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Old 08-20-2012   #141
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I've heard from plenty of coaches who disagree. You have good practice players and players who simply get it done when the lights come on. By Billick's logic, Victor Cruz would still be some scrub not on a roster.
You're assuming that Victor Cruz wasn't making the team until he had a big day against the Jets. If he wasn't already performing in camp, that big day wouldn't have gotten him on to the team. You get guys putting on shows in preseason games every year who never make it. Performance in a single game doesn't make someone's career.

Who holds the Texan's record for sacks in a preseason game? IIRC, Stylez G. White had 6 sacks against the Buccs several years ago. Has he turned into a star because of that 1 performance? No. He bounced around and finally stuck with the Buccs for a few years.

And how about 2010 when Cruz had those great performances? Who were the other WRs putting on big shows? Adrian Arrington, Matt Willis, Max Komar. What have they done? Something like 30 passes caught between them over the course of their entire NFL careers so far.

Someone like Victor Cruz having a breakout game against the Jets brings him to the attention of the fans but the coaches on the Giants already knew who he was and what he could do.
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Old 08-20-2012   #142
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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You're assuming that Victor Cruz wasn't making the team until he had a big day against the Jets. If he wasn't already performing in camp, that big day wouldn't have gotten him on to the team. You get guys putting on shows in preseason games every year who never make it. Performance in a single game doesn't make someone's career.

Who holds the Texan's record for sacks in a preseason game? IIRC, Stylez G. White had 6 sacks against the Buccs several years ago. Has he turned into a star because of that 1 performance? No. He bounced around and finally stuck with the Buccs for a few years.

And how about 2010 when Cruz had those great performances? Who were the other WRs putting on big shows? Adrian Arrington, Matt Willis, Max Komar. What have they done? Something like 30 passes caught between them over the course of their entire NFL careers so far.

Someone like Victor Cruz having a breakout game against the Jets brings him to the attention of the fans but the coaches on the Giants already knew who he was and what he could do.
Victor Cruz caught Rex Ryan's attention who said that if he was released they were going to sign him. He wouldn't have even known who he was had he not had that big game against him. Is Rex Ryan just a fan? To think that a player can't catch the attention of his coach when the real bullets are flying is silly. I just quoted Kubiak talking about Jean. He's had his struggles in camp at times so far, but he just makes plays when then lights are on. Its one thing to look at stats, but its a completely different monster to EVALUATE talent during a game. I hate fantasy football because it's all about stats.

The Giants also said that Victor Cruz probably wasn't going to make the team before that big game. They were too scared to release him because they knew someone was going to pick him up after that. Preseason means a lot for players.
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Old 08-20-2012   #143
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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He is, and my mistake on that one. Still though, no one is talking me out of my belief that only two pre-season games are enough. I don't like the idea of two pre-season games and 18 regular season games. Just don't like it.

And, of course, I hate Bellicheat. Billick is OK as far as a talking head on TV goes, but I don't always agree with what he says.
I don't agree with Billick most of the time. To me, he was overrated as a head coach which is probably why he still doesn't have a head coaching job. I don't want to derail the thread though, but he's the Skip Bayless of former head coaches in my opinion. I take what he says with a grain of salt because I think he says a lot of things for shock value.
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Old 08-20-2012   #144
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
Victor Cruz caught Rex Ryan's attention who said that if he was released they were going to sign him. He wouldn't have even known who he was had he not had that big game against him. Is Rex Ryan just a fan? To think that a player can't catch the attention of his coach when the real bullets are flying is silly. I just quoted Kubiak talking about Jean. He's had his struggles in camp at times so far, but he just makes plays when then lights are on. Its one thing to look at stats, but its a completely different monster to EVALUATE talent during a game. I hate fantasy football because it's all about stats.

The Giants also said that Victor Cruz probably wasn't going to make the team before that big game. They were too scared to release him because they knew someone was going to pick him up after that. Preseason means a lot for players.
Who does Rex Ryan coach? The Jets. Who has he been seeing in practice every day? The Jets. Has he been seeing the Giant's players? No. He knows about as much about the Giants players as a regular fan does. A hardcore Giants fan knows more about the Giants roster than Rex Ryan does. Rex Ryan doesn't have enough time in his day to be going over every team in the NFL and learning every player on them.

And who on the Giants said that Victor Cruz wasn't going to make the team before that big game? I'd like to see that quote.

Right here and right now, most of us hardcore Texans fans can sit down and name 40-45 of the guys who are going to be on the Texans squad at the beginning of the season and be dead-on. We're going to over-value some guys and we're going to undervalue other guys because we base our judgments almost entirely on the preseason games. But even with that, most of us will agree on the core of the team and argue over 7-8 positions. You're basically telling me you think the COACHES know less than we do? The coaches see more than we do and they know more than we do. They know if they're thinking about making moves and they know if some guy isn't performing.

I'm not saying that these games aren't important to the fringe players. They are. But the majority of the evaluation is done on the practice field.
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Old 08-20-2012   #145
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Who does Rex Ryan coach? The Jets. Who has he been seeing in practice every day? The Jets. Has he been seeing the Giant's players? No. He knows about as much about the Giants players as a regular fan does. A hardcore Giants fan knows more about the Giants roster than Rex Ryan does. Rex Ryan doesn't have enough time in his day to be going over every team in the NFL and learning every player on them.

And who on the Giants said that Victor Cruz wasn't going to make the team before that big game? I'd like to see that quote.

Right here and right now, most of us hardcore Texans fans can sit down and name 40-45 of the guys who are going to be on the Texans squad at the beginning of the season and be dead-on. We're going to over-value some guys and we're going to undervalue other guys because we base our judgments almost entirely on the preseason games. But even with that, most of us will agree on the core of the team and argue over 7-8 positions. You're basically telling me you think the COACHES know less than we do? The coaches see more than we do and they know more than we do. They know if they're thinking about making moves and they know if some guy isn't performing.

I'm not saying that these games aren't important to the fringe players. They are. But the majority of the evaluation is done on the practice field.
It was said plenty last year that he wasn't likely to be on their team before that game.

But I will give you this story straight from someone who's played the game. Mike Tolbert of the Panters (formerly the Chargers) didn't raise any eyebrows during training camp and the Chargers were only planning on keeping 1 fullback. He had a couple of really good preseason games and ended up playing a big role for them that year.

Guys catch the attention of coaches during the games. What good is a player if he can't produce when the lights come on? I know guys who have been in coaching rooms during evaluation. Preseason matters for the guys on the back end of the roster. Hell, it matters for guys on the front end for the roster as well. If you can find a player whose contract is a lot less than a veteran, produces just as much, and is younger then you go with the cheaper option. You are going to find these things out when the bullets start flying. Practice can only tell you so much.
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Old 08-20-2012   #146
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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It was said plenty last year that he wasn't likely to be on their team before that game.

But I will give you this story straight from someone who's played the game. Mike Tolbert of the Panters (formerly the Chargers) didn't raise any eyebrows during training camp and the Chargers were only planning on keeping 1 fullback. He had a couple of really good preseason games and ended up playing a big role for them that year.

Guys catch the attention of coaches during the games. What good is a player if he can't produce when the lights come on? I know guys who have been in coaching rooms during evaluation. Preseason matters for the guys on the back end of the roster. Hell, it matters for guys on the front end for the roster as well. If you can find a player whose contract is a lot less than a veteran, produces just as much, and is younger then you go with the cheaper option. You are going to find these things out when the bullets start flying. Practice can only tell you so much.
So, answer me this... who said it? Who said Victor Cruz wasn't making the team before that game? Who said Mike Tolbert wasn't making the Chargers before flashing in the pre-season games?
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Old 08-20-2012   #147
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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So, answer me this... who said it? Who said Victor Cruz wasn't making the team before that game? Who said Mike Tolbert wasn't making the Chargers before flashing in the pre-season games?
Ladainian Tomlinson said it. If you think that he wasn't heavily wired in to roster moves in the backfield at that time then I don't know what to tell you. He still wasn't too thrilled about him being on the roster because he wasn't a striker as a fullback.

As far as Victor Cruz goes, there were plenty of pieces on ESPN, Fox, etc last year talking about how that game propelled him. Without him producing in the preseason he isn't on that team. They were looking for someone to step up. He did. You want guys to make the team in the games. We talkin' about practice? Not the games, not the games but practice?
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Old 08-20-2012   #148
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Ladainian Tomlinson said it. If you think that he wasn't heavily wired in to roster moves in the backfield at that time then I don't know what to tell you. He still wasn't too thrilled about him being on the roster because he wasn't a striker as a fullback.

As far as Victor Cruz goes, there were plenty of pieces on ESPN, Fox, etc last year talking about how that game propelled him. Without him producing in the preseason he isn't on that team. They were looking for someone to step up. He did. You want guys to make the team in the games. We talkin' about practice? Not the games, not the games but practice?
So how many pre-season games did they need? All 4?

Victor Cruz went off in the 1st game of the preseason against the Jets. First game. He didn't need all 4.

Tolbert? In his first pre-season, he went 5 rushes for 22 yards. Not exactly blowing things up. And his second year, he had 3 rushes for < 20 yards and no rushes in the all-important 3rd game. Gartrell Johnson and Michael Bennett blew up in pre-season for the Chargers that year when it came to rushing. If Mike Tolbert blew up in preseason, it was after Tomlinson was a Jet.

And that brings up... Gartrell Johnson. Leading the Chargers in rushing in the preseason in 2009 and spends the year with the Giants. The next year with the Falcons. And then he's out of football with 23 career rushes and 79 career yards to his name.
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Old 08-20-2012   #149
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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So how many pre-season games did they need? All 4?

Victor Cruz went off in the 1st game of the preseason against the Jets. First game. He didn't need all 4.

Tolbert? In his first pre-season, he went 5 rushes for 22 yards. Not exactly blowing things up. And his second year, he had 3 rushes for < 20 yards and no rushes in the all-important 3rd game. Gartrell Johnson and Michael Bennett blew up in pre-season for the Chargers that year when it came to rushing. If Mike Tolbert blew up in preseason, it was after Tomlinson was a Jet.

And that brings up... Gartrell Johnson. Leading the Chargers in rushing in the preseason in 2009 and spends the year with the Giants. The next year with the Falcons. And then he's out of football with 23 career rushes and 79 career yards to his name.
If there were only 2 preseason games you think Victor Cruz gets that same opportunity to shine? No, because the starters would play more. Your argument about the games not mattering is silly. You can continue to throw all these stats out there but you don't know what you're talking about.

Tolbert had an awesome preseason as a blocker his rookie year. Your precious stats won't show you that though. They let Lorenzo Neal go and went with Pinnock and Hester at fullback for a few years. LT was with Tolbert the last 2 years he was in San Diego. How are you going to tell me he didn't have a good preseason while he was there? He made the team by his performance in the preseason. Listen man, stats don't always tell the whole story. If you don't know that then your knowledge as a fan is severely lacking.
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Old 08-20-2012   #150
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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If there were only 2 preseason games you think Victor Cruz gets that same opportunity to shine? No, because the starters would play more. Your argument about the games not mattering is silly. You can continue to throw all these stats out there but you don't know what you're talking about.

Tolbert had an awesome preseason as a blocker his rookie year. Your precious stats won't show you that though. They let Lorenzo Neal go and went with Pinnock and Hester at fullback for a few years. LT was with Tolbert the last 2 years he was in San Diego. How are you going to tell me he didn't have a good preseason while he was there? He made the team by his performance in the preseason. Listen man, stats don't always tell the whole story. If you don't know that then your knowledge as a fan is severely lacking.
At least be consistent:
Quote:
Ladainian Tomlinson said it. If you think that he wasn't heavily wired in to roster moves in the backfield at that time then I don't know what to tell you. He still wasn't too thrilled about him being on the roster because he wasn't a striker as a fullback.
Did he have a great pre-season as a blocker or was he not a striker as a fullback? Which was it?

And I did some research on Victor Cruz. You're absolutely right. BUT you're also absolutely wrong.

I guess Victor Cruz wasn't doing it in practice and training camp for the Giants. As a matter of fact (if rumor is to be believed), the coaches wanted to cut him even after that great preseason. That feeds in to what I was saying, flashing in the games doesn't make that big of a difference to the coaches. Even after that huge preseason he had, the coaches were going to waive him. They thought he needed more time on the practice squad.

But the owners and front office heard they were going to cut Cruz and they came to Cruz's rescue because they knew he wouldn't clear waivers and they didn't want him to become a Jet. And Rex Ryan had said he'd sign him if he got cut.

So, you're right about Cruz getting saved and how. But that story also proves my point. In almost all cases, putting up some gaudy stats in the preseason won't get you a job unless you're showing you're a professional in practice.
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Old 08-20-2012   #151
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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At least be consistent:


Did he have a great pre-season as a blocker or was he not a striker as a fullback? Which was it?

And I did some research on Victor Cruz. You're absolutely right. BUT you're also absolutely wrong.

I guess Victor Cruz wasn't doing it in practice and training camp for the Giants. As a matter of fact (if rumor is to be believed), the coaches wanted to cut him even after that great preseason. That feeds in to what I was saying, flashing in the games doesn't make that big of a difference to the coaches. Even after that huge preseason he had, the coaches were going to waive him. They thought he needed more time on the practice squad.

But the owners and front office heard they were going to cut Cruz and they came to Cruz's rescue because they knew he wouldn't clear waivers and they didn't want him to become a Jet. And Rex Ryan had said he'd sign him if he got cut.

So, you're right about Cruz getting saved and how. But that story also proves my point. In almost all cases, putting up some gaudy stats in the preseason won't get you a job unless you're showing you're a professional in practice.
And this is exactly why you don't know what you're talking about. When he said he wasn't a striker he meant that his blocking style was different from Lo Neal. LT played behind him for years and was used to him blowing guys up. Tolbert was a lot smaller, and used positioning more with his blocking. He did it well, but that's not what LT was used to. Running Back is an art and you get used to certain guys and how they block. He didn't prefer how Tolbert blocked. When you go from an all time FB to a guy like Tolbert there is a big difference. But anyone who watched the games still knew that Tolbert was playing well. His blocking style is similar to Casey's. Tolbert is a much better blocker, but he isn't gonna demolish guys like Lo Neal or Leach.

Dude, and about Cruz listen to what you're saying. It doesn't make any sense. The coaches were too scared to cut him because they knew another team would snatch him up! Why? Because he balled in the preseason games. They knew because he played so well in the preseason that there was no way they could afford to let him sneak away. You're making my case for me. Practice will only show you so much. When the lights turn on that's what really matters. You're normally pretty sane when it comes to your football takes, but you sound asinine with this one.
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Old 08-20-2012   #152
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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I completely agree with this. The four pre-season games are there for a reason, and I would not like them taken away. I'm also against adding any more games to the season. Things are just fine the way they are.
Ummm....

Paying full price for 4 glorified scrimmages isn't something season ticketholders agree with.
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Old 08-20-2012   #153
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

John Beck looked good against the Panthers in game 1, and didn't get any chance against the Niners because Kubiak wanted to start Case Keenum(for some I reason I think it's because he's the "hometown kid", not because he's better.

John Beck has experience in this system in Washington and he's a veteran, and we all know how much Kubiak loves veterans, I think Beck will be the 3rd QB on the depth chart and Keenum will be on the PS. And I really doubt anyone will pick up Keenum off the waivers list.
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Old 08-20-2012   #154
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

BTW Victor Cruz was injured after his great preseason and he was put on the IR, so no one could pick him up, and the Giants kept him on the team after he was healthy, which was last season.
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Old 08-20-2012   #155
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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BTW Victor Cruz was injured after his great preseason and he was put on the IR, so no one could pick him up, and the Giants kept him on the team after he was healthy, which was last season.
He had the same injury Lestar Jean had last year.
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Old 08-20-2012   #156
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

He wasn't placed on IR until oct 16th though. Well into the season.
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Old 08-20-2012   #157
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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He wasn't placed on IR until oct 16th though. Well into the season.
Yeah, sorry, that's true. For some reason i thought he was injured in the preseason. But he only played three games and didn't have any catches.

Not to mention it's much harder to make it on the NFL roster as an UDFA QB. And Case hasn't done anything in the preseason yet that will make teams get him if the Texans waived him.
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Old 08-20-2012   #158
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Yeah, sorry, that's true. For some reason i thought he was injured in the preseason. But he only played three games and didn't have any catches.

Not to mention it's much harder to make it on the NFL roster as an UDFA QB. And Case hasn't done anything in the preseason yet that will make teams get him if the Texans waived him.
My point was that he made the team through his preseason performance. If he goes out and plays terrible then he doesn't make the team. This idea that preseason games doesn't matter makes as much sense as me trying out for Miss America. Tell that to Braman who also had a big preseason last year that helped him make the team.
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Old 08-20-2012   #159
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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John Beck looked good against the Panthers in game 1, and didn't get any chance against the Niners because Kubiak wanted to start Case Keenum(for some I reason I think it's because he's the "hometown kid", not because he's better.

John Beck has experience in this system in Washington and he's a veteran, and we all know how much Kubiak loves veterans, I think Beck will be the 3rd QB on the depth chart and Keenum will be on the PS. And I really doubt anyone will pick up Keenum off the waivers list.
Here's the issue: If Beck is the #3, then the Texans lose a roster spot (50 minus QBs)... If Keenum is the #3, then the Texans gain a roster spot (51 minus QBs) because he can be stashed on the practice squad... that's the issue.
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Old 08-20-2012   #160
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

After rewatching the SF game , gonna try this again - taking into consideration the input of a couple good posts in this thread.


Offense - 24
QB – Schaub, Yates, Keenum
RB – Foster, Tate, Grimes
FB – Casey, Norris
TE – Daniels, Graham
T – Brown, Butler, Newton
G – W.Smith, Caldwell, Brooks, S.Smith
C – Myers, Jones
WR – Johnson, Walter, Martin, Jean , Posey

Defense - 25
DE – Smith, Watt, Jamison, Crick
NT – Cody, Mitchell, Harris
OLB – Barwin, Reed, Mercilus, Braman, Nading
ILB – Cushing, James, Dobbins, Alexander
CB – Joseph, Jackson, McCain, Harris, Carmichael
S – Manning, Quin, Demps, Nolan

Special Teams - 4
LS – Weeks
K – Bullock
P – Jones
PR/KR - Holliday


PUP List – Hartmann, Sharpton
IR Stash –

Practice Squad –
Brock
Mondek
Loiseau
Williams
Fangupo
Jerrell Jackson (wr)
Pleasant
Meggett


Two changes from my last list -

Have Keenum making the final 53, dropping Brock, he's done nodda to earn it. Having Casey as the #1 FB #3 TE gives roster flexability.

Bumping Keo and replacing with Nading. His ST play earns him a roster spot. The other guy I considered was McManis. This will be a difficult decision as you could make an arguement for all three players. Just dont think you can have enough depth at the LB spots ....

There is always the option to place Keenum on the PS opening up another spot for a TE , ILB (Sharpton) or CB (McManis).
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