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Old 08-14-2012   #21
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

Romo is great...till december. Sure he has fantastic stats cowfans love to dwell on but come a crucial game/play he nuts up. Dude has made a living making a hall of fame play followed by plays an undrafted qb would make.
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Old 08-15-2012   #22
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Both Mannings are badass QBs and I consider both to be elite and destined for the HoF.

If I had to choose just one, though, knowing what I know, I'd pick Eli. Dude is clutch, and with two rings and two SB MVPs, he's not a fluke.
Not me.

I would go with Peyton. You always have that chance to win with Peyton behind center.
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Old 08-15-2012   #23
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I'll take Peyton over Eli any day, regardless of their stats. There is a massive difference between the two of them when it comes to playing QB. A great coach will do well with either of them though.

I'd take Romo over Schaub as well. I'm not saying there is a huge gap between the two, but Romo has just as much to his resume as Schaub does, with fewer injuries. He doesn't have the help of an Arian Foster on his team and his O-line is significantly worse. He finally gets a quality LT on the team this year, and then he posts a personal best 102 passer rating. Coincidence? Maybe...

Anyways, I think Romo is better than he is perceived to be around here. Partly because he's the QB of our rival, and partly because people just don't like him.
As a fan of the Cowboys and Texans, I can say (IMHO) that Romo >>>>>>>>> Schaub.

No sane person would take Fragile Mattie over Romosexual.

Better talent, better toughness, leadership, and more respect by his peers and opponents.

I would take Eli over both though, pretty much just because of him being clutch.
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Old 08-15-2012   #24
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
OK maybe this is only terminology but yeah he is kind of a fluke and in saying that I really am not trying to put him down.

But c'mon the signature moment of his first "MVP" performance was a badly thrown pass miraculously caught by a WR who would be deemed not good enough to make the team the next year. That's a fluke.
Fluke like "the catch" or the "immaculate reception".

yeah, crazy play, but Eli was evading defenders like crazy, SHOULD have been sacked and the Patriots won, but we all know that's not how it played out. He never quit. He never let his mistakes get inside his head. He just kept pushing and it was just an amazing clutch performance, like hitting a 3 point shot to win an NBA championship type of thing.

And I think it elevates it even more that he did it with a receiver that was nothing special, not like he had HoF WRs his entire career like his brother.

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
People saying they'd take Eli over Peydon?? Lol!! Talk about being complete prisoners of the moment. Eli isn't even close.

ANd I'm normally the guy that will argue against Peydon when people are trying to act like he is the best around, but Eli has never been an elite player in this league ever. Maybe he can change that notion going forward, but no one was suggesting that he was elite before the playoffs started last season. Hell, the season before last he threw over 20 INT's. Very good QB, but to suggest that he is better than Peydon all of a sudden doesn't even really warrant an argument as far as I'm concerned.
It's an opinion, man. Big deal. You have one, too. Glad you find it humorous.

I think Peyton is one of the greatest QBs ever in many ways, but his post-season record is what it is at the end of the day. The Patriots were his nemesis for most of his career. The same Patriots that his brother beat twice in championship games. Remember that time that Peyton beat an 18-0 team in the Super Bowl? Yeah, I don't remember that, either. But I do remember Peyton throwing a pick 6 in a Super Bowl that cost his team the championship.

Eli is elite regardless if you refuse to recognize it or not. Dude's bust will be in Canton one day. They do not elect chumps into the HoF.

Any particular reason you choose to misspell Peyton's name?

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Not me.

I would go with Peyton. You always have that chance to win with Peyton behind center.
Nothing wrong with picking Peyton, either. I've never ripped on the guy.

I just see something intangible in Eli that goes beyond stats and numbers on paper. Eli has played his whole career in a much tougher division, in an outdoor stadium often in brutal weather conditions, and for a city that chews up athletes and spits them out. I think Eli is a solid cat and I would not be surprised if he wins a third ring before it's all said and done.
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Old 08-15-2012   #25
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Fluke like "the catch" or the "immaculate reception".

yeah, crazy play, but Eli was evading defenders like crazy, SHOULD have been sacked and the Patriots won, but we all know that's not how it played out. He never quit. He never let his mistakes get inside his head. He just kept pushing and it was just an amazing clutch performance, like hitting a 3 point shot to win an NBA championship type of thing.

And I think it elevates it even more that he did it with a receiver that was nothing special, not like he had HoF WRs his entire career like his brother.



It's an opinion, man. Big deal. You have one, too. Glad you find it humorous.

I think Peyton is one of the greatest QBs ever in many ways, but his post-season record is what it is at the end of the day. The Patriots were his nemesis for most of his career. The same Patriots that his brother beat twice in championship games. Remember that time that Peyton beat an 18-0 team in the Super Bowl? Yeah, I don't remember that, either. But I do remember Peyton throwing a pick 6 in a Super Bowl that cost his team the championship.

Eli is elite regardless if you refuse to recognize it or not. Dude's bust will be in Canton one day. They do not elect chumps into the HoF.

Any particular reason you choose to misspell Peyton's name?



Nothing wrong with picking Peyton, either. I've never ripped on the guy.

I just see something intangible in Eli that goes beyond stats and numbers on paper. Eli has played his whole career in a much tougher division, in an outdoor stadium often in brutal weather conditions, and for a city that chews up athletes and spits them out. I think Eli is a solid cat and I would not be surprised if he wins a third ring before it's all said and done.
Yeah, I like what I see in Eli also, he's definetely a winner.
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Old 08-15-2012   #26
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post



It's an opinion, man. Big deal. You have one, too. Glad you find it humorous.
Yes, it is humerous to suggest that Eli is better than Peyton Manning. Even Eli realizes that.

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I think Peyton is one of the greatest QBs ever in many ways, but his post-season record is what it is at the end of the day. The Patriots were his nemesis for most of his career. The same Patriots that his brother beat twice in championship games.
Those were not the same Patriots teams. A lot of the personal changed by the time Eli played them in the SB. The 2nd SB was a completely different team than the ones that Peyton lost to.



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Remember that time that Peyton beat an 18-0 team in the Super Bowl? Yeah, I don't remember that, either.
I completely remember Eli throwing the same type of pick 6 to the Patriots in that game which was a horrible pass that was a floater that Asaunte Samuel dropped. That pass he made should have changed the outcome and it was no different than the pick 6 that Peyton threw to lose the game against the Saints. The only difference was that the Saints player caught it. It doesn't change the huge error that Eli made that should have lost the game for his team. And lets not sit here and act like Eli's greatness got that Giants team to the SB that season either. He made some clutch plays here and there in the playoffs, but it was the Giants defense that carried Eli there if anything. The Giants D line all of a sudden became the most dominant D line of all time as far as the post season goes. You're forgetting a lot of facts here.

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But I do remember Peyton throwing a pick 6 in a Super Bowl that cost his team the championship.
I just mentioned the same type of error Eli made in his Sb which would make them even as far as that goes. And either way, that one play does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Had the Cardinals won the SB against the Steelers, would you be saying that Warner was better than Peyton as well? 3 SB's on two teams and he at least had like two MVP's to go with that. Eli has nothing like that going for him.

A much better discussion would be Eli vs. Warner.

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Eli is elite regardless if you refuse to recognize it or not. Dude's bust will be in Canton one day. They do not elect chumps into the HoF.
Elite is only for a few QB's. Top 3 to 4 at best, and Eli is no way in hell better than Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton. I'll put him in a class with Big Ben who he has similar numbers to and similar success in the SB. That's a fair assessment.

Actually change that "better comparison" from Warner to Big Ben vs. Eli. Both guys benefited from having extremely top notch defenses that were the bigger reasons why they went to the SB and made some pretty strong clutch plays here and there.



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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Any particular reason you choose to misspell Peyton's name?
I don't really care.



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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Nothing wrong with picking Peyton, either. I've never ripped on the guy.

I just see something intangible in Eli that goes beyond stats and numbers on paper. Eli has played his whole career in a much tougher division, in an outdoor stadium often in brutal weather conditions, and for a city that chews up athletes and spits them out. I think Eli is a solid cat and I would not be surprised if he wins a third ring before it's all said and done.
This here is a fair assessment. However, you'd have to give Romo the same slack other than his lack of SB rings. Romo plays in that same division, deals with just as much media criticisms, and puts up similar numbers every year, yet no one ever wants to credit Romo who also has to play for Jerry Jones. They just want to beat him down and deny the same types of conditions he is up against.


Let me ask you this? Are you going to suggest that Eli is somehow better than Tom Brady to now since "his team" beat Brady's team in two SB's? I hope not.
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Old 08-15-2012   #27
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
Yes, it is humerous to suggest that Eli is better than Peyton Manning. Even Eli realizes that.
Please check my words. I NEVER said or even implied that Eli was a better QB than Peyton. I just said that I would choose Eli based upon what I know right now.

I think Dan Marino was a better QB than John Elway. But I'd still choose Elway for my team.

Think of it this way: QBs do not operate in a vacuum on a one man team. Peyton is easily considered 1a or 1b in the argument of greatest QBs of this generation with Brady. However, that comes with a price tag, and in a league of finite resources, you have to pay the price tag for these QBs which then financially limits you at other positions. I think Peyton costs too much for teams to put out consistently deep rosters, which is why his defenses have historically suffered as a result. Brady was fortunate in having Belichick, a great defensive coach, as his HC.

Quote:
Those were not the same Patriots teams. A lot of the personal changed by the time Eli played them in the SB. The 2nd SB was a completely different team than the ones that Peyton lost to.
So the 18-0 Patriots sucked? Give me a break man! They were on the verge of being considered the greatest team ever if they won that Super Bowl. It is laughable to even suggest otherwise.

Quote:
Elite is only for a few QB's. Top 3 to 4 at best, and Eli is no way in hell better than Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton. I'll put him in a class with Big Ben who he has similar numbers to and similar success in the SB. That's a fair assessment.
Purely your subjective opinion on defining elite.

Do you think Eli will make the HoF?

I do, and I consider every QB that is inducted to be elite. Just my opinion, but like you, I have a right to it.

Quote:
Actually change that "better comparison" from Warner to Big Ben vs. Eli. Both guys benefited from having extremely top notch defenses that were the bigger reasons why they went to the SB and made some pretty strong clutch plays here and there.
I'd take Big Ben over Peyton, too. *gasp!*

Just like I would take Troy Aikman over Dan Marino, who was clearly a superior QB to almost every QB that ever existed.

My qualifications are different than your qualifications. No big deal. I just don't find your opinions as much a source of humor as you do mine.

Quote:
This here is a fair assessment. However, you'd have to give Romo the same slack other than his lack of SB rings. Romo plays in that same division, deals with just as much media criticisms, and puts up similar numbers every year, yet no one ever wants to credit Romo who also has to play for Jerry Jones. They just want to beat him down and deny the same types of conditions he is up against.
Romo isn't a bad QB, but he's certainly not clutch. It's not about stats, but those critical moments where mistakes define a player. They all make mistakes, and I'm not even suggesting that Eli is somehow perfect or G.O.A.T.

But clearly, the dude has ice water in his veins many times when it matters. Don't be shocked if he wins another ring before it's all said and done. I won't be.

Quote:
Let me ask you this? Are you going to suggest that Eli is somehow better than Tom Brady to now since "his team" beat Brady's team in two SB's? I hope not.
Again, not even suggesting anyone is a better QB than Peyton (or Brady). I'm just saying that between Peyton and Eli, based on what I know today, I'll take Eli on my team. You are free to disagree and that's alright with me.
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Old 08-15-2012   #28
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

Just to add fuel to the fire and yank your chain, Tex:

Quote:
After Two Super Bowl MVPs, Eli Manning Is Hall of Fame Bound. Believe It.

Now, after two Super Bowl rings on the backs of two MVP performances, there is no question that Manning is one of the elite quarterbacks in the game. Yes, he may even become one of the elite quarterbacks of all time.
You will love this part:

Quote:
In fact, he's just the fifth player to win multiple Super Bowl MVP awards, with Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Bart Starr and Tom Brady—three Hall of Famers and a guy who will be in as soon as he's eligible.


p.s. I've never been a huge Eli fan, but as an NFL fanatic, I have to call it like I see it. Eli has proven himself worthy. Sometimes we have to just get over our own self-inflated opinions and try to be objective about analysis.
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Old 08-15-2012   #29
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Please check my words. I NEVER said or even implied that Eli was a better QB than Peyton. I just said that I would choose Eli based upon what I know right now.

I think Dan Marino was a better QB than John Elway. But I'd still choose Elway for my team.
Well I wouldn't put Marino above Elway either. Marino was a better passer, but Elway was a great passer and a complete baller. I've always put Elway up there as possibly a top 3 QB of all time. To me, he was always the best of that era right behind Joe Montana. Pretty much the same way Manning has been the best right behind Tom BRady whom I think is better than any of them.




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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Think of it this way: QBs do not operate in a vacuum on a one man team. Peyton is easily considered 1a or 1b in the argument of greatest QBs of this generation with Brady. However, that comes with a price tag, and in a league of finite resources, you have to pay the price tag for these QBs which then financially limits you at other positions. I think Peyton costs too much for teams to put out consistently deep rosters, which is why his defenses have historically suffered as a result. Brady was fortunate in having Belichick, a great defensive coach, as his HC.
Brady was fortunate yes, but half of his career he has had just an average defense. BRady has made things a lot easier for his defense over the years be scoring so much and making other teams pass in the 2nd half making their opponents scheme predictable.


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So the 18-0 Patriots sucked? Give me a break man! They were on the verge of being considered the greatest team ever if they won that Super Bowl. It is laughable to even suggest otherwise.
When did I ever say that? I never suggested anything like that. I stated that it wasn't the same team that Manning had been losing to all of those years. The 18-0 Patriots is the best team of all time as far as I'm concerned. Everyone was ready and willing to crown them as that when they went into the Sb. I don't think that some miracle play and dropped INT that would have closed the game changes that. That team was superior to any other SB team I've ever seen or studied.



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Purely your subjective opinion on defining elite.
Well what is yours? I mean elite is the best of the best. It can only be a few.



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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Do you think Eli will make the HoF?
I don't know yet. I'm guessing that he probably will. If he doesn't win another SB though, a lot of that will hinge on the fact that his last name is Manning, he played for a team in NY, and the attention from being Peyton's brother. He might win another SB though, because that team is stacked.







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I'd take Big Ben over Peyton, too. *gasp!*
What!? I'm as big of a fan as anyone for Ben, but I simply can't get behind the idea that he would be a better option to have than Manning. You put Manning behind that Steelers defense for all these years, and who knows.



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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Just like I would take Troy Aikman over Dan Marino, who was clearly a superior QB to almost every QB that ever existed.
Marino is up there, but I don't have him in my top 5 honestly.

The more I'm reading from this, it seems that you are basing everything mainly off of rings and not looking at the circumstances as much. Rings are huge for the discussion, but so are numbers, leadership, and the ability to consistently win with different sets of players. That's the biggest reason why Brady amazes me as much as he does along with Elway as well.







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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
But clearly, the dude has ice water in his veins many times when it matters. Don't be shocked if he wins another ring before it's all said and done. I won't be.
I won't be. I was one of the only people that I knew or talked to that picked the Giants to win the SB once the post season started. People told me I was crazy for thinking that they'd beat the Packers last season, but their defense was clicking big time again. I picked them, mainly based off of their defense though. Not Eli's brilliance. Eli being an ex SB winner and a pretty good QB factored into it though.



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Again, not even suggesting anyone is a better QB than Peyton (or Brady). I'm just saying that between Peyton and Eli, based on what I know today, I'll take Eli on my team. You are free to disagree and that's alright with me.

Well I'd say that Peyton has even more ice water running through his veins as well. I mean, he has been to the same amount of SB's and almost won both. Again, Eli made the same mistake that Peyton did to lose to the Saints. The other team just didn't catch the ball and finish it. Same error by the QB though which seems like it would have changed your opinion on this based off of the criteria you seem to be using here. One thing that I have always hated is how so many QB's in history get knocked to far for going all the way to the SB, but slightly coming up short. I'll never take one game and make it change things that much. Going to the SB and losing is still nothing short of phenominal. It seems like people knock a guy down way to much just for not winning it. I couldn't believe that ridiculous stuff I heard people saying about Brady for not winning it last season when he put his team in position to win it. People were acting like he would have been the GOAT bar none had they won, but since Welker dropped a pass and then lost the ball, people were acting like he was some sort of losing QB in the big game or something. It was about as crazy as anything I've ever heard.
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Old 08-15-2012   #30
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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The 18-0 Patriots is the best team of all time as far as I'm concerned. Everyone was ready and willing to crown them as that when they went into the Sb. I don't think that some miracle play and dropped INT that would have closed the game changes that. That team was superior to any other SB team I've ever seen or studied.
Wow. I'm not going to jump in on y'all's QB debate but greatest of all time? I already stated the Giants won on a fluke play but even if the Patriots had completed the perfect season I wouldn't consider them the best any more than I would Miami going undefeated. The competition level counts. For instance the Cowboys first two nineties wins against the Bills - a team which was setting milestones all over the place and was a four in a row SB participant. Has there been another four in a row team after the merger? Strength of win counts as well. To continue the contrast using the same example, the Patriots barely won two SB's on Viniteri's foot. The Cowboys destroyed the Bills. To get to those SB's they beat teams many considered the best teams in the league in San Francisco and Green Bay. Different era and all but I consider that a more dominant team.
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Old 08-15-2012   #31
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Wow. I'm not going to jump in on y'all's QB debate but greatest of all time? I already stated the Giants won on a fluke play but even if the Patriots had completed the perfect season I wouldn't consider them the best any more than I would Miami going undefeated. The competition level counts. For instance the Cowboys first two nineties wins against the Bills - a team which was setting milestones all over the place and was a four in a row SB participant. Has there been another four in a row team after the merger? Strength of win counts as well. To continue the contrast using the same example, the Patriots barely won two SB's on Viniteri's foot. The Cowboys destroyed the Bills. To get to those SB's they beat teams many considered the best teams in the league in San Francisco and Green Bay. Different era and all but I consider that a more dominant team.
There was a very large consensus calling them the best team of all time before the SB played out. They had that game won, and a few miracle plays like you said and a dropped INT that should have closed it makes the only perfect season in the modern day NFL. The Dolphins team only beat a few winning teams that season in the regular season. I don't consider that Phins team even in the top 20 of all time personally.

Going back to the Pats, well they had Tom Brady who pretty much had the best season of all time for a QB. They had the WR that had probably the 2nd best season of all time for a WR. They had a fantastic WR in Welker who worked the inside routes and possession plays. Hell, Stallworth had just came off his best season of his career as a 3rd WR, and Gaffney was nothing to sneaze at that season. That offense was unstoppable and they weren't just beating teams. THey were destroying teams and blowing them out of the stadium. That team had a ton of ex SB winners as well. A lot of them were older at that point, but still solid vets. Seau was on that team to even though he was old. But guys like Harrison, Bruschi, and Vrabel were still there.

That Cowboys team would be a strong team in history to argue with. I'll grant you that. But Aikman wasn't near the QB that Brady was especially that season. Irvin and Harper were not what Moss and Welker were. Emmit Smith trumps the running game though. Dallas had a better defense though.

Personally I'd put that 49ers team that blasted the Broncos out of the water 55-10 as the best argument for the best team other than that Patriots team. They had a really good defense with Roger Craig, Rice, Taylor, Rathman, and Lott. Joe Montana vs. Tom Brady!! That's a match up!
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Old 08-15-2012   #32
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
That Cowboys team would be a strong team in history to argue with. I'll grant you that. But Aikman wasn't near the QB that Brady was especially that season. Irvin and Harper were not what Moss and Welker were. Emmit Smith trumps the running game though. Dallas had a better defense though.

Personally I'd put that 49ers team that blasted the Broncos out of the water 55-10 as the best argument for the best team other than that Patriots team. They had a really good defense with Roger Craig, Rice, Taylor, Rathman, and Lott. Joe Montana vs. Tom Brady!! That's a match up!
I think the Niners debate with the Cowboys is a better one but I am not disagreeing with you overall by much. I think both were better than the Patriots.

Irvin and Harper v. Moss and Welker is an interesting debate. Their roles were so different. Irvin and Harper were never going to have the numbers because Emmitt was on the team. Irvin was the big bodied clutch WR of his time. I have made the comparison before but AJ is a direct descendent of Irvin. Harper averaged 25 ypr one season - that's insane. Moss as the gold standard for deep threats has never averaged over 20 ypr.
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Old 04-10-2014   #33
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

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Eli Manning: "We felt the right thing was to have Dr. Anderson clean out the ankle. Doc tells me I should be running in about six weeks."

Giants QB Eli Manning will undergo an arthroscopic procedure on his left ankle this afternoon.
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Old 04-11-2014   #34
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

Eli had that MOnster DLINE that's why if we do take Clownly man does not matter who our QB is our DLINE wil have to carry this team JJ CLown and who ever the NT and OLB is or DE I know we are prob gonna mix around stuff

alla u think CLown could play DE and OLB and maybe a DT in a 4-3
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Old 04-11-2014   #35
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Default Re: Eli Manning: I知 not better than Peyton ..

Eli had a really good stretch, but anybody who thought he was better than Peyton because of rings should be forbidden from discussing football under penalty of death.
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