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Old 05-19-2012   #21
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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Originally Posted by TexanCR View Post
Oh dude, your credibility just went out the window with that reply
Very similar to the OP who suggested trading Ben Tate.
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Old 05-19-2012   #22
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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Sure they are. That's how Schaub put up over 9000 yds in two years and was headed toward another 4000 yd season before going down last season even with the league's leading rusher. The Texans are not a rushing team. They are a screw you either way they can team and do both very well (even with their barely above average QB and crap receivers) - the two play off each other.
But let us see what happens without a good running game! Schaub can put 1 million yds for all I care, but this team won't go far without it. The opposing D will blitz the QB at will! When Kubes was in Denver wining SBs, they had a great running attack & I'm sure Kubes likes to run!
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Old 05-20-2012   #23
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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But let us see what happens without a good running game! Schaub can put 1 million yds for all I care, but this team won't go far without it. The opposing D will blitz the QB at will! When Kubes was in Denver wining SBs, they had a great running attack & I'm sure Kubes likes to run!
What did I say? I said we are designed to be a balanced attack. We are not designed to run the ball 75% of the time, i.e. we are not a "running" football team. Even with a third string rookie QB starting 6 games and the league's last leading rusher the Texans were balanced last year. The Texans and Kubiak are not a rush heavy offense. They are designed for things to frequently give rushing looks. There is a difference. The fact Schaub has one of the best play fakes in the game greatly facilitates that.
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Old 05-20-2012   #24
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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What did I say? I said we are designed to be a balanced attack. We are not designed to run the ball 75% of the time, i.e. we are not a "running" football team. Even with a third string rookie QB starting 6 games and the league's last leading rusher the Texans were balanced last year. The Texans and Kubiak are not a rush heavy offense. They are designed for things to frequently give rushing looks. There is a difference. The fact Schaub has one of the best play fakes in the game greatly facilitates that.
Sorry Infantry- didn't mean to argue with you. I was just stating imo what this team likes to do. I'm sure balance is what Kubes like, but I think, from watching this team since the Kubes era- likes to run. I just think if you have Arian & Ben- you use them & I didn't mean run 75% of the time, more like 60%.
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Old 05-20-2012   #25
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What did I say? I said we are designed to be a balanced attack. We are not designed to run the ball 75% of the time, i.e. we are not a "running" football team. Even with a third string rookie QB starting 6 games and the league's last leading rusher the Texans were balanced last year. The Texans and Kubiak are not a rush heavy offense. They are designed for things to frequently give rushing looks. There is a difference. The fact Schaub has one of the best play fakes in the game greatly facilitates that.
I think by today's standards we are a running team. We run the ball more than most teams in a pass happy league.

And omg with schaubs play fakes. He doesn't do anything special. He's not poor at it, but the play design is what causes defenses to bite up. What he does after the play fake is far more impressive.

Teams bit on the play action when sage was the qb, teams bit on the pa when Yates was qb. All they need to do is not be lazy or stupid and follow through. There is no big skill set to executing the play fake in this offense.

The texans have one of the best play action offenses is a more appropriate statement.
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Old 05-20-2012   #26
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

Welker has signed his franchise tender - 9.5 mill.

Texans do not have that kind of spare change.
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Old 05-20-2012   #27
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

Texans Regular Season

Passing plays 46% - 467
Rushing plays 54% - 546

Texans' Opponents

Passing plays 59% - 538
Rushing plays 41% - 378

Texans went from 10th in pass attempts in 2010 to 30th in 2011.
Texans went from 19th in rush attempts in 2010 to 1st in 2011.
.
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Last edited by Playoffs; 05-20-2012 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 05-20-2012   #28
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Texans Regular Season

Passing plays 35% - 288/3506 yds.
Rushing plays 65% - 546/2448 yds.

Texans' Opponents

Passing plays 35% - 279/3035 yds.
Rushing plays 65% - 378/1536 yds.
That's just the completions. The Texans attempted 467 passes, and were sacked 33 times for a total of 500 passing plays. Add the QB scrambles to the passing plays (intended) and subract from the rushing attempts, and the Texans would have a darn near 50/50 split in pass/run ratio.

Of course, not a lot of teams have a 50/50 ratio, anymore. The Texans were 1st in the league in rushing attempts, 30th in passing attempts. That speaks to a) having a very good ground game, b) having leads in the 2nd half, and c) playing backup QBs over the last 6 games.

Edit: Just want to add a comment about Welker and the Texans. Not a great fit. Not that the Texans couldn't use a slot receiver such as Welker. Any team could. But Welker has more value to a team that runs a spread offense (like the Pats). Welker would not be an everydown player on this team. He would not be worth the $$$ he can command on the Pats or elsewhere.
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Old 05-20-2012   #29
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Sure they are. That's how Schaub put up over 9000 yds in two years and was headed toward another 4000 yd season before going down last season even with the league's leading rusher. The Texans are not a rushing team. They are a screw you either way they can team and do both very well (even with their barely above average QB and crap receivers) - the two play off each other.
Yep.

Hopefully they can keep Tate. Foster and Tate are a fantastic one-two punch, and either of them could carry the weight if one is injured.
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Old 05-20-2012   #30
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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Yep.

Hopefully they can keep Tate. Foster and Tate are a fantastic one-two punch, and either of them could carry the weight if one is injured.
I hope so too but the Texans are really good at letting people get away either for nothing or almost nothing.
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Old 05-20-2012   #31
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Texans Regular Season

Passing plays 46% - 467
Rushing plays 54% - 546

Texans' Opponents

Passing plays 59% - 538
Rushing plays 41% - 378

Texans went from 10th in pass attempts in 2010 to 30th in 2011.
Texans went from 19th in rush attempts in 2010 to 1st in 2011.
.
.
Piggybacking with the same basic info...

In terms of passing attempts, the Texans were near the bottom of the league. We were 30th with 467 attempts. The Lions were #1 with 666 attempts. Only the Niners and Broncos had fewer attempts than we did.

In terms of rushing attempts, we had 546 attempts. That tied us for 1st with the Broncos. The average was 436 attempts and the fewest rushing attempts were the Buccs with 346.

It's interesting to note that we had the 6th most overall offensive plays. That's our D giving us opportunities.

I don't how we couldn't be considered a rushing team at this point. But the numbers are skewed a bit because Schaub didn't play the whole season. We probably would have passed more but we would have had more sustained drives and had more rushing attempts as well.

I think our offense is more holistically designed than many offenses out there and the rush and pass work together as a single unit more.
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Old 05-20-2012   #32
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

No.

We have the best one two punch in the NFL.
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Old 05-20-2012   #33
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

I wouldn't trade Ben Tate yet, and probably never would. They spent a 2nd round pick on him, groomed him, and now he's proven he can play in this league. So I'd have to get a first rounder or equivalent in exchange for him, because drafting someone in the 2nd round and then trading them a few years later for less is pretty dumb, IMO. You're better off taking the production at that point. And FWIW, I do not view Wes Welker as a first round equivalent.

It's a tough call, because I kind of see our situation at RB being kind of like the Chargers a few years back when they had Tomlinson and Turner. Turner has proven he's an upper half of the league starter, but he's not an elite talent like Tomlinson was. Similar with Tate, in that I think he could be an upper half of the league starter, but he's no Arian Foster. So in the end, you deal Tate for a big payday or you take the production when you have him and let him walk when it's time for free agency (and prepare accordingly).
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Old 05-20-2012   #34
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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So in the end, you deal Tate for a big payday or you take the production when you have him and let him walk when it's time for free agency (and prepare accordingly).
Maybe the better topic would be, "When do the Texans trade Ben Tate, if ever?" And as long as Foster stays healthy and continues to produce, Tate will not want to re-sign with the Texans. And the Texans won't be able to pay two RBs big money, anyway.

Tate is under contract through 2013. I doubt that franchising Tate in 2014 just to facilitate a trade will be an option. So the best time to trade Tate would be after the 2012 season. But what would the Texans reasonably expect to get in return for Tate? I can't see the Texans receiving a 1st round pick. And I would rather keep Tate for the 2013 season if I could only receive a 2nd rounder. He could garner a 3rd round compensatory pick in 2015 if he leaves in free agency.

My guess is that Tate stays through his contract, and signs with the Skins in 2014. He's from the area, Washington runs the ZBS (if the Shannys will still be there), and the Skins love being aggressive in free agency.
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Old 05-20-2012   #35
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

No.
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Old 05-20-2012   #36
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

Lucky nailed it above.

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And omg with schaubs play fakes. He doesn't do anything special. He's not poor at it, but the play design is what causes defenses to bite up. What he does after the play fake is far more impressive.
BS. And when I say play fake I am talking about the totality of how he works the system. How when he actually hands it off he often bootlegs out with the exact same posture as if he had the ball where other QB's just stand there and watch what happens. How he conceals the ball when he doesn't. There are differences in qualities on how you do it. Carr was horrible and you could tell from a mile away whether he was actually going to hand the ball off - and that to remind you was with the same play design. He had two completely different postures and arm positions depending on what he was doing. Manning and Schaub are at the top of the league on concealing their intentions.

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I think our offense is more holistically designed than many offenses out there and the rush and pass work together as a single unit more.
Exactly. We are not designed with the thought of being a ram it down their throats rushing team and then only pass out of desperation or for big plays. Everything is meant to work together as you say holistically to meet any occasion as needed. The Texans still run a WCO.

People are confusing success with design. Yes the last two years we have had great success rushing the football. But let's not forget Kubiak was a QB and is known as a QB guru. He isn't trying to leave the QB out of the game.
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Old 05-20-2012   #37
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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And when I say play fake I am talking about the totality of how he works the system. How when he actually hands it off he often bootlegs out with the exact same posture as if he had the ball where other QB's just stand there and watch what happens. How he conceals the ball when he doesn't. There are differences in qualities on how you do it. Carr was horrible and you could tell from a mile away whether he was actually going to hand the ball off - and that to remind you was with the same play design. He had two completely different postures and arm positions depending on what he was doing. Manning and Schaub are at the top of the league on concealing their intentions.
Schaub's play fakes have always been a thing of beauty. He has always sold the play fake. Even when we had crap RBs behind him, defense still bit on the play fakes because Schaub does such a great job at selling them.

I love it when he fakes out the camera operator. But I hate it, too, because I don't get to see what's really going on.

Back in the day, this was one of my biggest knocks on HWWNBN when he was in this system. Besides having a totally different motion when he was handing off, he would also stop and then run after the running back to be able to be in position to recover the fumble on a botched exchange. Schaub is great at almost always making that same bootleg run, or some sort of drop back at the very least, on running plays.

I was pleased to see that TJ had a pretty good fake, too. I think that comes from being in a similar system for so long and from studying so much of Schaub's tape in college.
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Old 05-20-2012   #38
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

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Ok... Whatever. He averages 4 yards a carry and has never turned over the pig skin. I don't know what football world you live in but in my book, that's a solid running back.
ewww i have to admit i have seen a lot of him and i am NOT impressed with him, i wouldnt rank him above what tate has shown when he has been in. Tate would be an upgrade over Ellis....
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Old 05-20-2012   #39
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

We are now developing starters that will do very well in this offensive & defensive system. We should have back ups that allow us to let some vets go at the end of their contracts or even early without over spending. Maybe Schaub, Cody, both Smiths and Myers come to mind. We have a very good 1-2 RB tandem & if Tate chooses not to re-sign team friendly deal after 2013, we should have someone in wings waiting to be our #2. Same with most of our better players.

IMO, with or without Schaub we have a team that should go deep in playoffs. We cannot afford much in trades as we supposedly could not have in free agency. Tate stays. As most know, I was not a fan of Posey and am concerned we may need to draft WR high next year. A vet in a trade would be great but not with the price tag. I think Texans play with what we have and do well.

2013 draft should be very interesting with the package we should have including the comps I have seen projected. There will be some ammo if Smith chooses to trade up for WR or QB. We are becoming a dynasty type team & should be very selective with any moves. The only enemy I fear is injuries.
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Old 05-20-2012   #40
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Default Re: Would you trade Ben Tate for...

I think we need to let the games play themselves out before we jump to any conclusions
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