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Old 08-21-2012   #181
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I don't think you understand.
You're right.

I've never played football beyond the Pop Warner level.

But I understand that there's game speed and there's practice speed. And I understand that some people play better when the lights come on. I'm a powerlifter and I deadlift a helluva lot more when I'm on the podium than I can even imagine lifting in the gym.

But that doesn't change the fact that most of a coaching staff's evaluation of their players is based on what they see in the OTAs and in training camp and what they know about the player from past history. That doesn't change the fact that pre-season games don't mean as much to player evaluations to the coaching staff as they do to fans watching from the outside.

Right now, right this second, Kubiak and Crew know most of the players who are going to be on the 53 and there are just a few edge battles still remaining for the guys on the bubble. Now, for us, the fans, we're basing our evaluations on what we see in those preseason games. If a guy makes some big catches in preseason like Dorin Dickerson did, we want him on the squad, but the coaching staff has been working with these guys and know (hopefully) which ones are getting it and which ones aren't, and which ones need more work. I'm not saying that coaching staffs don't get it wrong sometimes, but I am saying that fans get hung up on big performances in the preseason and then can't understand why those guys aren't making the team.

To use your own example, preseason games are not regular season games. Some guys flash in the preseason who can't do it when the bullets fly for real, for real.

And like I said earlier, coaches like Coughlin and Kubiak are notorious for not playing guys if they don't practice well. One of Kubiak's mantras is that you play like you practice. He's said it in several interviews. If you want to explain the difference between practice and game speed, take it up with them.
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Old 08-21-2012   #182
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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
You're right.

I've never played football beyond the Pop Warner level.

But I understand that there's game speed and there's practice speed. And I understand that some people play better when the lights come on. I'm a powerlifter and I deadlift a helluva lot more when I'm on the podium than I can even imagine lifting in the gym.
I wasn't commenting on the conversation you were having. I was just commenting on the post corrosion made about some guys looking different in practice than in games.

But I guess I will now.

We dont get to see all the practices and sit in all the meeting rooms, so yeah, we have less information to base our opinions on. We also don't know exactly what the coaches expect out of players on any given play, so some of our opinions are based on just a guess and piecing together information based off what we think we know.

All that said, you can't tell everything from practice. Pre season is more about seeing what Lestar Jean or keyshawn martin can do against guys in a game situation than Andre Johnson or Kevin walter.

Yeah, most of your team you have a good idea of what they are, but for some of those guys trying to make the 53 or the practice squad, you may not have much of them in practice.

I don't mind if they shorten the pre season or leave it as it is though. The coaches are just going to have to make decisions without as much data as they'd normally have. But they should still be able to make decent decisions.
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Old 08-21-2012   #183
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
I deleted the game from my DVR, so I am working from memory here.

I dont doubt the corner blitz, or the zone. Neither do I contest that he made the right read. However, the ball being a couple inches off is the problem. It was not a good enough pass. You say it yourself, basically.
It's funny that the guys from Houston (Joe Myers and Spencer Tillman) were less impressed with the pass than the team from SF (Tim Ryan and Dennis O'Donnell).

I have both versions.

Myers hastily reacted "almost intercepted".
Tillman said "a little too far" (the pass).

O'Donnell called out "Here comes the blitz" ... "and forced Keenum to get rid of it".
On the replay, Ryan declared "aehh, that ball should have been caught".

Sounds like those guys need to trade places, LOL!

All and all, that ought to tell you that it was not a poor play by Keenum by any stretch of the imagination.
On a blitz, if your QB can get the ball out close enough for the receiver to make a play, it's at least a fair play by the QB.

Now if Keenum had not recognize the blitz, it would have been a different story.
Remember how Schaub got hit and was hurt in his first or second year by a CB (was it a Titan player?)
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Old 08-21-2012   #184
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
It's funny that the guys from Houston (Joe Myers and Spencer Tillman) were less impressed with the pass than the team from SF (Tim Ryan and Dennis O'Donnell).

I have both versions.

Myers hastily reacted "almost intercepted".
Tillman said "a little too far" (the pass).

O'Donnell called out "Here comes the blitz" ... "and forced Keenum to get rid of it".
On the replay, Ryan declared "aehh, that ball should have been caught".

Sounds like those guys need to trade places, LOL!

All and all, that ought to tell you that it was not a poor play by Keenum by any stretch of the imagination.
On a blitz, if your QB can get the ball out close enough for the receiver to make a play, it's at least a fair play by the QB.

Now if Keenum had not recognize the blitz, it would have been a different story.
Remember how Schaub got hit and was hurt in his first or second year by a CB (was it a Titan player?)
Joe Myers and Spencer Tillman need to be replaced by rmartin65 & 76Texan
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Old 08-21-2012   #185
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

Case Keenum has an outside shot (at best) of making the final 53. If Kubiak is that frightened that some team will poach him off our practice squad, then I expect Keenum to get some kind of "injury" and get stashed on IR (Much like I expect DeVier Posey to do the same). I really don't see any team putting Case Keenum as one of their QB's on their 53 man roster, especially if he doesn't get any real meaningful action in the preseason (like he has so far).

I like Keenum too and he may develop into a player in the future, but right now, I seriously doubt there are any NFL teams who are chomping at the bit to go sign Case Keenum. If there are, they would've drafted him, and they aren't changing their minds because he threw 10 passes in the preseason.
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Old 08-21-2012   #186
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans...53-man-roster/

ring around the roster, pocket full of Posey, Holliday, Keenum they all fall down
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Old 08-21-2012   #187
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
It's funny that the guys from Houston (Joe Myers and Spencer Tillman) were less impressed with the pass than the team from SF (Tim Ryan and Dennis O'Donnell).

I have both versions.

Myers hastily reacted "almost intercepted".
Tillman said "a little too far" (the pass).

O'Donnell called out "Here comes the blitz" ... "and forced Keenum to get rid of it".
On the replay, Ryan declared "aehh, that ball should have been caught".

Sounds like those guys need to trade places, LOL!

All and all, that ought to tell you that it was not a poor play by Keenum by any stretch of the imagination.
On a blitz, if your QB can get the ball out close enough for the receiver to make a play, it's at least a fair play by the QB.

Now if Keenum had not recognize the blitz, it would have been a different story.
Remember how Schaub got hit and was hurt in his first or second year by a CB (was it a Titan player?)
Yes, recognizing the blitz was a good play. And yes, throwing to that particular receiver was most likely the best option. However, there is no denying that the pass was off the mark, and without the effort of the receiver to deflect the ball, there is a very real possibility (I would say likely) that that ball is picked and taken to the house. It was right in the SF defender's chest.

It is better to take the sack than turn the ball over. If Keenum did not think he could make that pass (and he did not make the pass) then he should have taken the sack.
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Old 08-21-2012   #188
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I wasn't commenting on the conversation you were having. I was just commenting on the post corrosion made about some guys looking different in practice than in games.

But I guess I will now.

We dont get to see all the practices and sit in all the meeting rooms, so yeah, we have less information to base our opinions on. We also don't know exactly what the coaches expect out of players on any given play, so some of our opinions are based on just a guess and piecing together information based off what we think we know.

All that said, you can't tell everything from practice. Pre season is more about seeing what Lestar Jean or keyshawn martin can do against guys in a game situation than Andre Johnson or Kevin walter.

Yeah, most of your team you have a good idea of what they are, but for some of those guys trying to make the 53 or the practice squad, you may not have much of them in practice.

I don't mind if they shorten the pre season or leave it as it is though. The coaches are just going to have to make decisions without as much data as they'd normally have. But they should still be able to make decent decisions.
And that's the point. From the practices, the OTAs, the meetings, and whatnot, you know the majority of who's going to be on your team. The preseason games decide the fate of those few remaining spots that you're not sure about AND the preseason games give you a chance to tweak who's with the 1s vs. who's with the 2's. There are some guys who play their way on to the team during this phase.

Billick said that by the second preseason game, you usually know 50 of the 53. That might have been overstating the case but I don't think it's very far off especially if you consider what we, the fans, think we know about the current roster.

AND, having a huge game or two in the preseason doesn't necessarily assure you a spot on a roster. There are lots of examples of guys who have big preseasons and then get cut. And it's usually a surprise to the fans because, unlike the coaches, we're basing most -- if not all -- our evaluation on those preseason games.

That's all I'm saying.
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Old 08-21-2012   #189
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
Yes, recognizing the blitz was a good play. And yes, throwing to that particular receiver was most likely the best option. However, there is no denying that the pass was off the mark, and without the effort of the receiver to deflect the ball, there is a very real possibility (I would say likely) that that ball is picked and taken to the house. It was right in the SF defender's chest.

It is better to take the sack than turn the ball over. If Keenum did not think he could make that pass (and he did not make the pass) then he should have taken the sack.
Nah, the safety first job was to cover the RB Forsett, who went into the motion wide right to the side line.

Forsett was turning back the whole time looking for the ball since the CB lining up over him came in on the blitz.

I would say in an instance like this, the RB should run harder downfield to keep the safety back.

The way this play was designed is like a Hi-Lo concept.
The guy that runs the deeper route needs to concentrate on spreading the field for the underneath receiver.

If he went hard at it he would have a lot of seperation when the safety decides to jump the underneath route.
That would make an easier decision for the QB, as he can go long right off the bat.
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Old 08-21-2012   #190
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Case Keenum has an outside shot (at best) of making the final 53. If Kubiak is that frightened that some team will poach him off our practice squad, then I expect Keenum to get some kind of "injury" and get stashed on IR (Much like I expect DeVier Posey to do the same). I really don't see any team putting Case Keenum as one of their QB's on their 53 man roster, especially if he doesn't get any real meaningful action in the preseason (like he has so far).

I like Keenum too and he may develop into a player in the future, but right now, I seriously doubt there are any NFL teams who are chomping at the bit to go sign Case Keenum. If there are, they would've drafted him, and they aren't changing their minds because he threw 10 passes in the preseason.
If everything goes well, I would rather have Keenum on the PS.

More likely than not, other teams won't pick him up; but one never knows.

What is more interesting is whether Kubiak wants to keep 3 QBs on the roster.
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Old 08-21-2012   #191
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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If everything goes well, I would rather have Keenum on the PS.

More likely than not, other teams won't pick him up; but one never knows.

What is more interesting is whether Kubiak wants to keep 3 QBs on the roster.
I think that's what's going to happen. I'm pretty sure he'll go with 3 QB's this year but I'm not sure if Beck is really going to be that 3rd guy, or if he's going to find somebody who got cut.

Speaking of small QB's though, Russell Wilson, tiny qb extraordinaire of Wisconsin fame, will be getting the start for Seattle this Friday. So you know, we might have somebody other than Drew Brees and Doug Flutie to compare Keenum to.
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Old 08-21-2012   #192
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
I think that's what's going to happen. I'm pretty sure he'll go with 3 QB's this year but I'm not sure if Beck is really going to be that 3rd guy, or if he's going to find somebody who got cut.

Speaking of small QB's though, Russell Wilson, tiny qb extraordinaire of Wisconsin fame, will be getting the start for Seattle this Friday. So you know, we might have somebody other than Drew Brees and Doug Flutie to compare Keenum to.
I did say during the draft that I was also very impressed by Wilson.
He and Keenum were the top two guys who performed well under pressure.
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Old 08-21-2012   #193
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

Guys, I did a 53 man roster at TBB. You can check it out here. http://is.gd/hZv6eX

I could only find two open spots on the roster and the whole thing balances on wether or not the Texans decide to keep CB Alan Ball as a vet CB despite is poor performance.

Don't discount them keeping him either. Vance Joseph did wonders with this secondary from a teaching standpoint and Ball is a willing tackler.

Here's the offense:

1 QB1 M. Schaub
2 QB2 T. Yates
3 QB3 C. Keenum After losing 2 QB's in as many weeks, the days of Kubiak only keeping 2 passers are over.
4 RB1 A. Foster
5 RB2 B. Tate
6 RB3 J. Forsett
7 FB1 J. Casey
8 FB2 M. Norris
9 TE1 O. Daniels
10 TE2 G. Graham Casey’s versatility makes carrying only 2 TE’s more possible but a 3rd TE could be had in exchange for another position. This is one of two possible scenarios that I could see.
11 WR1 A. Johnson
12 WR2 K. Walter
13 WR3 K. Martin
14 WR4 L. Jean
15 WR5 T. Holliday Having a good football team has awarded the Texans the ultimate luxury of a return “specialist”.
16 WR6 D. Posey Yes, all three of the young WR’s make the roster. Kubiak believes in Posey and wouldn’t risk leaving him unprotected on the practice squad.
17 OT1 D. Brown
18 OT2 R. Butler
19 OT3 D. Newton
20 OG1 W. Smith
21 OG2 A. Caldwell
22 OG3 S. Smith Shelley Smith played his way into an extra roster spot for the guards. This extra spot is had in exchange for the third TE.
23 OG4 B. Brooks Brooks potential and high draft status will keep him on the roster as well, similar to Posey.
24 C C. Meyers
25 C B. Jones
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Old 08-21-2012   #194
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

WR1 Andre Johnson Keshawn Martin Lestar Jean
LT Duane Brown Andrew Gardner
LG Wade Smith Kasey Studdard
C Chris Myers Ben Jones
RG Antoine Caldwell Brandon Brooks Shelley Smith
RT Rashad Butler Derek Newton
TE Owen Daniels Garrett Graham
WR2 Kevin Walter DeVier Posey Trindon Holliday
QB Matt Schaub T.J. Yates
RB Arian Foster Ben Tate Justin Forsett
FB James Casey

DE J.J. Watt Tim Jamison
DT Shaun Cody Earl Mitchell Ra'Shon Harris
DE Antonio Smith Jared Crick
SLB Brooks Reed Bryan Braman Jesse Nading
ILB Brian Cushing Mister Alexander
ILB Bradie James Tim Dobbins
WLB Connor Barwin Whitney Mercilus
LCB Kareem Jackson Sherrick McManis Brandon Harris
RCB Johnathan Joseph Brice McCain
SS Danieal Manning Quintin Demps
FS Glover Quin Troy Nolan

PK Shayne Graham
P Donnie Jones
LS Jonathan Weeks
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Old 08-21-2012   #195
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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QB: Schaub, Yates, Beck
RB: Foster, Tate, Forsett
FB: Casey, Norris
WR: AJ, KW, KMart, Jean, Posey
TE: OD, GGraham
LT: DB, Butler, Newton
LG: Smith, Smith, Caldwell, Brooks
C: Myers, Jones

DE: Smith, Watt, Jamison, Crick
NT: Cody, Earl, [STRIKE]Fangupo[/STRIKE] Harris??
OLB: Barwin, Reed, Braman, Mercilus
ILB: Cush, James, Dobbins, Alexander
CB: JJo, Jackson, McCain, Harris, McManis, Carmichael
S: Manning, Quin, Demps, Nolan

LS: Weeks
K/PR: Holliday
P: Jones
K: Bullock
I think the only thing I'd change is Fangupo not making the roster, and forgot to add Hartmann and Sharpton to the PUP list.
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Old 08-21-2012   #196
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

Kubiak today:

Quote:
(on how he would evaluate the progress of QB Case Keenum right now) I think hes further along than I thought he would be. Watching him get ready for the combine and all those things, going from a shotgun player to an under center player, it looked like it was a struggle. Im sure it was. So that was a concern of mine, but me watching him do it for us has been excellent. Hes handled it, the snaps, all that we do has not been a problem. So Ive been very impressed with how far hes come. He could or could not get some time this week, depending on how it goes with our ones and our twos. Between he and John (Beck), theyre going to play a ton of football against Minnesota. Hes holding his own. Ive been very impressed.
Denison today:
Quote:
(on QBs John Beck and Case Keenum) I think both of them have done very well. We still keep working with them, its still open. Weve got two games. (QB) Matt (Schaub) and (QB) T.J. (Yates) will get a lot of this game, and then the last game well see how that works out. I think both of them have done well; both have obviously strengths and weaknesses. Johns been around the system, hes played a lot in the League, and Case is a battler. He always figures out a way to do it. Obviously, with the career at Houston, you can see that at practice.



(on if logic is telling him to go with the more experienced QB, John Beck) I dont know; logic and my name has rarely been in the same sentence. I think itll play itself out, I really do. I think well figure that one out. Itll play itself out and obviously (QB) Matt (Schaub) and (QB) T.J. (Yates) have done everything weve asked and done great. Matts really made some strides, especially the last couple weeks.
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Old 08-22-2012   #197
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

Thanks for the update Cloak.

It's good to know that I'm seeing what the coaches are seeing.

Here's a bit I picked up from Schaub in the same report:

(on QB Case Keenum) “I think his progression has been really good. He’s a tremendous worker; his mind for the game is incredible for a young guy in this league, especially in our system, something totally new to him and from what he ran in college for five, six years. How he’s picked it up and how he works has been very impressive. So it’s been exciting to watch.”

Last edited by 76Texan; 08-22-2012 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 08-22-2012   #198
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

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Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
I'm honestly starting to think that Kubiak is limiting Keenum's reps on purpose -- in an attempt to hide what the kid can do from other teams -- so he can try to stash him on the PS.

There's no other reason why the guy is taking knees on his second possession twice in a row --- specially when the one thing this team needs more than anything else is to evaluate players and come up with better ways to increase redzone efficiency.

No reason to start the victory formation in preseason with 2+ minutes left. Even San Fran went for it on 4th down to get a little live-fire practice against another team. The Texans essentially started the last drive in the red zone!

Hell, I thought that was Harbaugh being nice to Kubiak in an attempt to get Keenum another shot. Or to get Bullock another shot at a FG (just my opinion on it..)

TJ
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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I know!
My brother-in-law was furious that Kubiak didn't let people see a little more of Keenum.
Make it hard to evaluate his play.

He did the same thing in the Panthers game.
We had the ball on the Car 19 with 1:38 to go.
Kubiak called a run for Meggett that gained 6 then ordered Keenum to kneel twice to end the game.
With two minutes or less left in those games, Kubiak was probably in full on "let's end the game injury free" mode.
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Old 08-22-2012   #199
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

I want to see Case get more snaps, too, but Kubiak isn't trying to hide him from other teams...IMO, he's just trying to end a meaningless preseason game, get out of there without any injuries.

Nobody wants to blow their ACL or snap a bone or joint in the last two minutes of a preseason game. That would really suck.

If Case doesn't put up something really nice, consistently, in these last two games...and IF Beck handles himself well by contrast...then Case will clear waivers and hit our PS.

At this point, I'm wanting to go with veterans: Norris at FB,. Graham at FG, and Beck at QB3. I have no patience for shaky rookies on the active 53...not with what's on the line. Last year, the other 3 AFCS teams sort of snoozed and let their guard down. This year, they all bumped their game up a notch or so, trying to beat US. The time for dabbling with shaky players is over. Go with experience in FB, FG, and QB...because other positions have youth and are doing well (RB, WR, LBs).
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Old 08-22-2012   #200
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Default Re: Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.

I don't think either Beck or Keenum qualifies as "Shaky" at this point. They simply haven't had enough snaps to show anything IMO.

The definition of Shaky was how Yates looked against San Fran. In fact, "Earthquake shaky", would be more appropriate given the team we were playing against..

TJ
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