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Old 05-24-2005   #1
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Default Cowboy coachs struggle to learn 3-4 D

"Zimmer has spent his off-season begging, borrowing and stealing, learning everything he can about the 3-4 defense. The front, which the Cowboys are expected to use as their base in 2005, is new to Zimmer and new to the Cowboys.
"It's like learning Greek," Zimmer said. "It's been a busy off-season."
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/fo...s/11724012.htm
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Old 05-24-2005   #2
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I'm confident the Cowboys' will do great with the 3-4 D, Parcells was a defensive master mind with the 3-4 when he was with the Giants, Jets, and Patriots. He'll teach Zimmer the tricks of the trades.
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Old 05-24-2005   #3
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You'd think Capers could atleast get some mention in this discussion given his background and contribution to the 3-4. Maybe the author thinks mentioning
Capors would remind Cowboy fans that their team was beat by Capers very own 3-4 the first time his new X team team in Houston played a game ?
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"The Steelers have used the front since 1983, longer than any other team, and have led the AFC in total defense six times and in points allowed five times since 1990.A lot of guys who have been through Pittsburgh really believe in that system more than anything else. It's been very good to them
But there are other reasons for the 3-4 defense's growing popularity: the elevations of defensive coordinators Romeo Crennel and Mike Nolan, who are 3-4 disciples, to head coaching positions at Cleveland and San Francisco"
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Old 05-24-2005   #4
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I don't understand, what you are getting to. Parcells is simply changing Dallas' defensive scheme to what he's been so succesful with in the past.

Back in the early 80s when Parcells was with the Giants, he drafted Lawrence Taylor and changed the defense from a 4-3 to a 3-4 to take advantage of Taylor's pass rushing from outside linebacker. Looks to me Dallas is doing the same with DeMarcus Ware.
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Old 05-26-2005   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbinoRat
I love Troy State and DeMarcus Ware, but I think your overestimating his ability to fit in to the 3-4 quickly.
DeMarcus Ware reminds me of Antwaan Peek - non-major college program,
DE in college who needs to convert to OLB, but a tremendous athlete. And
lets see now, we're in the 3rd year of Peeks career and he's just now, finally looking like he'll be a starter. But the big difference between them - Peek was a third rounder, which is no small price, but Ware is #11 overall in the current Draft. Cowboys have a far bigger investment than we do.
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Old 05-26-2005   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbinoRat
I love Troy State and DeMarcus Ware, but I think your overestimating his ability to fit in to the 3-4 quickly. The 'boys aren't gonna do as well as everyone seems to think, it's gonna take a few years for that to come together. The Texans probably won't live up to the hype either though...unless we can acquire a few more key guys before the season starts.
I am one of Wares biggest supporters and i have no idea just what impact he'll have right out of the gate. I think your missing the point of Cowboys fans upbeat attitude. It's gonna be tough and talented vets like Bledsoe,Rivera, Ferguson, Henry and Glenn that will make or break this team in 2005. If any team has to rely on Rooks to get them to the playoffs they are in trouble, as you can attest with a young QB.
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Old 05-26-2005   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowBoutThemCowboys!
I'm confident the Cowboys' will do great with the 3-4 D, Parcells was a defensive master mind with the 3-4 when he was with the Giants, Jets, and Patriots. He'll teach Zimmer the tricks of the trades.
Belichick was the defensive master on all those Parcells 3-4 defenses. I'm not saying that Parcells doesn't know a lot about defense, but most of the credit should go to Belichick.
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Old 05-26-2005   #8
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BP has ran the 3-4 every year he has coached except the 2 in Dallas. He even ran it at Texas Tech when he was D Coord. I think it will be ok. Just like in NE with Belichick, BP will be in control of the D. He will be the one making the game plans and Zimm will call it on the sidelines.


Burntte(2nd round draft choice) played it in college. Dat played at A&M. Ferguson played with the Jets. Glover played a little with NO. We wont know about Spears or Ware until the season starts but that is with all rookies. Most had Ware as the best pure pass rusher in the draft so I can't see him having many problems but we will see. Cowboys 4th round draft choice Canty played in it college as well. Most consider him to be a 1st round draft choice but injuries hurt him.

Last edited by DFAN; 05-27-2005 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 05-27-2005   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornOrange
Belichick was the defensive master on all those Parcells 3-4 defenses. I'm not saying that Parcells doesn't know a lot about defense, but most of the credit should go to Belichick.
True, but Parcells was the defensive coordinator for the Giants when he started to use the 3-4.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DFAN
Cowboys 4th round draft choice Canty played in in college as well. Most consider him to be a 1st round draft choice but injuries hurt him.
Canty was a steal. The only reason he wasn't taken in the first round was because a glass bottle hit his eye while he was subsiding by a bar fight. I think the bottle screwed up up his cornia or something, but he's fine now, surgery fixed it all.
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Old 05-27-2005   #10
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Detached retina. He had scar tissue removed last week and is fine and expected to be in TC. He also had ACL surgery last year as well. But that doesn't seem to be a concern so far. I don't look for him to contribute a lot this year.
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Old 05-27-2005   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornOrange
Belichick was the defensive master on all those Parcells 3-4 defenses. I'm not saying that Parcells doesn't know a lot about defense, but most of the credit should go to Belichick.
Guess that would explain all the success Belichick had when he was in Cleveland:
1991 - 6-10
1992 - 7-9
1993 - 7-9
1994 - 11-5
1995 - 5-11

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Old 05-27-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFAN
Detached retina. He had scar tissue removed last week and is fine and expected to be in TC. He also had ACL surgery last year as well. But that doesn't seem to be a concern so far. I don't look for him to contribute a lot this year.
Yeah, I don't see him doing much this year with Ellis and Spears around, but he'll be more of a factor in the future.
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Old 05-29-2005   #13
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One thing about Parcells switching to the 3-4, it will finally give his team
an opportunity to get value for Roy Williams. 8th overall back in '02 was way
too much for this guy as a safety, but he is a natural LB who gives Dallas
a chance to redeem the wisdom of their choice by playing him in one of the
3-4 LB slots.
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Old 05-29-2005   #14
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Actually he's a natural SS. He's just been playing out of position (FS) because of Darren Woodson. Now that Woodson's retired, Williams will be able to move back to SS.
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Old 05-29-2005   #15
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Generalizing, a top 10 overall is simply too much of premium to pay for someone who is suited only to play safety, whether its free or strong. These
2 positions are the least important in the whole defense and can usually be manned by slower and/or over-the-hill CBs (see Marcus Colemann/Houston Texans for reference). As far as Sean Taylor goes, I dunno maybe he's worth a top ten pick, but he is unquestionaly a superior athlete to Williams and would be fast enough to play corner, whereas Williams does not have that kind of sprint speed. If I'm not mistikaken, Parcells has alluded to Williams as a LB prospect - something about a "brick short" nickname re him being LB size, but honestly I don't have a link at this time to back that up.
Parcells would not have made this pick, and I think Jones made it the year beffore Parcells arrived. Williams switching to LB will be easier transition than that move for top draft pick DE Ware. Watch for Parcells to move Williams sometime this year.
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Old 05-29-2005   #16
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The cowboys will struggle like the browns will this year, but they will be better since the level of talent the boys have is so much higher.
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Old 05-29-2005   #17
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I think the Cowboys have a chance of contending for the NFC East if they're able to keep Bledsoe on his feet. They've got the pieces in place to have an effective running game, and Drew can still let it fly with the best of them. Only problem is he's a statue in the pocket, and he'll live or die by his OLine. Their defense might take a while to get a grasp of the 3-4, but the new additions to the defensive side of the ball should pay immediate dividends. I think they have a good mix of veteran players and young players. Their biggest problem is being in the same division as the Eagles. Couple that with having to face Washington and their D twice a year and you've got a tough road to winning the division. I think they can be anywhere from a middle of the pack team to a playoff caliber team depending on the protection Drew gets.
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Old 05-29-2005   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunusguy
Generalizing, a top 10 overall is simply too much of premium to pay for someone who is suited only to play safety, whether its free or strong. These
2 positions are the least important in the whole defense and can usually be manned by slower and/or over-the-hill CBs (see Marcus Colemann/Houston Texans for reference). As far as Sean Taylor goes, I dunno maybe he's worth a top ten pick, but he is unquestionaly a superior athlete to Williams and would be fast enough to play corner, whereas Williams does not have that kind of sprint speed. If I'm not mistikaken, Parcells has alluded to Williams as a LB prospect - something about a "brick short" nickname re him being LB size, but honestly I don't have a link at this time to back that up.
Parcells would not have made this pick, and I think Jones made it the year beffore Parcells arrived. Williams switching to LB will be easier transition than that move for top draft pick DE Ware. Watch for Parcells to move Williams sometime this year.

Are you serious? Taylor is not a superior athelte to Williams. Better? Maybe. Superior? No.

You act like playing safty is not big deal and it's easy to find them. Trust me it's not. See Cowboys D last year without Woodson. He wasnt' the only reason but he was a very big part of it.

The comment BP made about Williams was he was a biscuit shy of being a LB. He made the comment becasue he was over the weight BP wanted him at. Not because he wanted him to play LB. Trust me. Williams will be playing S not LB. He'll finally get a chance to play SS which is his naturaul position. I read where they will play him closer to the line of scrimmage this year so they can utilize what he his good at but it will be S not LB.

Last edited by DFAN; 05-29-2005 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 05-29-2005   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunusguy
Generalizing, a top 10 overall is simply too much of premium to pay for someone who is suited only to play safety, whether its free or strong. These
2 positions are the least important in the whole defense and can usually be manned by slower and/or over-the-hill CBs (see Marcus Colemann/Houston Texans for reference). As far as Sean Taylor goes, I dunno maybe he's worth a top ten pick, but he is unquestionaly a superior athlete to Williams and would be fast enough to play corner, whereas Williams does not have that kind of sprint speed. If I'm not mistikaken, Parcells has alluded to Williams as a LB prospect - something about a "brick short" nickname re him being LB size, but honestly I don't have a link at this time to back that up.
Parcells would not have made this pick, and I think Jones made it the year beffore Parcells arrived. Williams switching to LB will be easier transition than that move for top draft pick DE Ware. Watch for Parcells to move Williams sometime this year.
I agree about the safeties positions being filled with later draft picks (like 2nd rounders). But if you could have Ronnie Lott with the 8th overall pick, would you take him? Not saying Williams is in Lott's league but he has that potential.

I also agree that Taylor is a superior athlete to Williams. But I don't believe that makes him a better football player. If you compared their rookie seasons (when Williams was playing out of position but the same position as Taylor):

Williams - 99 tackles, 2 sacks, 5 INTs
Taylor - 76 tackles, 1 sack, 4 INTs

Do you see Taylor using his superior athleticism to his adavantage? I don't.

Parcells didn't allude to Williams being a LB prospect. He said he was one bisquit away from being a LB (alluding that Williams might want to get into better shape). But I guess it's how you read the quote. With the LBs we have combined with Woodson's retirement, there's no way in hell Williams will be moved to LB.

BTW, Ware played quite a bit OLB in college. In the 3-4 scheme, he'll play OLB. When we use the 4-3 (nobody ever said we were going 3-4 full time), he'll play DE. There's not much difference between the two positions. If he has to cover a TE or RB, he's got the athleticism to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasguy346
I think the Cowboys have a chance of contending for the NFC East if they're able to keep Bledsoe on his feet. They've got the pieces in place to have an effective running game, and Drew can still let it fly with the best of them. Only problem is he's a statue in the pocket, and he'll live or die by his OLine. Their defense might take a while to get a grasp of the 3-4, but the new additions to the defensive side of the ball should pay immediate dividends. I think they have a good mix of veteran players and young players. Their biggest problem is being in the same division as the Eagles. Couple that with having to face Washington and their D twice a year and you've got a tough road to winning the division. I think they can be anywhere from a middle of the pack team to a playoff caliber team depending on the protection Drew gets.
Absolutely disagree about Dallas contending for the East (regardless of how well Bledsoe is protected). I've never been sold on Bledsoe. I consider him to be more like Dan Marino without the accuracy, quick release and decision making ability. By that I mean he's gotten by on his stats and his stats are only what they are because of the number of attempts.

He's averaged just over 500 passing attempts per season for his career. That's a whole lot considering he only had 66 attempts for the entire 2001 season.
Despite all those attempts, he's never thrown more than 30 TDs in a season. Heck, he's only thrown more than 25 three times in his career.

His career rankings:
Pass attempts - 7th all-time
Pass TDs - 18th all-time

6049 passing attempts, 221 passing TDs (or 1 TD for every 27 attempts). Compare that with say....Brett Favre?
7005 passing attempts, 376 passing TDs (or 1 TD for every 18.6 attempts).

That's a really big difference.

Bottom line, I don't think Bledsoe was an upgrade over Vinny. All we did was trade in for a younger model. In a way, it takes us a step back because it takes away snaps from Henson and Romo, the only two QBs on the roster that have a chance of being our long term answer. If they are or aren't the answer, how are you going to know if they're not playing?

But we never have problems with Washington. How good their defense is doesn't matter.
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Old 05-29-2005   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFAN
The comment BP made about Williams was he was a biscuit shy of being a LB. He made the comment becasue he was over the weight BP wanted him at. Not because he wanted him to play LB. Trust me. Williams will be playing S not LB. He'll finally get a chance to play SS which is his naturaul position. I read where they will play him closer to the line of scrimmage this year so they can utilize what he his good at but it will be S not LB.
Thank you - I stand corrected. But don't look now, because I think you just made my point for me because you said "I read where they will play him closer to the los this year so they can utilize what he is good at".
That's why they call them LBs - they are near the action as they back up the line. Ed Reed, taken in the same draft, is a better safety than Williams but he's too small to play LB. Fortunately Williams has that size. With the Ware and plans to play him as an OLB, Parcells will
probably play Williams on the inside - actually he's about the size as Greenwood, the guy that the Texans picked up from the Dolphins and he has 'bout the same kind of speed. Yup, I think Williams will gravitate to his natural position in the 3-4 as an ILB.
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