco Ryans and without Mario Williams for most of last season, and did fine. Losing Barwin wouldn't set us back too much, especially since we have Brooks Reed and Mercilus as depth. Worst case scenario, Reed/Mercilus takes over Barwin's position and the Texans sign a veteran to back them up. Is that so bad?
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Old 08-17-2012   #67
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

You have to resign him, its hard enough to find pass rushers and Texans fans have bitched for years that we don't have any and some of you guys are suggesting we let 2 walk in consecutive years. Thats not smart the biggest key to a successful NFL team is protecting the QB on offense and getting after the QB on defense.
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Old 08-17-2012   #68
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Barwin has had a season ending injury that cost him basically an entire season. He, of all people, might be very aware of how quickly an injury could trash his hopes of a large free agency contract.
I think they will offer him something fair, and he will accept.
If he were to sustain a freak injury like the previous one, it would cost him millions of dollars.
Schaub sustaining a freak injury would have a similar affect. Obviously if the contract is ridiculous you don't sign him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanSam View Post
Barwin > Schaub? Seriously? Yes, it would be awesome if we could keep Barwin, but if he asks for a huge deal that we can't match without hurting our team in other areas then it's not worth it. It would be a loss, but not as significant as people think.

We played with a hurt DeMeco Ryans and without Mario Williams for most of last season, and did fine. Losing Barwin wouldn't set us back too much, especially since we have Brooks Reed and Mercilus as depth. Worst case scenario, Reed/Mercilus takes over Barwin's position and the Texans sign a veteran to back them up. Is that so bad?
Agreed and good points. And if Barwin hadn't shown up it would have hurt the team. And Demeco was playing such a limited role. If anything, it showed us we didn't need a high paid NFL DE but an average paid LB. And Mercilus is about as proven as Kareem Jackson his rookie year at this point.
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Old 08-17-2012   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.
Shaub is a good player, but this offense is awesome.

I dont think schaub is close to those guys. I think it you put any of those guys in this offense, especially Rodgers, they might be even better than they currently are.
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Old 08-17-2012   #70
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Teams are not built on developing players, getting one or two years of production out of them and then having them walk. You want to pick wisely sign them for their first two contracts and then decide whether to let them go. Key word is "wisely". If we can sign Barwin team friendly great, but Barwin has right to say no to any offer. No way can you blanket all players with signing them to second contract before deciding to "allow" them to leave.



Geez you are getting like GP with your crystal ball prognostications, just more terse. So they are trying to do a contract with Conner because they no longer want Matt? [BSome of my prognostications come true , some do not. Part of my fun is to be willing to voice my opinion. If I am terse because I do not accept your opinion would you not therefore be terse for not accepting mine or are you the only one that can voice an opinion?][/b]



Yeah 'cuz top QB's just drop out of the woodwork from later rounds. Top 10 last year on QB rating - 6 1sts, 1 2nd (1st pick of the 2nd), 1 3rd (Schaub), 1 6th (Brady) and one undrafted (Romo). Just because you have a top 10 QB or any other position does not mean you give him what he wants. Again Matt has right to say no to any offer. Matt could get a Mario top deal and chose to leave regardless what Smith offers.

People are getting awful cavalier between a huge demonstrated talent gap between Schaub and Yates. As Smith will not negotiate with Matt until after the season would not the talent gap possibly reduce after this season?

Frankly folks are getting way to giddy entirely talking about dumping key pieces of a team left and right after they have made the playoffs once while predicting they are going to go onto a dynasty of revolving talent. One more time, Barwin while a "key" can be replaced just as Mario was with a roster player. Just because some players "revolve" does not necessarily mean the team cannot move forward.
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Old 08-17-2012   #71
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.
You do not think that Yates with another season behind him with this team plus all current roster players one season better cannot be more than a 8-8 leader? If that is your position, I totally disagree.
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Old 08-17-2012   #72
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Barwin has had a season ending injury that cost him basically an entire season. He, of all people, might be very aware of how quickly an injury could trash his hopes of a large free agency contract.
I think they will offer him something fair, and he will accept.
If he were to sustain a freak injury like the previous one, it would cost him millions of dollars.
I too am hoping Barwin gets this plus he hears the praise that Merci is getting. I hope the other OLBs go beserk with sacks tomorrow and Monday we hear Barwin signs a Chris Myers type deal:

3/16/2011: Signed a four-year, $25 million contract. The deal contains $14 million guaranteed, including an $8 million signing bonus. 2012: $2.5 million, 2013: $3.5 million, 2014: $5 million, 2015: $6 million. http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3373/chris-myers
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Old 08-17-2012   #73
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by texanhead08 View Post
You have to resign him, its hard enough to find pass rushers and Texans fans have bitched for years that we don't have any and some of you guys are suggesting we let 2 walk in consecutive years. Thats not smart the biggest key to a successful NFL team is protecting the QB on offense and getting after the QB on defense.
Well last two drafts say you are incorrect. Reed in second and Mercilus appears to be another Watt type impact rookie player. IIRC, we have not let any pass rushers go in last two years. Mario refused to sign as a FA. Who is the other pass rusher you are speaking of?
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Old 08-18-2012   #74
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Shaub is a good player, but this offense is awesome.

I dont think schaub is close to those guys. I think it you put any of those guys in this offense, especially Rodgers, they might be even better than they currently are.
I wasnt saying Schaub is on the level of that short list .... But that he's as good or better than everybody not on that short list.


As for Rodgers (or one of the other short list QB's) being better in this offense , I think its quite possible and highly likely.
What Kubiak does with route combinations and play design creates natural windows of opportunity for recievers. Couple that with the abiltiy of an above average player .... you often get #80 trotting around in the secondary and no defender within 10 yards when three guy's are responsible for him.
One of those elite QB's would most definately exploit that.

Sure , I'd trade Schaub for Brady , Brees , Rodgers or Manning ..... but Im not so sure there is another QB out there that I would say that about.

Quote:
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You do not think that Yates with another season behind him with this team plus all current roster players one season better cannot be more than a 8-8 leader? If that is your position, I totally disagree.

I dont know ... Yates did an admirable job last season , but Schaub had the offense at a whole different level.
Does Yates have potential to get better ?? Yes.
Does he have the potential to be the starter at some point in the future ? Sure.
When ? I dont know.

Is he more capable than Schaub today ?? I dont think so. This team has a Superbowl or bust mentality.


Schaub gives them their best shot at reaching that goal.

Having Yates , after the experience he gained last year is a hell of a luxury tho.
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Old 08-18-2012   #75
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Yates = counting playoffs 4-2 with Wade.

0-2 without Wade.

Including losing to the 2-14 Colts without Wade.

It aint gonna be as easy this yr. But if Schaub and AJ stay healthy they can do it.
steelb, I don't think that loss had as much to do with Wade being out as it did with the horrific officiating. That's the only game I still have from last year and it's as one sided a game as I've ever watched. They simply neutered JJ Watt with baseless 15 yard penalties to keep Colt drives alive. Had we not been competing with the refs (who you can't beat) we'd have won that game hands down.
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Old 08-18-2012   #76
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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steelb, I don't think that loss had as much to do with Wade being out as it did with the horrific officiating.
The Texans ultra-conservative play calling had more to do with the result. They should have put the lowly Colts away long before that penalty filled final drive.
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Old 08-18-2012   #77
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Yeah, Mario was gone regardless of how much or how well he played, the Texans couldn't have given him a competitive deal anyways. If he had remained healthy, he could have kept Barwin from exploding and getting on the entire league's radar. Aside from finally seeing Mario excel in a great defense, it would have been nice for him to temper Barwin's production and reduce his asking price in 2013. Oh well, can't win 'em all.
I brought this up from another thread. It got me thinking. Is Connor on the radar of the entire league?

I don't think so. I think he may have raised a few ears, but he's only put up average pass rushing stats against some pretty poor offenses. The defense was elite..... Connor was a big part of that, but he's not elite.

I'm thinking we need to sign him this year, because if he blows up this year, he'll command a lot of money, but based on his performance to date, & a conservative expcetation of future performance, we should be able to sign him to a decent...... not elite contract.

Similar to what Duane Brown got. Had we not signed Brown & he was recognized next season for being the elite LT we know he is, there would be teams willing to make him the highest paid LT.
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Old 08-18-2012   #78
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Mercilus is the key, he gives the Texans all kinds of leverage when dealing with
Barwin. If they work out something before the season starts (or during the season notwithstanding claims by the Texans they don't negotiate contracts during the regular season), it's going to be on very favorable terms for the organization.
If that were the case, we never would have drafted Merci in the first round. Barwin just came off a great year, Reed came off a great year... You've got two starters who should only get better at OLB.

Plus we've got Braman who looks like he's got pottential. We could have drafted someone in the third or 4th to address depth & use the first on a WR.

We drafted someone in the first....... the NCAA sack leader, because we need someone who can play at Brooks' & Barwin's level right away.

If we lose Barwin this offseason, it will be the same thing. Unless Braman steps up.
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Old 08-18-2012   #79
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Default Re: Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.
I give Schaub a hard time. But, the only thing that separates Schaub from those guys is wins. Had he stayed healthy, took us into the post season, people would see him differently.

Too much credit, for wins & losses. That's the ire of QBs in this league.
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Old 08-18-2012   #80
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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
I give Schaub a hard time. But, the only thing that separates Schaub from those guys is wins. Had he stayed healthy, took us into the post season, people would see him differently.

Too much credit, for wins & losses. That's the ire of QBs in this league.
I disagree with that .... Schaubs arm doesnt compare to that of Brady or Rodgers and he lacks the mobility of Brees .... Manning is on another level if healthy , arguably the best QB Ive watched in my lifetime certainly top 3 and Ive seen a lot of QB's come and go.

Would wins , especially in the post season elevate him in the minds of others .... absolutely. But there's more than just whats in the W/L column that seperates those elite QB's from the field , Schaub included.

I put Schaub in the "best of the rest" category.
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